here's something to discuss (forgiveness)

first i should state i don't believe... but it's something i've wondered for awhile...

IF god and jesus are so forgiving, why are their 'real' followers (by real i don't mean they're better followers, just that they tend to stick closer to the bible then others....) so unforgiving... of anything and everything....

on a side note... they're also not supposed to judge, but leave that to god, yet they still judge...

so why do you think that is?


i personally think it's because somewhere they have their doubts and they need to convert otherp eople for their own peace of mind, and to confirm their belief.... of course that's not the only reason i think they do it... but i believe that plays a heavy part on it.

Im sure each one of them has their own reasons. If you think about it if all those people would just stick to their beliefs there would of been no crusades or inqusitions, just goes to show the beliefs arnt wrong, its what the people do with them

It's not just forgiveness, we fail miserably in the 'Love Thy Neighbor' arena.

I think many who call upon His name out loud today will hide their faces from His countenance when He returns, just and Adam and Eve hid from Him after their sin.

Forgive us Father, for we know not what we do.

The ones that "stick closesly to the bible" are better followers? thats funny.

(perspective of belief in a higher power but a non-follower of a particular faith)

religion is a necessary evil to pass on tradition/practices of spiritual pursuit. it is a tool of sociology. it is good because it keep spirituality alive and progressing forward. the pursuit to be a better person, to have hope to lean on, principles of love are all great ideas promoted through most practices of faith at a non-fundamentalist level.

now i believe fatihs are to be spring boards into our own personal journey. not an end, but a means.

funny jesus said he came to free the people from the bondage of the LAW by speaking of it being about one's heart intention. the followers turned right around to build a new set of LAWS to live and judge by... i think they missed his point entirely...

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Originally Posted by hazetwostep

funny jesus said he came to free the people from the bondage of the LAW by speaking of it being about one's heart intention. the followers turned right around to build a new set of LAWS to live and judge by... i think they missed his point entirely...

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yes! they did..and here we are, still missing the point.

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Originally Posted by PureEvil760

The ones that "stick closesly to the bible" are better followers? thats funny.

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dude, i even said it didn't mean that...

Sorry, I get it now. You were saying that the "real" followers know what thier doing and most others dont. agreed.

Well its more like the real followers dont know what thier doing and they will admit that. The others think they know somthing which is thier downfall.

yeah i remeber going in for my first confession and the priest kicking me out of the church because HE was so unforgiving

most true christians and very forgiving people but in reality the christian version of god is the only one whose really forgiving, the old testament god was a vengeful god full of wrath

if i do not judge you, how can i forgive you. either I or you has been wrongfully done. either I or you has to forgive.
If you are a true follower of Christ, forgiveness is in you, as is the holy Spirit.
sooooo.... I forgive everyone, for everything and anything.

Forgiveness is necessary in developing inner freedom; it helps us attain a great deal of inner peace. Without love and an understanding that we all have faults, forgiveness will remain out of our grasp. Both acceptance and forgiveness are an essential element in following in the footsteps of Christ.

Most view forgiveness as being a benefit only to those we choose to forgive. It certainly benefits others, but when we forgive anotherâ??s trespass, we are more so freeing ourselves from our own burdens. Whether the burdens be resentment, bitterness, anger, pride, feelings of contempt, or whatever the force keeping us from realizing inner peace. When we forgive, we release ourselves from these negative forces. All of which prevent us from loving as Christ commanded.

We often times, hold on to these forces as if our lives depended on them. What most are unaware of is that our very lives depend upon our ability, and willingness to break free from them, and forgive graciously. (Matthew 6:14-15) Itâ??s unconditional love that enables the spiritual man to forgive without measure. Without forgiveness, we have absolutely no hope of becoming what God wants us to be. (Free)

Why many Christians choose not to forgive, I do not know.

:twocents:

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Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho

first i should state i don't believe... but it's something i've wondered for awhile...

IF god and jesus are so forgiving, why are their 'real' followers (by real i don't mean they're better followers, just that they tend to stick closer to the bible then others....) so unforgiving... of anything and everything....

on a side note... they're also not supposed to judge, but leave that to god, yet they still judge...

so why do you think that is?


i personally think it's because somewhere they have their doubts and they need to convert otherp eople for their own peace of mind, and to confirm their belief.... of course that's not the only reason i think they do it... but i believe that plays a heavy part on it.

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Iam sorry but I dont think your statment is true, even tho I think
your statement was a little confusing, I dont say that to put you
down, iam just not sure I know what the heart of your qustion really is. But I can only speak for my self, if some one sins aganst
me I forgive them because christ has forgiven me. even tho it is not always easy. when my ex wife sinned aganst me by sleeping
with another man and then marrying him, at first I was angry as I had a right to, just as God was angry with man when he sinned
aganst him. But becuse of Gods love He chose to forgive man, and made a way were mans sins could be forgiven through Christ.
all the chritians I know hold to this same out look on life and forgiveness. Now as for judging Iam not sure what it is that you are driving at, what specific judgements are we talking about here?
what is it that we are judging?:)

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Originally Posted by jdmarcus59

Iam sorry but I dont think your statment is true, even tho I think
your statement was a little confusing, I dont say that to put you
down, iam just not sure I know what the heart of your qustion really is. But I can only speak for my self, if some one sins aganst
me I forgive them because christ has forgiven me. even tho it is not always easy. when my ex wife sinned aganst me by sleeping
with another man and then marrying him, at first I was angry as I had a right to, just as God was angry with man when he sinned
aganst him. But becuse of Gods love He chose to forgive man, and made a way were mans sins could be forgiven through Christ.
all the chritians I know hold to this same out look on life and forgiveness. Now as for judging Iam not sure what it is that you are driving at, what specific judgements are we talking about here?
what is it that we are judging?:)

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i'ts not everyone, infact i believe i illustrated this point already... but i'll do it again

think of those solid firm believers, the fanatics.... 'god is right, if you don't follow you're wrong and you have to go to hell' the people who are constantly trying to convert everyone they meet....

they also share this thought that it's their job to judge you as a person...

a perfect example.. the religious people who show up at gay pride and gay marches and everythign else, shouting their slogans, and basicly calling anyone who's on the opposite side of them the devil, full of sin, and etc....

THATS what i'm talking about... it's not their place to judge, nor is it their place to hand down judgement. (i'm not nessicarily talking about those who've actually been 'sinned' against, perhaps the title is misleading)

but these fanatics treat 'sinners' as if they're lower then dirt and nothing, and i have seen it over and over, and i really don't understand it...

even the bible says it's no humans place to judge, it's a humans place to turn the other cheek (or forgive and forget) and let your god hand down the judgement...

it only helps my case that the people who usually exempt this are the "real followers" (the ones who pretty much follow the new testament to the tee, and some of the old as well) but they can't follow the part about it's not their place to judge, they actually think it's their place to judge someone...

hope that enlightens you to what i mean...

i think forgiveness and forgiving the self is a hard thing to master.

i agree with taburn, it makes us slaves.

but to fogive yourself can be on of the hardest things in the world.

peace

snow

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Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho

i'ts not everyone, infact i believe i illustrated this point already... but i'll do it again

think of those solid firm believers, the fanatics.... 'god is right, if you don't follow you're wrong and you have to go to hell' the people who are constantly trying to convert everyone they meet....

they also share this thought that it's their job to judge you as a person...

a perfect example.. the religious people who show up at gay pride and gay marches and everythign else, shouting their slogans, and basicly calling anyone who's on the opposite side of them the devil, full of sin, and etc....

THATS what i'm talking about... it's not their place to judge, nor is it their place to hand down judgement. (i'm not nessicarily talking about those who've actually been 'sinned' against, perhaps the title is misleading)

but these fanatics treat 'sinners' as if they're lower then dirt and nothing, and i have seen it over and over, and i really don't understand it...

even the bible says it's no humans place to judge, it's a humans place to turn the other cheek (or forgive and forget) and let your god hand down the judgement...

it only helps my case that the people who usually exempt this are the "real followers" (the ones who pretty much follow the new testament to the tee, and some of the old as well) but they can't follow the part about it's not their place to judge, they actually think it's their place to judge someone...

hope that enlightens you to what i mean...

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no it is not right for a christian to judge anyone else you are right
in saying so, but sadly we live in a world were people go out and do all sorts of things that they belive God told them to do so, that is why we have the bible to test all things to see if they are from God. if these people are going around hitting people over the head with there bibles then then we can see from scriputure that they are just as wrong as the people they are judging. My hope is that
you will not judge all christian by the few. peace:)

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Originally Posted by jdmarcus59

no it is not right for a christian to judge anyone else you are right
in saying so, but sadly we live in a world were people go out and do all sorts of things that they belive God told them to do so, that is why we have the bible to test all things to see if they are from God. if these people are going around hitting people over the head with there bibles then then we can see from scriputure that they are just as wrong as the people they are judging. My hope is that
you will not judge all christian by the few. peace:)

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i never do...

as i've said numerous times, i'm not christian, you are... if we can leave it at that, we're fine... even my own brother whom i love more than almost anything, is christian... but he repsects me, and i respect him...

it's the ones who tell me 'i'm wrong' when there is actually no solid proof, as if that's the one solid answer (i understand the concept of faith, but the ones who i speak of have no idea of the diffrence between faith and fact)... the ones who incestantly tell me i'm wrong and try to convert me is the ones i have a problem with....

it just boils down to repsect.. i'm all up for debating, debating doesn't really get me angry or judgemental...

kinda hard to explain thoroughly, but i feel i should be able to state my opinoins and you should be able to state yours, and we can debate each others opinions on what I/YOU feel is right or wrong, but you also have to admit and accept nither of us actually know, we only feel and hold faith... agnostic, atheist, christian, buddhist or anything else, none can be scientificly proven, so it is left up to beliefs, opinons and feelings.

there are no facts in religion period. i mean, the whole thing is about faith to begin with, whether you're for a god or not..

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Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho

i never do...

as i've said numerous times, i'm not christian, you are... if we can leave it at that, we're fine... even my own brother whom i love more than almost anything, is christian... but he repsects me, and i respect him...

it's the ones who tell me 'i'm wrong' when there is actually no solid proof, as if that's the one solid answer (i understand the concept of faith, but the ones who i speak of have no idea of the diffrence between faith and fact)... the ones who incestantly tell me i'm wrong and try to convert me is the ones i have a problem with....

it just boils down to repsect.. i'm all up for debating, debating doesn't really get me angry or judgemental...

kinda hard to explain thoroughly, but i feel i should be able to state my opinoins and you should be able to state yours, and we can debate each others opinions on what I/YOU feel is right or wrong, but you also have to admit and accept nither of us actually know, we only feel and hold faith... agnostic, atheist, christian, buddhist or anything else, none can be scientificly proven, so it is left up to beliefs, opinons and feelings.

there are no facts in religion period. i mean, the whole thing is about faith to begin with, whether you're for a god or not..

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yes you have the right to belive in what you want, I can not and will not take that right from you, good luck in your path that you have chosen.:)