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Why is it that things are rather than are not. That is to say why are we here as opposed to not? If you are a beliver of the Big Bang, what caused the point of singularity to 'bang' into the existence we know it as we do.
Now Im not a Christian Catholic are Jew but Id like to quote somthing IV read about Moses. When God spoke to Moses and gave him the 10 comandment Moses askd God what his name is so that he could tell the vilagers or whoever who spoke to him, and God said 'I AM THAT I AM'.
We will never know...
Why do you say that?
If we still are, and we were, how do we know God's language? We created our own, and nobody saw him watching. The big bang was a contraction of energy. God must be the universe. He was the big bang.
I am of the same mind that God is the universe and every single aspect of it from material to organic to psycological and byond it and I find it a little confusing how people can deny Gods existence, hence why I made the post.
PS. I doubt God has a 'language' perse. God must have some way of comunication but I doubt based upon a dialect, rather possible some sort of quantum exhange of information, but this is besides the point.
That is like asking what is outside of our universe. We just don't know yet. Humanity will find the answers... to any naysayers, consider this. During the Dark Ages, the average person (peasant) would not comprehend a computer. But look at humans now - using computers every damn day. It will take time for us to understand the universe and it's origins.
Computers are man-made. Easy for human to dominate.Quote:
Originally Posted by couch-potato
as for my answerQuote:
Originally Posted by couch-potato
i think this is called religious scientist(or something like this), its a religion that believes in energy, and the world as god. as everything around them are god. that god is not a man but everything living. They do not worship one man, but they warship his energy and his spirit in all living things.
My grandmother is like this and i had to go to church with her when i was a little girl for YEARS omg i barely go now.. but sometimes i go back when i feel like everything has gone bad and i need a more positive environment with a warm feelings.
it's a stupid question. you're implying there has to be a religious type god with a beard because something must have been our original existance, you can call this god if you want, but you make it sound like a guy created the stuff that became the big bang
i find it more confusing that people can accept that god exists that easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
There are three definitions of God that you can't deny.Quote:
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.
Same old song.
"How can a universe exist without a creator? It can't!"
"How can a creator even more inredible than the universe exist without a creator? Well it just can!"
Thus we have the most important doctrine; if you don't have an answer yet, god did it!
Who or what came before god? If god was the creator, who created him?
and this is why there is most likely, no god... not as we know itQuote:
Originally Posted by sonic titan
I don't however have a problem with an advanced species creating our Universe - just for the hell of it. If that's god then we can all be happy :thumbsup:
You touch on a scripture that shows that Jesus is the God of Moses. There is no more jew or gentile, we are all one.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Exod 3 (OLD TESTAMENT)
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
John 8 (NEW TESTAMENT)
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
If you noticed i made sure that i did not once use the word he when describing God for that exact reason. All that Im saying is that things are. I dont believe that science came say why this is, they can at the moment say everything came from the big bang then in the future say where that came from and where the cause of that came from into infinity but they wont ever why things are rather than are not. This I believe is a question each person has to ask themselves, or let a religious man tell them.Quote:
Originally Posted by meloncoly
The big bang, and our universe, is the cause of two parallel dimensions colliding with another. We are the fragments of that collision.
It's been proven in theory; String theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't understand the obsession that the world has with God. Lets say that despite what we know in science about how vast existence is, that there really is a god. Why would he care about us so much? It's proven that there has to be life on other planets (It was just proven that Mars did, and still has water on it). Why would he bother to send us Jesus in the first place, when there are probably more advanced species out there besides us.
I really think God is not only an excuse to explain what we don't know, but to enforce that we are the most important species ever, when that is certainly not true.
I believe that god doesn't exist. I think that the human mind cannot possibly comprehend the real reason for everything. Just try to make something up. Anything you try to make up will not make sense for one simple reason. Time. No matter what you say there will always be the question, well what came before that? This leads me to believe that time must be an illusion or else the universe is impossible. I can also delve into how history is basically already predetermined to explain some things. Tell me if you want to hear but i dont want to bore anybody.
"This leads me to believe that time must be an illusion or else the universe is impossible."
We live inside of time. God made the clock so he lives outside of it. Without the lights that are in the sky (hanging clock), I don't know how we would keep track of time. If the sun never went down, how would we keep track of time? It will be ONE long day.
A day without clouds and plenty of sunshine. So in the future, time will be a thing of the past.
Loop Quantum GravityQuote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
(It's a tentative answer, one which needs further refinement and verification, but is a groundbreaking one which blows "creationism" out of the water. Finally, for once, science has a mathematical framework what happened before the Big Bang and what caused the Bang. The universe exploded from a collapsed universe. It "bounced". The idea itself isn't new but "Using this new math, something amazing happens: at T=0, the volume of the Universe is not zero, and the density is not infinite. In other words, the math still works, even at The Big Moment.")
Great post Oh My High very intresting but again it does not answer why things are rather than are not. Thats the main question of the thread, i guess all that other bullshit i put in there threw people off. 'Why would he care about us so much?' ( quote from Boiler Up ) You are ascribing human charicteristics to God, you enen call God "he". God is not outside of us nor is God inside the only place you can find God if you ask me is in the fact that things are rather than are not.
That's why you say "if you are a believer in the Big Bang," because it's a belief. It's a hypothesis... we just don't know. But there is definitely more plausible evidence pointing towards God not being in existence. I'm not trying to put anyone down who does believe in God, though. I'm just saying, you cannot argue legitimately for God, because there is absolutely no evidence that shows his existence, except for the Bible, which was man-made... so the Bible itself cannot be used as an argument to prove his existence either! So in other words, it's just a belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Now, personally, I am agnostic. I don't care if he does or does not exist... and I will not completely deny his existence either. Why? Because I think he could exist. But I would also say that more evidence points to science, and not faith.
But I will point you to this link: Arguments Against Christianity
Can we forget i mentioned the big bang or the bible, i fucked up. But if there was no God why is there things to study and beings to study them. The fact is that there is an objective world and a subjective world both intimatly related. This relation to me is God. But Im asking you science buffs I guess to give me your answer to the question Why is it that things are rather than are not. My perposal is if God did not exist ( Lets get this straight im not talking about any god in specific, espealy not the christian one ) there would be nothing no big bang and no ensitine so descover it ( yes i know enstine did not discover it but i hope you get the point)
*Sigh*.... And here I go again getting tumbled into another one of these...
Before we begin I suggest we drop all preconceived notions on what you think God is. The simplest and most scientifically feasible answer is that God is energy. All energy in the universe, detectable and undetectable by us. So you can see how using the word "God" can confuse an argument as the word conjures up any one of the following images:
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.
The main word that irks me when describing "God" is "being." We are beings, we are entities. That which is "God" is simply the universe. We are part of this as well.
AtmanWalter, I am going to attempt to answer your question now... You want to know why things ARE as opposed to are NOT. Well what you need to understand is that those two concepts are RELATIVE. They are relative to perception, and the perceiver. What I mean by this, is that if something is beautiful to you, it is beautiful because you perceived it to be so. Another person might perceive it to be not so beautiful. Now, I know you are referring to the tangible aspect of the universe as opposed to human opinion of tangible aspects, and Im getting to that.
What you need to understand is that we(and by we, I refer to all creatures on Earth) exist in the tangible dimensions of the universe, more specifically the first 3. Pure energy exists on a far wider dimensional spectrum and has a completely different set of qualities that define what IS or ISNT. This is something that we as humans cant seem to comprehend yet.
Things exist for us, in your words they ARE, because they are comprised of matter, and matter is energy that is condensed and specialized. So when energy coallesces to a specified purpose to the point that it is then able to exist in the 3 basic dimensions that we tangible creatures can comprehend, it then becomes perceiveable to us and thus IS. So remember that just because you perceive that something ISNT... doesnt mean it truly isnt.
In the beggining, things weren't, things came to be, as a consequence of many things that were not things before being things, for those things were something else. :D
As the original link suggests, and as suggested by others such as Stephen Weinberg and Michael Shermer, we are winners in a cosmic lottery. The "finely-tuned" universe and our "finely-tuned" position in the cosmos is simply by chance as, as the speculation goes, there were many universes with different laws of physics, different values necessary for life, and seems "finely-tuned" only insomuchas it's the way things turned out (the post hoc fallacy). Granted, of course, this is only speculation but there is the wonderful little gem called the educated guess. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Science may never have the final answer of "why THIS way rather than THAT" but it's better than invoking god, which certainly doesn't answer anything ("Why THIS god rather than THAT").
The universe is a loop, alway expanding to its limit then compressing back into a singularity. Questions of how it all started are moot its has always been going on. If there is an Overbeing, then they are not bound by our petty perspecitve of time. Imagine if you stood outside of time, all at once
Everything is currently happening
Everything has already happnen
Everything is yet to happen
This would be the nesscary point of view of the creator of the universe, so when is not so important as it relates to why, but rather the essence of the act.
Ill make my proposition of ARE a little more clear, there is the physical reality im talking about of couse but what hasnt come up to now is the subjective ARE. There are objective things to be percived such as the universe or a beautiful woman and there are subjective things doing the seeing and perciving. Lets say you take out the universe or all the objective things about it or as you call it 'the tangible dimensions of the universe' what would happen to the subjective thing ( id like to call it the human spirit ) would it then percive nothing?, according to my interpertation of what you said it ( the subjective thing ) would still be able to percive the higher energy which you talk about, well lets hypotheticly take that away as well for the sake of argument. So now we have Nothing to be percived all that is left is the subjective which without an objective isnt realy a subjective, it aswell is nothing. So we can conclude that subject and obejct are codependnet. ( id perform the same logical experiement in the reverse but dont wana fill too much space :P) So the fact of our 'world' is that there are things to be seen and seers to see them and a relation between the two making them codependent. So walter what the hell does this bullshit have to do with God?! We cant find God by scientific objectivism, we certainly cant find God through blind faith to a religion, and we cant find God only through individual perspective. Where we can find God if you ask me is in the relation of subject and object, the relation of the objective tool of science and the subjective seeker. With no one to use science there is no science, thus disproving that science is all.
Id like to hear more about your energy thing tho, what are the higher ones you alude to?
My point exactly. We can not know how it all began because no matter what, our little human brains will not be able to comprehend it. Its like teaching a dog calculus. Also, i think it would be better to view time as not time but as another coordinate. Like when you say meet me at the intersection of 5th street and 10th avenue at 3pm. The 3pm is just another coordinate. Its hard to explain but i remember i read some stuff on time travel a couple of years ago and it explains it pretty well. There was also some stuff that i cant remember right now about howif you are at a higher altitude time actually goes by faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by ncnavguy
I think what im trying to do with this thread is say that science isnt the end all. It could be called a map of the world, but lets not forget about the map maker for he too is equaly important, not more not less, equaly.
Physicists, and Taoist before them, would say that there are two worlds:
Manifestations (All Matter)
Mystery (Energy)
Energy can never be destroyed but only changes forms. Sound suspiciously like cultures definition of the spirit ehh. Nothing can exist w/o energy of some sort in the universe, yet energy must have a mass to attach itself to. The main split from the western religion's definition is that if you consider energy the "spirit" the universe, you would then have to accept that rocks have spirits,birds have spirits,heathens have spirits, as all these carbon forms contain some form of energy.
Which is exactly what I accept/belive, so now we have Manifestation (All Matter) and Mystery (Energy) but we also have their interlation and that is where my definition of God lies, where the two become one. Im pretty sure in most eatern philosophies and religions that is called non-duality.
Why do you assume that in the absence of a higher intelligence, the universe would end up not existing instead of existing? What would cause the universe to prefer non-existence to existence?Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Quite frankly, I don't know why existence exists, and neither do you. I've thought about the possibilities, but without any good evidence all I can really do is speculate.Quote:
That is to say why are we here as opposed to not? If you are a beliver of the Big Bang, what caused the point of singularity to 'bang' into the existence we know it as we do.
Let me ask you this. Why does God exist instead of not exist? What caused God to come into existence? Did he just create himself? If God can create himself, why can't a universe create itself? It seems that if anything is going to spontaneously pop into existence, a simple singularity is a lot more easy to believe than an extremely complex intelligent being.
As far as I can tell, the only way intelligence arises in the universe is over millions and millions of years of natural selection creating complex nervous systems. Complex systems like intelligent beings require explanations for how that complexity arose, and with living beings we have an explanation. With God we do not. It seems implausible that an extremely complex intelligence would just pop out of nowhere for no apparent reason.
A few things to consider when thinking about the reason why the universe exists instead of not existing:
1) The total energy in the universe is zero. When you add up all the energy forces in the universe, they exactly cancel each other out, such that we do not need to break the laws of conservation of matter or energy to explain the existence of matter and energy.
2) On the quantum level, pairs of particles are spontaneously creating themselves and then spontaneously annihilating themselves all the time everywhere. In rare cases these pairs of particles can be ripped apart by some force in the split second before they annihilate each other, which is why we know they're there. Is a God required to explain the creation of each and every one of these particles? If not, why is a God required to explain the singularity at the beginning of the universe?
3) If the universe did not exist, we would not be here to ask these questions. The very fact that we are capable of asking questions means that we live in a universe that is capable of evolving complex conscious beings. If there are an infinite number of universes, then logically every possible thing must exist somewhere. Since life forms are possible combinations of particles, they will exist in some subset of those universes, and we inhabit one of them. And really, there is no reason to suppose that having no universes would be a more likely scenario than having an infinite number of universes without a God to create everything.
4) If you don't know the answer to something, for example the question "Why does the universe exist?", you have to admit that you don't know. You can't just make up an answer and say you're right just because nobody else has been able to prove any other theory to be correct. You have to come up with evidence for your God theory, too.
What's your evidence that Moses even existed? I have yet to see any.Quote:
Now Im not a Christian Catholic are Jew but Id like to quote somthing IV read about Moses. When God spoke to Moses and gave him the 10 comandment Moses askd God what his name is so that he could tell the vilagers or whoever who spoke to him, and God said 'I AM THAT I AM'.
fair enough I suppose. I don't see science (rightly understood) as claiming to have all the answers, or sometimes even any answers. Science is a method of progression through questioning. And God is an answer. God is just a justification to stop exploring, learning, and growing.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Well lets get this straight i never assumed God was only a higher inteligence.
'Why does God exist instead of not exist? What caused God to come into existence? Did he just create himself? If God can create himself, why can't a universe create itself?' The universe is one aspect of God so like God is self creating. God to me is not a higher inteligence only but he all of existence from matter to life to psychological and beyond. Now the nature of this self creating im not sure of. But I think there is somthing in us as human beings that has been there since the big bang and hte creation of our univers that is on its way to self realizing. May I ask your thoughts on what is evolving and where is it going? Does it have a destination or is it random?
Again I apologize for my refrence to the big bang in my opening statments, its a completly differnt conversation.
Im not citing moses as a scientific reference nor do i take the bible to be fact, nor have i read the damn thing. I just thought it was a kool saying.
May I add that God is probly the most intricate and complicated and misunderstood word in all languages because it has no objective proffs. The only way to understand it is to ask your self what is God. I mean the words existed as long as man almost so it must ahve some reality to it, a very subjective and even personalized one if you ask me.
I really hope everybody realizes that this statement is an oxymoron. BoilerUp Im not trying to attack you but I strongly feel the need to point out first of all that String Theory is not by definition a theory. A theory has a defined outline and methodology that anybody can test and prove or disprove. String theorists have been trying to make the math work and then create a matching model that can coexist without error for over 50 years. There has been no major progress in string theory since the 70s. In fact I just attended a debate in Washington D.C. with Richard Krauss on that very subject a few months back.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilerUp
The second thing I would like to mention is that anybody using Wikipedia as their only definitive source of information is setting themselves up for embarrassment. Yes, it has much useful information in there, and some of it is correct, but not all. It is the "online encyclopedia anybody can edit." Is that what you want at your back when you are spouting off self-truths??
String theory has some right ideas and its headed in the right direction compared with other things, but string theorists are too obsessed with the math and forget to think about the model.
GOD does exist. If you believe there's evil, then you have to believe there's good.
Here ya go... this is a thread I started a while back to post my current view on how things might be.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
To address your paragraph, I would have to agree with you at this juncture that subjective and objective are codependant. To remove all objective events in the universe leaving only subjective would create a completely different universe, though, with a completely different set of rules. Maybe there are dimensions where this exists, however, and it can be somehow be perceived in ways we cant fathom. Im not quite sure, but its an interesting thought. And I would also like to add that I agree with you that science is not all. By ANY means. There is Science, and there is faith. By faith Im not referring to religion or spirituality, but simply faith. Faith that we are here walking around on this planet doing the things that we are wondering if we are really doing or not.
Good and evil are opinions. They are relative to the observer. What you view is evil I might not. There can be no universal constant for good and evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenaline Rush