"Sicko", Moores best yet.

SiCKO Is Michael Moore's Best and Most Powerful Documentary
By David Corn, TheNation.com. Posted June 23, 2007.

Michael Moore's new movie is a dead-on dissection of America's sick healthcare system. Funny, sad and moving, it's the best of his films.


In 1971, Edgar Kaiser, the son of the founder of Kaiser Permanente, one of the first big HMOs, went to see John Ehrlichman, a top aide to President Nixon, to lobby the Nixon White House to pass legislation that would expand the market for health maintaped, went like this:


Ehrlichman: I had Edgar Kaiser come in...talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because the less care they give them, the more money they make.

President Nixon: Fine.
The next day, Nixon publicly announced he would be pushing legislation that would provide Americans "the finest health care in the world."

When tapes of the Nixon-Ehrlichman conversation and Nixon's subsequent public statement are played halfway through Michael Moore's new movie SiCKO, it is one of the film's more revealing moments. By this point in the film, Moore has already demonstrated that health insurance companies and HMOs are parasitic villains that routinely deny necessary medical care to make more bucks -- even when their money-grubbing leads to the death of patients. Looking for the original sin that led to the present mess, Moore zeroes in on this Nixonian moment, which encapsulates the film's premise that the United States health care system is defined by a fundamental conflict: profit versus care, and -- no surprise -- profit beats care.

Moore makes this point magnificently in SiCKO, which is the best film in the Moore canon. I say this as one who had a mixed reaction to Fahrenheit 9/11. (See here.) This time around, Moore has crafted a tour de force that his enemies will have a tough time blasting (though they will still try). It's not as tendentious as his earlier works. It posits no conspiracy theories. The film skillfully blends straight comedy, black humor, tragedy, and advocacy. You laugh, you cry -- literally. And you get mad.AlterNet: Home

I was actually pretty disappointed by it, and went in with high hopes. Not that he didn't make some excellent points, but the overal presentation wasn't very convincing. Rather than making his contentions through statistics, facts, figures etc, he seems to have cherry-picked whatever facts backed up his arguments. All he did was take horror stories from America and stories of happiness and success from socialist medical systems. That's a bit rediculous, considering I could go to any country with a half competent institution and find stories of either horror or hapiness if I just find the right person.

When looking at the Canadian medical system, and the Americans going to Canada to recieve treatment, he left an imression that we live under some socialist paradise. No mention whatsoever of the shortage of doctors and nurses, of the exceedingly long waiting lists for major surgeries, or the lack of critical equipment like MRI's and the such (albeit the equipment shortage isn't too bad as of late).
This is not to say I don't appreciate our medical system, Canada still rates much higher than the states by most international organizations, but its' a tossup. I've seen Rheumatologists, Neurologists, GP's, and Neurosurgeons again and again. I'm ever grateful that I didn't have to pay a single penny, especially since I'd never be able to afford even one of these trips in my current financial situation, but you also have to keep in mind that it takes an average of 6-8 months to see any of these (for me).

He probably should have mentioned as well that the socialist medical systems in Europe are indeed very good, but that's because they allow private practice as well. Everybody in North America is so bent on the notion of outright rejection of socialist or privitized medical, that nobody considers we could perhapse take the best of both. Extremes are seldom the answer. Funny how Moore presented it like Britian and France were 100% socialist.

And lastly, he argued the superiority of certain medical systems based on average life expectancy. Life expectancy has far more factors to it than what medical system is available, including national diet, lifestyle, and climate. I have no doubt that the sunny climate and more laid-back lifestyle of Cuba contributes to their longevity, or the fact that in France people work 4 days a week and take more time to relax.


America desperately needs to fix its medical system and start taking care of it's people, or more accurately start putting its people first. It seems Republicans have so thoroughly managed to instil a fear of SOCIALISM DUN DUN DUNNNNN.... that Americans treat it like a dirty word in and or itself and fear eternal hellfire if they only consider the possibilities of such.

Am I the only one who believes we can accomplish more when we drop extremist ideologies and start living in balance?

Mr. Grey, I certainly can entertain the notion of preserving private medical care, but we need a comprehensive plan that would include all people having free medical (I realize that nothing is free and we'd have to increase taxes on the rich to pay for it), but the rich could still have their high cost medical. The VA system, If not underfunded, works well, and yes there is a wait to see a specialist, but if it is an emergency like a cancer, they'll send you to a specialist in your area. I personally have VA and an HMO and use VA for my Meds (8.00 per scrip) and my HMO for emergencys and normal illnesses. I see a VA Dr. twice a year and do a comprehensive blood test that checks all my Vitals, PSA etc. I could probably use VA exclusively and would but for the fact my wife has no medical except my Union retirement plan, so I pay 260.00 a mo. for her basically. The Va basically costs me 100-150 per mo. for meds and dr. visits.

I dont unsterstand the way the health system works over in the states.If you dont have insurance what happens if you need a op?I know our nhs system is in a bit of a state but at it seems better than what goes on in the states.Can anyone give me a quick run down on how it works?thanks . dave

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Originally Posted by postmandave

I dont unsterstand the way the health system works over in the states.If you dont have insurance what happens if you need a op?I know our nhs system is in a bit of a state but at it seems better than what goes on in the states.Can anyone give me a quick run down on how it works?thanks . dave

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I believe the deal is that no doctor can deny you service, but you'll be in debt so deep you can never expect to get out. If you're awaiting a transplant, you get put at the bottom of the priority list behind those who can pay. I'm not sure what priority they'd give you if you're broke.

your right gandalf about the other stories moore leaves out, but he just wants to prove his point. the movie was long enough.

and i was so happy to see him tackle "SOCIALISM!" and how its not so EVIL!

extremes need to be destroyed, it's ruining the world.

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Originally Posted by medicinal

(I realize that nothing is free and we'd have to increase taxes on the rich to pay for it)

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since when have the rich ever funded any government give away in this country. once again the middle class will be hit with huge tax hikes to fund another mismanaged government program. the very people who will scrimp and save to be able to afford something better than the substandard government care that will be offered, will also be paying for the bureaucracy created to run a system doomed to failure.

The idea of socialized ANYTHING is bad to me. And the rich shouldn't have to pay more of anything. The whole notion of taking from the rich and giving to the poor is shady to me. They pay more taxes anyway.

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Originally Posted by rebgirl420

[COLOR="Magenta"]The idea of socialized ANYTHING is bad to me.

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Hmmmm, does that include the socialized postal service, education system, military, welfare, disability income support, etc? I tell's ya, it's nice not having to pay for my many visits to the doctor and specialists. Of course one could say "let the poor rot if they don't have the money" (IE me), but that's why you have such a larger rich/poor gap in the states and a considerably larger underclass. I don't consider it acceptable that parents have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to get by, while in Canada land of EVIL SOCIALISM, we have a smaller rich/poor gap, a much higher income and spending for middle class (with an average wage of $50,000 a year), and the average person is working 1 job to support themselves.

Actually I believe that welfare should be eliminated and the education system is completely screwed up. And socialism doesn't work. People begin to realize that they dont have to work to get the same damn thing that the working people do. Why work when you can get it for free? Not everyone has a good work ethic.

...."let them eat cake"

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Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey

Hmmmm, does that include the socialized postal service, education system, military, welfare, disability income support, etc?

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i don't know about your side of the border, but down here this shit don't work worth a damn. every time the government steps in and tries to play big brother, they just screw it all up. the larger a society becomes the more difficult it is to keep an eye on their representatives and 300,000,000 is just too freakin' big. maybe with a tenth of that number, like up in your neck of the woods, it might be possible to keep the crooks in check, but here the fox has had his run of the hen house for quite a while.

I heard about a woman in America who was vomiting blood but she had no insurance so she was shit out of luck and she died....

That's so ridiculous. Health care is not a good to be sold for a profit like bicycles, it's a life-or-death thing, and it shouldn't be treated like just another corporation that caters to the rich Americans and leaves the poor in the streets. I guess Canada is just more liberal.

your details on the story are wrong. it was apathy that killed her, not lack of insurance.

so you know the whole story then?

Who has seen this movie and how? Did you download it or have an promotional copy? One of my friends used to get movies before they were released, copies intended for media to pre screen and review and stuff but not in the last year or so.

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Originally Posted by Sugarblaster

so you know the whole story then?

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Troubled LA hospital could lose license after woman dies on emergency room floor - U.S./ West Region - BostonHerald.com

It sounds like a case of a bad hospital that will probably be shut down as compared to the health care system as a whole.

I think federal law mandates that if a person walks into an E.R. they have to be treated....how many operations, baby deliveries are there per year of illegal immigrants?

Have a good one!:s4:

thanks for pulling up the story on king, p4b. this is a perfect example of why politics and medicine don't mix in the us. king has had a politically motivated practice of hiring based not on qualifications, but on race. they have filled the hospital with staff that is politically protected and lack the normal motivation of the fear of being fired. laziness, apathy and corruption have become the hallmarks of american politics and these characteristics are deadly when they are allowed to flourish in our medical institutions.

though it has been said that bad medical care is better than no medical care, why should we aim for the bottom?

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Originally Posted by rebgirl420

The idea of socialized ANYTHING is bad to me. And the rich shouldn't have to pay more of anything. The whole notion of taking from the rich and giving to the poor is shady to me. They pay more taxes anyway.

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This from a woman that had her parents working two jobs to pay for her medical treatment. The elites have no comprehension of the commoners dillemas, "let them eat cake" is more like let them eat shit. I've got mine, fuck you. How about the woman that died on the hospital emergency floor, no-one would even look at her and she was vomiting blood, and how about the hospitals dropping off patients off on skid row Because they had no ability to pay and no address, even one dude in a wheelchair? My adult daughter has a herniated abdoman and the dr. said unless you come in under life threatining circumstances, we won't operate, she is in constant pain. Our medical system is broken and only works for the rich. We need universal health care. I don't see that happening anytime soon as the lobbiests own our government

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Originally Posted by rebgirl420

[COLOR="Magenta"]And socialism doesn't work. COLOR]

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As opposed to Capitalism, which obviosly works perfectly. :wtf:

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Originally Posted by rebgirl420

Actually I believe that welfare should be eliminated

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Ah yes, let the destitute adopot a life of total poverty and desperation so they can turn to crime and have even more problems for the judicial system and middle-class to deal with.

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and the education system is completely screwed up.

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Can't disagree with you there. I actually rather like going to a private christian school in grade 7 (albeit I was a closet agnostic), but you have to have some national standards too. I can't say I've seen a reasonably good education system, private or social, that has impressed me.

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And socialism doesn't work. People begin to realize that they dont have to work to get the same damn thing that the working people do. Why work when you can get it for free? Not everyone has a good work ethic.

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See there you go again taking it to extremes. Nobody here is talking about extreme communist/stalinist socialism, I was talking about moderate socialism in the areas where it's needed. I don't know, have you been told since birth that all socialism means equality for all in every sense? The socialism here in Canada, and even that which exists in America, doesn't make everybody equal. Socialism is responsible for the welfare system, and yes people don't have to work on it, and they're also poor as hell. Nobody living off social supports is "getting the same damn thing" as you put it, that's just rediculous. It's a choice of barely getting by on subsidies, or making something of yourself and living it up in the middle-class life where you can have new cars, big-screen TV's, Ipods, and vacations to the Bahama's.

Honestly, it's no wonder Americans think socialism is such a dirty word, they all think it's COMMUNISM or nothing.

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Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity

since when have the rich ever funded any government give away in this country. once again the middle class will be hit with huge tax hikes to fund another mismanaged government program. the very people who will scrimp and save to be able to afford something better than the substandard government care that will be offered, will also be paying for the bureaucracy created to run a system doomed to failure.

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Why has it worked so well in europe, canada and 25+ other countries. The managerial cost of running the medicare program is 3%, while the managerial cost of running HMOs is 25-35%, Plus some asshole CEO gets millions to sit on his ass and cut care and increase co-pay. HMOs are the devils health care plan.

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Originally Posted by FakeBoobsRule

Who has seen this movie and how? Did you download it or have an promotional copy? One of my friends used to get movies before they were released, copies intended for media to pre screen and review and stuff but not in the last year or so.

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i got mine from Pirate Bay, go google it.

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Originally Posted by Sugarblaster

i got mine from Pirate Bay, go google it.

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I read a notification on Isohunt a few months back that PirateBay was raded by federal authorities. But then I never saw it disappear, so......:wtf:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey

I read a notification on Isohunt a few months back that PirateBay was raded by federal authorities. But then I never saw it disappear, so......:wtf:

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supposivly they were raided, but the people who have organized Pirate Bay keep back ups in different countries ;) it's fully operational and Switzerland actually has a political party called The Pirate Party to legalize pirating material and what not.

I am very anxious to see this movie. As a former employee of United HealthCare, I am well aware of how screwed the insurance industry is. We (as new employees) were told that doctors contracted with United HealthCare received "bonuses" for not sending patients for expensive tests, such as MRI's and CT scans. If you need one of these tests, your best bet is to go early in the year, so your doctor will still have an allowance of tests available and will not be jepordizing their bonus. Also, I could never understand how United HealthCare paid $3.25 for a strep throat culture, when an average person without any medical insurance will pay between $40-$80 for the exact same test. (at least around here, in NC) They call it contracted rates, and you can see these on your EOB's. They usually start with a billed amount, which is reduced to the contracted rate, which insured people pay a portion of. This applies for all procedures, so on a larger scale, an uninsured person may pay $1000-$1500 for a MRI, and insurance companies get off with paying a fraction of it. I think this practice should be illegal, and everyone should be billed the exact same rate, whether insured or not. Many like to refer to the US as "the best country in the world" but we have people in ER's being walked over and ignored to the point of death. (King Harbor Hospital, in LA) When my sister had meningitis, (also life threatening) she had to wait over 8 HOURS to be seen in a small town hospital. There could not have been so many emergencies to warrant such a long wait. A friend of mine's spouse, who is from Germany, recently flew there to have dental procedures done, as it cost him less for the procedure there, and his international plane ticket than it would have to have it done here. This is just past the point of ridiculous. If other countries can have universal healthcare, I just don't see how or why it can not be done here. I hear congress has a great health care plan--do I have to run for office to get some good coverage? This is why I support Barack Obama, as I think he has the best ideas about how to make sure everyone has medical coverage. The issue goes even deeper when you have people that actually do have a medical insurance plan, but the plan is very expensive, and they don't even have good coverage. It pained me to have to tell people that they could not have a life saving treatment because it was not covered in their plan, and their state did not legally mandate that it be covered. Ironically, Texas is the best state for medical coverage. United HealthCare was frequently annoyed by some new bill that passed there, which required them to pay for some treatment they did not want to. In my opinion, the whole medical industry is sick, and in need of more than antibiotics to cure it.

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Originally Posted by Sugarblaster

supposivly they were raided, but the people who have organized Pirate Bay keep back ups in different countries ;) it's fully operational and Switzerland actually has a political party called The Pirate Party to legalize pirating material and what not.

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LOL, that's awsome!:D Thankfully here in Canada though, while pirating is illegal, downloading pirated stuff is 100% legal.

ceecee79:"This is just past the point of ridiculous. If other countries can have universal healthcare, I just don't see how or why it can not be done here. I hear congress has a great health care plan--do I have to run for office to get some good coverage?"

it is, and moore's movie confronts America's fear for socialist ideas in the film (just as he did with that little diddy in Bowling), it was funny and also a point of the finger to the fear mongers. Damn cold war scared us away from socialist ideas, it has been the biggest weapon for the Far Right politicians, conservative talk shows, and conservative news shows (you know the one) to keep universal healthcare out of our minds and to get the insurance companies so much money.

the scene with Nixon talking to one of his advisors sickens me. Nixon was a crook since day 1.

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Originally Posted by Sugarblaster

Damn cold war scared us away from socialist ideas....

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no, what scares us away from socialist ideas is common sense.

time and again our government has proven itself to be totally unresponsive to the needs of the people. big business, special interest groups, international pressures and the constant quest for re-election all come before the welfare of the nation's citizens. our elected officials are forever embroiling us in international conflicts, entangling us in questionable foreign involvements and inflicting nonsensical regulations on us designed to curtail the freedoms of a supposedly free people. all without the slightest concern for the desires of those who elected them and these are the very thieves and swindlers that a socialist system would give even more power to.

unlike the utopian concepts of communism which give the power directly to the people, socialist ideology filters that power through the state and no government has ever willingly given up a single iota of its power. graft, corruption and waste come all too easily under a socialist system and we have enough of those already. next time you decide to preach the joys of socialism, ask yourself how much you can really trust those in power and then ask yourself how much more power you would be willing to hand over to such fools.

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Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity

no, what scares us away from socialist ideas is common sense.

time and again our government has proven itself to be totally unresponsive to the needs of the people. big business, special interest groups, international pressures and the constant quest for re-election all come before the welfare of the nation's citizens. our elected officials are forever embroiling us in international conflicts, entangling us in questionable foreign involvements and inflicting nonsensical regulations on us designed to curtail the freedoms of a supposedly free people. all without the slightest concern for the desires of those who elected them and these are the very thieves and swindlers that a socialist system would give even more power to.

unlike the utopian concepts of communism which give the power directly to the people, socialist ideology filters that power through the state and no government has ever willingly given up a single iota of its power. graft, corruption and waste come all too easily under a socialist system and we have enough of those already. next time you decide to preach the joys of socialism, ask yourself how much you can really trust those in power and then ask yourself how much more power you would be willing to hand over to such fools.

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i don't preach socialism as a whole, i've thought long and hard about what i want out of my government and i think it's something everyone should do before they gain their right to vote.

I want universal healthcare, a fair taxation system to fund that, and everything else is all in the constitution. And the constitution is anything but socialistic, so does that make me a Socialist? Am I full blown Socialism patriot? i think not.

How much power do American people have any way? It's all in the hands of corporations. And corporations are the hands to the puppets in Washington D.C.

Our government is anything but socialist yet they share power with the corporations and old rich away from the rest of us. So the side your defending isn't any better. Thats why there is moderation, take the best of both worlds, they can all coexist. Being ignorant and totally blowing things off won't get you anywhere, listen to both sides and take each part that can appeal to you and everyone else. Being one sided won't get anyone anywhere.

Our government is unresponsive because it's structured to be unresponsive to the people, especially with the people in there now. What about other countries? they seem very responsive to their people's needs. Moore brings this up, he criticizes Americans for being afraid of the government. It shouldn't be that way, the government should be afraid of us! Why are we letting the government control us when it's WRITTEN on our Constitution, our freaking BIRTH CERTIFICATE as a country that WE THE PEOPLE have given our guidelines to what our government is to provide us. The government today is way out of line. WHAT SAY YE TO THAT?

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Originally Posted by Sugarblaster

i don't preach socialism as a whole, i've thought long and hard about what i want out of my government and i think it's something everyone should do before they gain their right to vote.

I want universal healthcare, a fair taxation system to fund that, and everything else is all in the constitution. And the constitution is anything but socialistic, so does that make me a Socialist? Am I full blown Socialism patriot? i think not.

How much power do American people have any way? It's all in the hands of corporations. And corporations are the hands to the puppets in Washington D.C.

Our government is anything but socialist yet they share power with the corporations and old rich away from the rest of us. So the side your defending isn't any better. Thats why there is moderation, take the best of both worlds, they can all coexist. Being ignorant and totally blowing things off won't get you anywhere, listen to both sides and take each part that can appeal to you and everyone else. Being one sided won't get anyone anywhere.

Our government is unresponsive because it's structured to be unresponsive to the people, especially with the people in there now. What about other countries? they seem very responsive to their people's needs. Moore brings this up, he criticizes Americans for being afraid of the government. It shouldn't be that way, the government should be afraid of us! Why are we letting the government control us when it's WRITTEN on our Constitution, our freaking BIRTH CERTIFICATE as a country that WE THE PEOPLE have given our guidelines to what our government is to provide us. The government today is way out of line. WHAT SAY YE TO THAT?

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I pretty much agree with you, but the problem is: how to affect the needed changes. Greed is rampant, not only in the government, but also the private sector. To eliminate Greed, (I find myself aflicted with it, although to a lessor degree, as I won't do what it takes to get rich.) It would take the second coming, or divine intervention so to speak. The human animal, in general, is a selfish piece of crap that only exists to further it's own interest. There are a few notable exceptions, Jesus comes to mind, Gandi also, but in general, from the earliest days of childhood, well into old age, the selfish crap continues. Maybe in some Tribal cultures I've witnessed on TV there is less of this trait, but in "civilized" cultures it is rampant.

Sefless people extend beyound famous figures though medicinal, you just can't meet them all. My grandmother comes to mind, I've never seen somebody as selfless as her, it's amazing how well she does it really.

I don't want to have a king/queen/monarchy/dictator, but I still think universal healthcare is feasible here. We all know the government regulates many things that they really shouldn't (such as marijuana and internet poker, lol) so I really don't see the concern about having healthcare regulated, and prices fixed. The only people this would hurt are the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

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Originally Posted by ceecee79

I don't want to have a king/queen/monarchy/dictator, but I still think universal healthcare is feasible here. We all know the government regulates many things that they really shouldn't (such as marijuana and internet poker, lol) so I really don't see the concern about having healthcare regulated, and prices fixed. The only people this would hurt are the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

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universal healthcare would destroy insurance company selling. pharmaceutical companies could still operate, they just won't make as much money as before, they'll still get paid.

i was talking to a british immigrant who was in one of my classes at night school. i asked him about the health care system and everything, as i brought this movie up to the table over a meal and beer at applebee's :)

he said that a lot of rich people usually have private doctors, they don't have to use the government's health care if they don't want to... also that that doctors are not just commited to working for the big cheese and supporting universal healthcare.

that doesn't sound so SOCIALiST now does it? If a doctor wants to make more cash and use his pratice for private business he still can. Moore didn't shed light on this in the film, i can only ask why he didn't cause it kinda helps to fight for his point and waters down the governmental control over health care that people fear so much about.

You're quite right Sugarblasted, and France has a two-tier medical system as well. Moore showed some of the best nations for healthcare and made it look like they were 100% socialist, when in fact the worlds best healthcare systems use both government and private sectors. Honestly, everybody in Canada is so terrified of privitized medicine, everybody in America thinks socialized medicine is the work of Satan himself, and so few actually consider giving the people some options.

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Originally Posted by Sugarblaster

universal healthcare would destroy insurance company selling. pharmaceutical companies could still operate, they just won't make as much money as before, they'll still get paid.

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Right if you take out the middle man and the profit motive you could potentially have a much more efficient system. We pay so much more in administrative cost than those countries with government funded systems. Heck Medicare is socialized medical care and people are very happy with it and it has very low administrative costs. A combined system would force the private insurers and providers to compete with the government system and most likely lower their costs as well.

I just watched this movie and it wasnt funny at all.Why do the americans fear a NHS ?The lady whom need the inhalers was paying $120 and here in uk she would pay £6.50 .my god if you have no insurance you could die.That is not funny and these companies are refusing people medical help for profit.Icant understand why the american people would stand for that ,everyone rich or poor should have free acsess to medical help of thw highest standard.dave

Icant understand why the american people would stand for that ,everyone rich or poor should have free acsess to medical help of thw highest standard.dave
Me either Dave!

In ancient rome the fire dept. was a private company. If your house caught on fire they came out, but only actually put out the fire if you had enough money to pay them. Sounds crazy, huh? But that's how the US health care system works. Your house probably will never catch fire, but you are gonna get sick. In a couple thousand years people will look back and wonder why the richest, most powerful empire the world has ever seen tolerated such a situation.

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Originally Posted by andruejaysin

In ancient rome the fire dept. was a private company. If your house caught on fire they came out, but only actually put out the fire if you had enough money to pay them. Sounds crazy, huh? But that's how the US health care system works. Your house probably will never catch fire, but you are gonna get sick. In a couple thousand years people will look back and wonder why the richest, most powerful empire the world has ever seen tolerated such a situation.

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Can I get an Amen? Question: why are the republicans so afraid of NHC? Is it the fact that most of them are higher up the socioeconomic ladder and have better private health care? Or the fact that they just don't care about anyone but themselves, or both?