should XScotlandX go independant?

I thought it might be a good time to ask what people think of the possibilty of Scotland becoming an independant state from England, after 300 years of union. Here's a short badly constructed summary of my tuppence on the issue.

I wouldn't call myself a nationalist, I'm more of an anarchist. But I am a sensible anarchist, I beleive in leaders but only if they earn their authority, not through ballot boxes, but through action. I understand the neccessity for some centralised power base, for the purpose of defending ourselves in the world today. If only America would stop acting like a pariah state I might even support it's cause towards stopping terrorism.

I beleive in communities and democracy, but through decentralised government, to the point where individual towns and communities form their own rules together, not have them thrust upon them by some politically stagnate realpolitik.

I've always been more of an SSP supporter (Scottish Socialist Party), but they are as good as dead now. I'm more happy to see the SNP in power in Scotland though, than any of the others. And they have formed a coalition with the green party as well which will grant them more influence.

So far as the consquences of independence for scotland go, I just don't know. I suspect that the main counter argument that Scotland would suffer because it would lose tax subsidies might be flawed, coming as it is from the forked tongues that dictate to us how we live our lives from Whitehall.

Whatever happens, I hope the current Scottish Assembly is succesful in blocking any plans the MOD has to splash out more working class tax revenue on a new trident. I'm more concerned with home affairs, what destructuve technology we might be building, than what Iran might be building.

One thing is for sure, if we do end up with a referedum on Scottish independence, and Scotland became independent, I think there will be a greater chance of Scotland taking back it's sovereignty from from any foreign investors with ulterior motives, what with Westminster being out of the equation, and the Scottish assembly not being known for taking any shite from the Bank of America.

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Tolls abolished for Skye Bridge

How is their representation in the British government? Right now I'd almost compare this to lets say Texas breaking away.....

By the way....keep these threads coming!!! Great reading!:thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

well it depends... how stable would Scotlands economy be without England?

But I'm all for independance :thumbsup:

When Tony Blair came to power in 1997 he immediately set about having a referendum in Wales and Scotland for devolution, both countries voted in favour of it. The first First Minister of scotland was called Donald Dewar, but he died suddenly of a heart attack not long after winning the first election, and was replaced internally shortly thereafter by Jack McConnell, who remained First Minister until last month when the leader of the SNP, Alex Salmond, won an assembly election for the position, following his parties narrow and last minute victory in the scottish elections. The SNP won by a majority of only 1 seat, I think, and since this wasn't enough to secure Salmond the chair by default, they had to form a minority coalition government with a further 2 Green party MSP's, who reached a compromise between their two manifestos. The other two parties, the lib dems and the conservative's were obliged to honour the manifesto they were elected upon and were therefore unable to reach a mutually agreeable compromise with them. As it stands the SNP, therefore, have limited powers to have their motions passed through the scottish parliament. The SNP's main agenda is to form an independent state, separate from Westminster, and all of the other parties oppose this, so it will be difficult for them to pass a motion for having a referendum on independence. They are aiming to have a referendum in 2 or 3 years, probably after Gordon Brown has lost the next UK wide general election and the Conservatives get back in. They are even less popular in Scotland than the Labour party. At the moment, I don't know what limited powers the devolved scottish parliament has, I think it's probably a grey area on the whole, but as for the specific details laid out in paper I don't really know what they are good for. Not shy of attracting any controversy through the years, one thing they are good at is pishing our money away on badly designed parliament buildings. It seems as though our first two First Ministers acted with pretty much the same agenda as the British government, which isn't surprising since they bore the same political tripe. But now, the SNP are not popular with the Labour government so it'll be interesting to see what happens. Gordon Brown expressed his welcomings to Alex Salmond with the same level of disingenuity that Tony Blair would have unintentionally displayed.

I've always like the SSP. They have some support, but largely their vote is taken away by the more popular and long standing SNP. The SSP stand for the legalisation of all drugs, hence their limited political influence, and sadly this year they lost all of their seats in scotland. During the swearing in procedure at one of the elections, Colin Fox, their now leader, subverted the procedure by closing his eyes and singing a song by the Scottish bard Robert Burns, much to the chagrin of the speaker of the house. He expressed his regret after this, I don't know why. Nearly every time I attended a protest in edinburgh against the Iraq Invasion he was there on his soap box.

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Originally Posted by S.P.Q.R.

well it depends... how stable would Scotlands economy be without England?

But I'm all for independance :thumbsup:

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As an anarchist, I don't give a shit about the economy. It's freedom from totalitarian rule that I am after. A stable ecology is one free from abstract monetary association. The less it costs, the more it's worth.

I usually hear British politicians making the argument that Scotland's economy is too dependant on Britain. But really, should a nation and ancient society lose its independance because one of the world's most historically arrogant powers believes they much permanently suckle at their tit to survive? Scotland existed thousands of years without the brits, and I'm sure they could establish their own economy and international trade systems were they left to govern themselves. I just don't believe a nation has the right to conquere and control another because they'd bring a "civilized" way of life to them. How the people of an ancient society live is up to them, not up to western superpowers to dictate.

BTW I'm just curious, why the "X" placed around the word "Scotland"?

Sxottish flag Gandalf, not that I am a supporters of flags, as an anarchist, but it sort of tied in the topic and made the title look more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Staurm

Sxottish flag Gandalf, not that I am a supporters of flags, as an anarchist, but it sort of tied in the topic and made the title look more interesting.

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Ah I see, that's cool.

Have a good one.

As an english man i say yes scotland should be independant. I don't see why scots should have a say on english polocies where as english don't get a say on scottish ones. If the scots want independance as they all say they do then go independant it's no big deal to us english, mind you there are loads of "proud scots" plying their trade in england that you might want to call back home to help with the economy up there.

Laters.

What do you mean the english don't get a say on scottish policies. Scotland was used by Maggie Thatcher as a testing ground for the poll tax, we had no say in the matter, it was decided by and large by english politicians in Westminster. Scotland is currently also being used as a base for Trident, yet we don't want it here, and nor do we want to pay for it either.

listen mate scottish independance may be a big deal to the scots but the english really don't care (no offence). I'm fairly certain if the english were given a referendum on scottish independance we would vote in scotlands favor. I don't want to burst the bubble on the scotland vs england devide but it's just not a big deal to us anymore. If you ask the average scot what nation and people they hate the most i'm fairly certain the majority would say england and the english right?. If you ask the same question to the average englishman the would say the french. If you want independance all well and good just don't make such a big deal out of it like your getting one over on the average englishman cause the truth is we don't give a fiddlers.

Speaking for myself, I don't hate the english. I just hate wankers, and Scotland and England both have their fair share. English wankers who hate the scots, and scottish wankers who hate the english. THis is NOT a discussion on the merits of scotland vs. england, nor is the arguemnt I slightly lean towards for the independance of scotland to be seen as erecting a wall along the border. It is about Scotland having the right to run its own affairs, not to be used by the warmongers as a base for nuclear submarines, not to be dictated to from westminster. As far as I am concerned we are the same people, and I just like many scots don't like the bulllshit that gets handed down to us from westminster. In light of the shit we've had handed to us recently in the form of poll tax, council tax, trident, the war in iraq and the private finance initiative I think it is time for scotland to distance itself from the centralised bullshit that comes at us from global capialist empire that is London.

I need to have a say in this LOL NO WAY SHOULD SCOTLAND GO INDEPENDANT!
We are a union .We are Britain we faught together we died together,These arguements were put to bed centuries ago and we shouldnt be dragging them back up.Alex salmond of the SNP is a egotistical wanker(forgive the french)I grew up in Glasgow actualy i grew up very near tommy sheridan .I took part in the Poll Tax riots and have protested outside the holy loch with him as you know he was with the socialist pary before he got hounded by the tabiloids he has now broken away and started his own party.We are the united kingdom and we should stay that way it will only lead to disaster breaking away .Centuries ago there was no ties with england now these days we have a strong bond there is thousand. of scots whom live in england and have family in england vice versa and breaking up the uk will only serve as a wedge forming between us .We must stay together remember devide and conquor we should be as one.Alex Salmond running Scotland that is scary. Tony Blair is the the one thats to blame for this and Alex Salmond jumped on the band wagon , he shouldnt even have win the boats bringing the votes from the island got flooded so the votes were removed from the ballot boxes by the captian and thousands were damaged , he should never have win . This is just my opinion im a Scot through and through and would die for my Queen and contry and that is Britain .Dave the postman

The world is a union mate, but the border's are there, not on the borders, but in our minds. While they are there I think it is important that every people within those borders have the full say about how things are run where they live. This is not about scotlands ancient historical divide withe the english, it is about what has happened over the past 27 years. What is the point is having half a Scottish parliament? Leave England behind and go into Europe. Fuck Britain.

Alex Salmond , Nicola sturgeon come on for fuck sake you would put the running of the country in their hands we can sort it out without going independant.There is no way its going to happen anyhow its a pipe dream most scots wont have it its all propaganda And i dont think you would be saying fuck britain if you had to go to war, fuck britain thats a very bad attitude to have.dave

What the fuck has britain ever done to me apart from try its hardest to make me into a moron. Britain is at war with the middle east, I want no part of it. We can't sort it out, look at Gordon Brown, who elected that moron? Let Whitehall carry on with its empirical war without Scotland, show the world what a great nation they all think we are by distancing ourselves from them.

What part of scotland do you come from mate? I noticed you say what has britain ever done for you .If it wasnt for the british soldiers you would be speaking fuckin german.What age are you? What happens if scotland has some greif with another counry once its independant and it gets attacked do you think scotland could defend its self against a bigger natoin,On the ground with a axe and a machette no problem but a full scale invasoin we would be fucked the whole of britain is stronger together .Its not about what britain has and hasnt done for you its about the union we have bonded and have strong family ties with each other i certainly dont want to have to use a passport to get into england to visit freinds and family. Its just madness.

i hope nothing i have writen you take offensive because no offence is intended im from glesga and like tae debate.

I'd rather be speaking German than English, German people are fucking nice people. Or didn't you know that. Germany is a great country.

You never answered my questoins.I dont doubt germany is a nice country.But if Hitler has won the second world war then would it be that nice .Would you even be alive.You and your veiws are the minority in Scotland thank god.It aint going to happen.How would Scotland survive economicaly ,by the the oil wells in the north sea dont think so , not for long they peaked in 89 thats not going to last very long.Then all the english and foriegn countries take their bussiness to england . We would be fucked. Seems to me that people watch braveheart and then get carried away with independance didnt you know brave heart was bullshit too just like the SNP. We are British . God save the Queen dave

What's Scotland not got, that england does? Name one resource that comes from england, that scotland doesn't have.

I agree but to a very smaller scale we have it. all the biggest companies are English.We have all the resources the have but we coundnt substain them .Dont you think it is better that we are together. our youth in glasgow 60% of them are either junkies or alchoholics with lenthey previous conictions This has nothing to do with england interfeiring with glasgow this is the councilers who run glasgow whom are to blame and you think that they would be better left on their own with no sature from westminister god thats a scary thought. scotland has no Navy or army .or an air force Scotland doesnt have a queen like britain does the scottish royals would come out the wood work jakeys alckies druggies would all be claiming they were the rightfull heirs to the scottish throne this would cause anomosity between the clans whom are still active today then everything in scotland would break down we dont have royal blood in scotland thats just myth.people just dont think about the full implacatoins of independence. satay united and strong yes have our own goverment but we still must all including wales and ireland all stick together as britain.Im from Glasgow im scottish through and through but if it came down to it i would defend the whole of the united kingdom as we are all one.dave the postman

60%, is it really that much? I thought where I come from in the south west had the biggest drug and alcohol problem in the country, with apparently 7% of 17-25 year olds having an acute dependance on heroin. Don't quote me on that, however judging by the number o walking corpes you see around town it could be a lot higher than that.

What do you mean we don't have an army? Of course we have an army! Where do you think Tony Blair gets all his economic conscripts from?

And in any case, who'd want to invade scotland, everyone loves Scotland!

I'm sure if the British Isles were invaded again at some point though, Scotland and England would still stand together. It's the invasion of our collective forces in Iraq that we perhaps disagree slightly on.

The queen will still be the queen of Scotland if we go independent you know. And I am not anti royalist by any standards, but I am not a supporter of them either. I like Prince Charles though for his work in ecology and sustainability, and I concur with a lot of what he says in the media when he speaks out, I just wish he would raise his voice more often.

Ahhh, life in the british isles, sounds euphoric. BTW I'm scotch-Irish-english-and dutch, my ancestors weren't choosy, I guess they just went for the best looking lass, no matter her bloodline, because I'm such a handsome devil,~LOL~. Oh, I forgot the indian in the woodpile, 1/8 cherokee. I guess one of my great grandpas got horney out west.

As an English nationalist, i totally support it. The term British is just a political term in which i hate being called. English is my ethnicity and my true identity in which i am proud of it.:cool:

Hell yeah, a civil war in the uk would liven up this board.

Im Scottish and Proud of it .I just cant trust my country in the hands of Alex salmond and his potty mob.I beleave that if we (the scottish English Irish and Welsh) can stand together in the battelfeild and fight together for britain then we should not allow the union to be broken imo it will only lead to greif.We all have family who faught together for britain to be free, what was the point if we are just going to destroy the UK.It just doesnt make sense we are opening our doors to asylum seekers from around the world to allow the UK to become a multi cultural society then our politicians try split it up , it just doesnt sit right with me (sorry).Alex Salmond look at his eyes hes a fu&*^$g weasel he is still in shock after winning he hasnt thought this through he cant get the figures right.Divide and conquer just keeps coming to mind.I fly the union jack with pride from the window of my house and thats right in central scotland and no one in my area wants to break the union.dave the postman.

Stop viewing it as splitting the nation up, it's about bringing what say we have in our personal affairs in a bit closer to home where it should be.

As a Scottish American i say kick England to the curb and get your own royal family.

We will have to agree to disagree on this subject staurm lol and hope it never becomes reality:jointsmile:
All i can say is that the british empire has diminished dramaticaly and if it keeps going there will be nothing left. Scotland will then be in the hands of a retard goverment who's inteligence levels are well below what is required to run a country.Seriously read the shit that Salmond comes out with .It amazes me that people get caught up in his wacky world.dave

I'm not a Salmond supporter, I'm just weighing up the pro's and con's of independence.

There is defenetly pros and cons to be weighed up but lets at least search out honest people to deliver those pros and cons to the people then it could be at least properly debated but the Scottish people seem to be getting hoodwinked into following salmonds patriotic rants.He knows we are a passionate race and he is playing the passoin card at every oppertunity.
Politicians .Who in there right mind would want to be a politician.

To give real service you must add something which cannot be bought or measured with money, and that is sincerity and integrity." and salmond has none of those.
dave.
Actually the only politician i have came across lately who seems to have both these qualities is Ron Paul the american .I watched his debate with gulliani at new hampshire and he well impressed me. far and few they are though.dave

What your alternative, the unelected boy wonder Gordon Brown? At least Alex Salmond was elected. You can never trust the will of the electorate though, people are generally too stupid.

I put a sticky on this thread for ya.....sorry for the delay. Just so ya know, when a member puts up a poll in here I try to put up a sticky for them and when the time frame for the poll has run out or if the member feels that the thread has outlived its usefullness.....then I'll remove it. Just let me know when.......

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

Thanks. I haven't voted in the poll myself, I am undecided. Can you change your vote, say if you change your mind later on? I think it would be a good idea to have a running poll, but I'm pretty sure its not possible to do that. The main thing is the discussion anyway. :thumbs up:

Once ya vote your locked in.......

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

In the same way, if you vote for the wrong suit in a real election, your stuck with the joker for 4 years? :D

The fun begins,now we see what Salmond is made of

28 June 2007
NATS DERAILED
Salmond suffers first defeat over tram plans
By Magnus Gardham
[align=left]ALEX Salmond's government crashed to their first Holyrood defeat yesterday after MSPs voted to save two key transport projects.
The Executive were heavily outvoted on their pledge to scrap Edinburgh's planned tram network and airport rail link.
The defeat - by 81 to 47 - prompted a climbdown by finance secretary John Swinney.
He agreed to press ahead with the trams blueprint. He also said he would reconsider the rail link scheme, despite the fact that it was criticised by spending watchdogs.
Swinney will now try to iron out problems with the rail link before MSPs vote again in the autumn.
The SNP had campaigned against both schemes before May's Holyrood elections. And before yesterday's vote, transport minister Stewart Stevenson repeated his opposition.

But Labour, Lib Dem and Tory MSPs joined forces to defeat Salmond's minority government.

Labour MSP Des McNulty said: "It's a good day for democracy." The vote was not binding, but Swinney said he accepted the wishes of parliament.

Both projects will cost about £600million each. Swinney said he would honour the £490million already committed to the trams - but not a penny more.

That means only part of the project will go ahead unless cash can be found elsewhere.

Swinney said he would look again at the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link (EARL), but said it was unlikely to get the go ahead.

He said : "In my personal opinion, EARL is pretty dead. There are practical problems such as tunnelling under a live runway, getting the type of trains that do not exist yet to run on the system and problems with the project board."

Transport minister Stevenson backed a second Forth crossing, which will almost certainly be a bridge.

But there were problems with other transport schemes.

A planned Borders rail link is in doubt after the government refused to come up with extra cash.

The Glasgow Airport Rail Link will be delayed by a year, not opening until 2012.

The Aberdeen bypass will also be put back a year until the end of 2012.

And the M74 extension in Glasgow could face delays after Stevenson ordered a cost review.[/align]

How are the greens positioned on this, I'd imagine they are against as it is probably a complete waste of money. Does edinburgh need a tram link to the airport? Bus service seems to be efficient enough.

The bus service is more than sufficient. they just seem to want more money to play with.They have just finished the super train between glasgow and edinburgh it travels at 270 mph does the journey in 15 minutes . I went on it last week and its crazy there is a large speedometer in each carrige and watching that speed build up is kinda scary it pulls out glasgow central at 50mph and as it turn the first bend it hits 170mph and after the second bend you are pulled back on yer seat as it hits 270mph its very smooth almost like flying the train kinda hovers.Is that money well spent? dont think so all that cash to cut 25mins from the journey. the money could have been better spent helping scotlands homless and old folk.I predict all the other parties turning against Salmond and going for the throat.dave