Tom needs your help

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06-21-2007, 08:38 PM
TheGreenFog

Tom needs your help

I KNOW THIS IS LONG, BUT PLEASE READ IT AND POST YOUR OPINION. Thanks. :)

So, this friend of mine came to smoke with me and while we were talking, he expressed a dilemma he is having in his relationship. He asked me what I thought he should do, but I really don't know what to tell him, so I though I would be able to get a wide range of answers from here and go pawn them off as my own...lol j/k about that last part.

Anyway, so this friend of mine, we'll call him Tom. He has a child. He has been with his girlfriend (who has 2 kids) for 1.5 years. Tom's dilemma is this. He loves his girlfriend. They are totally compatible (i.e. same type of career, children, maturity and intelligence level, etc).

The thing is that back when Tom and his girlfriend had been dating about 7 months or so, she started talking about marriage. Now Tom had made it clear in the beginning of the relationship that he was not partial to being married again due to a sour first marriage and a lousy divorce. He told her that he was not ready yet and that he'd rather her just enjoy being a couple for a while instead of rushing ahead. She stayed with him.

Tom and his gf moved in together to an apartment, with their children and all...she was first against this because she thought that they should be married, yet because she loved him, she sacrificed this want and moved in anyway.

Every time she watched a movie with a couple or a family, she would be sad. Tom would of course want to know why she was sad, so she told him that she didn't know why they couldn't just be married, since they were living that way pretty much anyway. This happened often, so Tom felt she was always bringing up the marriage issue and he was not ready. This would cause them to argue frequently. She said that if she was married that she would not have anything else to argue about.

A month or two went by, and Tom wanted to buy a house. This brought up the marriage situation again and things again got sticky. She still wanted what she wanted and she was not ready to go into a house with someone she was not married to. Tom was not ready yet.

I would also like to add on a side note that Tom had hurt her on a couple occasions during their relationship by talking to other women. He never actually slept with anyone from what he told me, but since he hid it from her, he did enough to hurt her and to make her consider leaving him. She stayed anyway...but I think this might have contributed to any future mistrust. She thought that he would have to be more accountable for himself if they were married. She also wanted the respect of being a wife instead of a "girlfriend." She thinks that maybe he needs to spend some time being single and "sow his wild oats" to get any of that out of his system and then he might be ready for marriage.

SO, they have broken up...she moved out and he says he doesn't know what to do. He loves her and her kids, but he said that he felt pressured throughout most of the relationship, and that he never really got a chance to "feel" it. The only way for him to get her back is to ask her to marry him. What should he do? He's a good friend/father/person and I feel bad for him because he's usually a pretty happy guy but he's been sulking around lately, so I hope I can help him. Whew...that was a lot to type. He'll owe me one. :p

What should Tom do?

The Fog :rastasmoke:
06-21-2007, 08:45 PM
beachguy in thongs

Tom needs your help

If he wants to see her again, tell him to make an excuse up. Well, he does, so tell him to make an excuse up so she can see him, again.

Or, tell him to marry her, and, look after her kids as they were his own.
06-21-2007, 08:56 PM
Skink

Tom needs your help

Marry with a prenup... sounds like a gold digger to me...
06-21-2007, 09:01 PM
Weedhound

Tom needs your help

How old are these people?
06-21-2007, 09:08 PM
stinkyattic

Tom needs your help

Oh man f[r]oggy I feel for the dude. What a shitty situation.
HEre's what struck me out of your post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreenFog

Tom felt she was always bringing up the marriage issue ....This would cause them to argue frequently. She said that if she was married that she would not have anything else to argue about.

That's quite frankly BS because there are ALWAYS things to argue about in a relationship, if a part of a couple's poor communication is arguments.
That isn't going to change until the communication changes. Only the topic of the arguments will change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreenFog

A month or two went by, and Tom wanted to buy a house. .....she was not ready to go into a house with someone she was not married to. Tom was not ready yet.

The house thing- been there, and it pretty much put the nail in the coffin of THAT relationship! I want to be married for legal reasons when I buy a house with a partner- and I asked myself, am I ready to marry this guy? the answer was no... and then the question was, will I ever? Nope! End of story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreenFog

.... Tom had hurt her on a couple occasions during their relationship by talking to other women. .....he did enough to hurt her and to make her consider leaving him. She stayed anyway.......She also wanted the respect of being a wife instead of a "girlfriend."

Man I can see where she is coming from- I get that feeling too, that once you get to a certain age it seems silly talking about your boyfriend, lol! BUT an educated and logical woman should see that the RESPECT bit is kind of Victorian... we should be over that by now! And if the title means that much, you have to ask WHY? Labels can be used to compensate for insecurity... does she need to feel validated by the title of 'wife'?
Also 'talking to other women'... !!! f'real?
And the last bit of this... the combination of the insecurity and the need for a title... by labelling Tom as her husband, and putting that ring on his finger, I would HOPE she isn't trying to essentially piss on the fire hydrant and claim ownership of him in a visible way that would make him less able to talk with other women (although it's a known fact that married men get hit on just as much as, or more than, single dudes!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreenFog

but he said that he felt pressured throughout most of the relationship, and that he never really got a chance to "feel" it. The only way for him to get her back is to ask her to marry him.

And that's not a good reason to get married. Someone close to me went through that already. And is now divorced and it isn't a pretty scene.

The bottom line is that a proposal is not going to help. If she is as smart as she sounds to have a good career and all, she will on some level KNOW that she pressured 'Tom' into this decision and it's going to make her feel like shit, and question whether he really loves her, or if he married her out of a sense of obligation. The arguments are going to change to: "You don't really love me, you only married me for xxxxx reason!" (insert self-pity here)

It sounds like the relationship is already committed enough to justify a few trips to a marriage counselor.
06-21-2007, 09:16 PM
Weedhound

Tom needs your help

Well I have a feeling for her its less about title and more about her childrens' future......she's not just thinking for herself now. Fog described both sides very well.....although I would like to know the ages....that is easy to see both sides of the equation. I'm with Stinky (as usual :)) that counseling is the way to go if they want to work out the relationship and just off the top of my head I'd say it sounds like it would be worth the work for them and could turn out to be a good relationship in the end.
06-21-2007, 09:59 PM
TheGreenFog

Tom needs your help

Quote:

Originally Posted by beachguy in thongs

If he wants to see her again, tell him to make an excuse up. Well, he does, so tell him to make an excuse up so she can see him, again.

Or, tell him to marry her, and, look after her kids as they were his own.

Well, that would be only a temporary solution. I think he did that for a couple weeks, then she decided to move out and then she told him that if he loves her, he will give her her space and not call/email her for a while. He has respected that, but he thinks about her all the time and misses her. He knows that there is not much to say unless it's something big, so he's trying to figure it out before he does anything rash, I guess. Does that make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skink

Marry with a prenup... sounds like a gold digger to me...

Nah, man. I don't think that's it, Skink. Neither one of them has any real assets and I think they both make about the same income-wise.

Stinky...some real good points. I think you may be exactly right for some of them...maybe not all, but I'm not positive.

I think she is a bit old-fashioned and wants the husband/wife title...she also thinks it's silly to be talking about her "boyfriend" at that age (she's just over thirty). He's mid/late twenties.

Weedhound, I think a lot of it DOES have to do with her children. She wants to set a good example for them and she doesn't like the idea of living out of wedlock with another man, I guess.

The Fog :rastasmoke:
06-21-2007, 10:15 PM
birdgirl73

Tom needs your help

Tom needs to either make up his mind to commit to that woman. Or let her move on and find someone who will. I don't know why women who want to be married get themselves into situations where they live with guys who can't or won't commit, but it's an age-old story.

The bottom line really is about him. If he really loves her and wants her around permanently, then he ought to take the leap and commit. That's real hard for a lot of guys to do, especially if they've been through bad marriages previously. And the statistics definitely aren't optimistic. A second marriage has a higher chance of divorce than a first one, and when one or both partners has kids it's likely to fail even faster. If he doesn't want to marry her, he ought to stay single, let her have her freedom to move on, and go sew those wild oats and grow up.

I get the respect thing and think it's valid. There are plenty of guys who can't or won't make a relationship legitimate, and that does involve a lack of respect for the woman involved. But before that, it takes a lack of self-respect on her part to get involved in a hopeless situation like that. Just as there are guys who can't commit, there are also women who constantly connect themselves to guys who can't and then spend their lives being frustrated and angry that the guy can't commit. So it's a two-way street. On some unconscious level, she may well not want to be married, herself, or she wouldn't be choosing guys who don't think she's worthy of being married to. Considering that they come from common career and life circumstances, I don't buy that she's a gold-digger, but I'm sure she's eager to find a husband to help parent those kids. To really be successful in finding a husband and co-parent, she's got to break with tradition and find someone who wants to be in that situation.
06-21-2007, 10:29 PM
TheGreenFog

Tom needs your help

Well, birdgirl. I think you also have a point there. Maybe he's not ready to commit. I don't know if it's that he's necessarily a non-committing person, cause he was married before for like 4 years or something.

He told me that since he's met her, he has surprisingly gone from a position where he had sworn off marriage for the rest of his life, to a position where he thought it was really a possibl thing that would happen, but he was just not ready for it. IMO, I think that is a big step. For her to continue the relationship from the beginning when he told her that he would never get married was a risky decision, but he actually changed his mindset some, so there's something to be said for that.

BIRDGIRL, I think that one of the main things holding him back from marrying her is the fact that she was pressuring him throughout their whole relationship. He said that he asked her to just lay off of it for a few months or so, but that she would constantly be talking about it. He felt that she was not only pressuring her, but that she was not even giving him the ability to make his own decision. If he did take some time to do an introspective and decided that he wanted to propose, it would not be a surprise, nor would it be incredibly romantic because it would be the subject that they just talked (argued) about a few days prior.

It was like she was asking him to ask her to marry him. Is that not wierd?

I dunno, I guess I can see good points on both sides, but that's unfortunate, because it seems that they may be at an impasse. It's really too bad for the kids. :(

The Fog :rastasmoke:
06-21-2007, 10:57 PM
birdgirl73

Tom needs your help

I'm sure the pressure thing didn't help. She shouldn't have pressured him, but that's what ladies who get into that situation think will work. "Oh, OK, I'll move in with him and then I'm sure I can get him to marry me." (NOT.)

They key is to keep separate residences, make sure he knows you have other options, lay off with the pressure-cooker, and play it very cool and hard-to-get practically till you're walking back down the aisle from the altar after the ceremony is over.

A former four-year marriage isn't exactly a testimonial to a strong committment ability, by the way. If anything, it's the opposite. And that's fine. He ought to be commitment-shy if he already has one failed marriage behind him.
06-21-2007, 11:41 PM
CannabisHappiness

Tom needs your help

Personally, I don't really understand the whole marriage thing. I suppose I could understand the respect thing, however, really it just seems to be the 'ceremony' that seems to be important to somehow 'cement' the relationship. Sounds like maybe they're not communicating well enough. No real advice thou, cept to maybe see a therapist about the issue. Hope things work for the best whatever that may be. Peace.
06-22-2007, 02:17 AM
Weedhound

Tom needs your help

I honestly don't have trouble seeing or agreeing with either side except for one thing.....He's feeling that she's not listening to him (and she's not). That's what got his bells ringing in the first place.....probably had some good undertone from his last marraige (which BG points out was his choice as well) and BG also points out that she went into it with unrealisitic expectations as well. I really think this could be resolved if they tried some counseling....when both sides hear something from a third person it tends to be looked at differently which my main thing about counseling. Everyone is always so sure its the other person's fault and if ony so and so would do such and such I'd be happy. .....counseling helps everyone sort out their roles and responsibilities in a relationship. Believe me (also as BG said) it takes two to tango......always.
06-22-2007, 02:55 AM
slipknotpsycho

Tom needs your help

ok i read the first post, none of the others... i agree with the firszt part of one tho... how old ar ethey?

some could see it as a gold digger but i don't.

women want commitment... and it sounds like she wants a life with him, but she want's the title as well (normal circumstance if you ask me) she wants him to for once and all say she is his, and she wants the stability of marriage (when you'r edating there's always that very possible 'what if', with marriage that dies down alot... and i thin khtat's what she's looking for)

i don't beleive he should marry her unless he's sure of what he's doing.. marrying the wrong person, is just asking for trouble... but marrying the woman you love, is just asking fo ra secure normal life...

i got mine but not everyone gets theirs as young as i did.. and most have alot more to 'lose' by just picking, which is probably his dilema...

if he's not seeing other women or anything, that's probably alot of his problem... just wondering if it's the right person..

so ask him... do you love her, can yousee yourself holding her in a bed when you're both 70+, can you see being at all of your kids (since kids are involved) wedding, can you even see being a father to teh two who aren't actually 'yours'?

only he is able to make these decisions, but you can help him see the light to make the right decision... you just have to ask him the right questions...

and yes, she may get mad at a prenup, but if she truely loves him, and just wants to settle down, she should have no realy qualms over signing one... the only peopl that should have some major problem with it would be true gold diggers... (that's not to say she may not be offended that he doesn't trust her.. but we're talking about life here.. not just some sale of property or somthing... if she really does love him adn wants to be with him, she shouldn't turn down the idea)

again, the true answer is arleady in him, he just awaits teh right questions to show him the light... as a friend it's your job to ask those... and reassure him.
06-22-2007, 08:09 AM
khronik

Tom needs your help

I also think it'd be best for the guy to consider marriage, possibly with a prenuptial agreement. Most women DO put a lot of value on marriage, and just because his woman is a little insecure, it doesn't mean she'd be bad for him.

I guess the question he needs to answer honestly is why he doesn't want to get married again. What is he afraid of? Does he have a legitimate concern, or is he just being stubborn?
06-22-2007, 01:13 PM
stinkyattic

Tom needs your help

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdgirl73

There are plenty of guys who can't or won't make a relationship legitimate,..... it takes a lack of self-respect on her part to get involved in a hopeless situation like that. Just as there are guys who can't commit, there are also women who constantly connect themselves to guys who can't and then spend their lives being frustrated and angry that the guy can't commit. ....On some unconscious level, she may well not want to be married, herself, or she wouldn't be choosing guys who don't think she's worthy of being married to.

Birdgirl is a genius. This is SO true but I could not put it so eloquently!

The way I see it from personal experience, having done EXACTLY this for YEARS, there's something in her past that she hasn't dealt with enough to feel self-secure. A fear of abandonment, a poor relationship with her own father, parents getting divorced when she was young- any of these things could make a woman subconsciously set her self up to fail at relationships over and over.

It sounds like she could benefit from talking to a therapist on her own too, but of COURSE you can't really suggest that :D

Either way, I'll bet there is a pattern here, and that her past relationships also fit into it.

On the positive, this is an age where a lot of us start looking more honestly and with some detachment at our pasts and do a lot of growing. When you are secure in your career and start having adult friendships and a new relationship with your own parents, your attitude towards romantic relationships naturally is going to mature as well and you should have a lot easier time of it trying to communicate honestly.
06-22-2007, 02:04 PM
Skink

Tom needs your help

Some women will do just about anything for security,,,best is to forget the bitch...
06-22-2007, 02:14 PM
MagicalHerb

Tom needs your help

i hope i never have to deal with a girl like that. i dont have any meaningful advice, though. that fuckin blows.

this actually makes me kind of mad, because some people would rather have a relationship to be married instead of a relationship for themselves. i dont get the big deal about marriage. i dont even think its natural, and i dont need a church to tell me im meant to be together with someone. if marriage causes that much stress for people what the hell is the point, am i missing something?

actually, forget that girl. your friend should realise that she obviosuly doesnt care enough for him to take him for what he is. i could never be in a relationship like that! and if that isnt the best option, ask someone else, because i dont know crap about this.
06-22-2007, 02:28 PM
verdure

Tom needs your help

I see a big red flag that Tom has work left to do on himself. Maybe deep down he is still in love with his ex-wife, or at least has not forgiven himself for the mistakes he once made as a married man, or grieved his failed marriage properly. I donâ??t think enough people take the time and make the commitment to do all that, if any, intensive internal work after every relationship. Itâ??s really difficult to do, but if itâ??s not done then they bring old junk into a new relationship. Itâ??s especially not fair when the other person has gotten over their ex and does not punish their new partner for mistakes the old one made.

I hear Tom saying that itâ??s sad for the kids. God forbid a woman utter that she wants to be married to a man that she loves, as that is so Victorian for 2007, but talk about old-fashioned â?? staying together for kidsâ?? sakes! That is a horrible argument in Tomâ??s defense. Kids are one of the worst reasons ever for two people stay together, much less get married. Seems like she is a strong and independent enough to know this already. Perhaps she has a shitty family and is trying to build the life that she knows she and her kids deserve. I hope that she recognizes her patterns and is still working on herself too. If the woman had a good head on her shoulders, I bet she offered counseling already.

Surely she never said: donâ??t ever talk to another woman. We all know that is an unrealistic request. Exactly how inappropriately Mr. â??I did not have sexual relations with that womanâ? really was is likely another story. Shall we get into what is technically defined as sex and/or what officially constitutes an affair? When youâ??re in a monogamous relationship, I believe it encompasses more than just his dick in another womanâ??s pussy. They might have disagreed on that.

Surely they had their little quarrels, as every couple does, but if the knock down drag out fights were repeatedly on this issue of marriage, then I donâ??t guess communication was a problem. Both are probably being honest about what they want, unfortunately it is still two very different things. The two of them have very differing values on family and commitment and it seems too late for either to compromise now.

While Tom claims that they have much in common, oddly enough he doesnâ??t seem to be madly in love with her. Tom even said he is not ready to marry her anyway! Knowing this, she is supposed to just sit and wait for him to fall in love with her? No doubt Tom really loves them, but it sounds like he is just accustomed to her and her kids, which is not the same as knowing that you have found your soulmate. Will Tom be sad for some time while he re-adjusts to life without them? Iâ??m sure they all are sad. A year and a half is indeed a considerable amount of time, but some people may disagree.

Tom is probably just wrestling with himself because he knows that she was a great woman who was in love with him, and Tom is probably a really great guy too, but no matter how hard he tried, he just could not force himself to feel the same way about her. He shouldn't have to because true love doesn't work like that.
06-22-2007, 02:42 PM
cannabis campbell

Tom needs your help

Well im going to take a long shot here... this friend... tom, is it YOU?
06-22-2007, 03:25 PM
Skink

Tom needs your help

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannabis campbell

Well im going to take a long shot here... this friend... tom, is it YOU?

Shh,,,everybody was not saying that till U...
06-23-2007, 12:38 AM
mesoto

Tom needs your help

Tell Tom that true love is a gift often sought and rarely found. If he thinks his love might be misplaced, he has no business breaking a womans heart and his own by leading her on. Marriage is a big thing, yes, but you eventually have to commit or quit.
As for his woman, she was pushing the point too early. Getting a house is one thing, seven months dating is another. They both have something to learn from this.
06-23-2007, 02:59 AM
clever421

Tom needs your help

marraige now a day is not as sacred as it used to be, it used to be that whoever you married you were stuck with them for the rest of your life now you can have divorse and get their stuff (if your a women) but usually the guy gets nothing he always gets screwed like my dad who would have raised em much better than my mom (and im not saying she did bad but my dad is just a better parent) i am not marrying unless i make sure i want to spend the rest of my life with her and if he feels that way then he should marry her sorry so long im high on cryp
06-23-2007, 10:23 PM
Bong ripper420

Tom needs your help

marriage is a big mistake,
you should see my parents been married for 20 years and counting argue so much argue every day
06-24-2007, 08:26 PM
TheGreenFog

Tom needs your help

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannabis campbell

Well im going to take a long shot here... this friend... tom, is it YOU?

Well, first of all, no it's not me. I just don't want to give away my friend's ID. Secondly, that is pretty immature of you, CC. But, I guess we can expect that from you...I mean you are just a kid still. Whatever. Nice addition to the thread, dude... :wtf:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mesoto

Tell Tom that true love is a gift often sought and rarely found. If he thinks his love might be misplaced, he has no business breaking a womans heart and his own by leading her on. Marriage is a big thing, yes, but you eventually have to commit or quit.
As for his woman, she was pushing the point too early. Getting a house is one thing, seven months dating is another. They both have something to learn from this.

True, true. It's a shitteh situation.

He's doing alright, though. He's still sad...but he's living his life. He really has no other option, right. Life goes on, I guess. He did mention somehtin gabout the herb making him feel more depressed. I guess it could happen, since it makes you all calm and makes you think about stuff...

Quote:

Originally Posted by clever421

marraige now a day is not as sacred as it used to be, it used to be that whoever you married you were stuck with them for the rest of your life now you can have divorse and get their stuff (if your a women) but usually the guy gets nothing he always gets screwed like my dad who would have raised em much better than my mom (and im not saying she did bad but my dad is just a better parent) i am not marrying unless i make sure i want to spend the rest of my life with her and if he feels that way then he should marry her sorry so long im high on cryp

Yea, well, I'd like to think that not all women out there are gold-diggers. Some of them take pride in the fact that they can support themselves and are not ever stuck in a situation because they have to rely on the man to provide. He's a better parent than his ex, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bong ripper420

marriage is a big mistake,
you should see my parents been married for 20 years and counting argue so much argue every day

Well, at least they're still married. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's a big mistake...but it is definitely a big endeavor...especially when kids are involved.

OH well, I didn't really know what to tell him either. I mean, she already moved out and he really has no options other than to ask her to marry him...and even that seems more ridiculous now that they are apart. It's a rough situation. All I can do for the guy is blaze him up on a regular. :smokin:

Thanks for the comments, though, peeps. Any more are welcome. I'm still trying to figure out this whole relationship thing myself, too. They're tough.

Be cool.

The Fog :rastasmoke:
06-24-2007, 08:30 PM
TheGreenFog

Tom needs your help

double post...errrr
06-24-2007, 08:58 PM
FakeBoobsRule

Tom needs your help

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreenFog

Well, first of all, no it's not me. I just don't want to give away my friend's ID. Secondly, that is pretty immature of you, CC.

Maybe CC should have asked instead of assuming but I can see why he would say it.

It sounds like there are so many issues that need to be dealt with before taking vows. Have these two people gone to counseling? There also seems to be some non relationship issues like is Tom depressed and if so does he need to be treated?
06-24-2007, 09:00 PM
Weedhound

Tom needs your help

Interestingly I've found that with good counseling good relationships are not tough.....and well worth the work of doing it.

tell your friend good luck.

Wh
06-24-2007, 10:13 PM
Skink

Tom needs your help

Leave it be for now,,,if it was meant to be they will find a way back home...