Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America

I just stumbled across this BBC documentary on Fred Phelps' congregation (the "God Hates Fags" people), and it is quite fascinating to watch these people. It's interesting how what they're doing makes perfect sense from their point of view of Biblical literalism and fundamentalist Christianity, but because they can't see through the bullshit they are rendered incapable of seeing how hateful and harmful their false ideology is. I mean, if you really honestly believe the Bible when it tells you that homosexuality is an abomination unto the Lord and that it is a sin worthy of eternal torture, it only makes sense to share God's prejudices, to hate whom he hates, and to celebrate when tragic deaths happen since it is all just part of God's ultimate righteous plan. I mean, if you honestly believe in Christianity, what sense does it make to mourn a tragedy? Isn't it all supposed to be for the ultimate good of God's perfect divine plan, so shouldn't you be celebrating instead like these folks when horrible tragedies happen? God must be letting these tragedies for some reason, and he must be justified in doing so. These people's way of trying to make sense of horrible tragedies like 9/11 and the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq, by blaming it on our acceptance of the "abomination" of homosexuality, makes a lot more sense, biblically speaking, than other explanations I've heard from Christians.

Louis Theroux: The Most Hated Family in America - Google Video

These people are nut jobs, there is a good video clip of a fow news reporter getting into it with one of a the leaders, the reporter gets called a slut, and then she calls the lady the devil, it's amazing, i'll post the link if i find it

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YouTube - someone @ fox news has a conscience

Before you go and say what crazy motherfuckers like the Westboro Baptist people do "makes sense from a Biblical perspective" how about you read the Bible yourself. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but have you ever read the entire New Testament of the Bible (that is the part Christians primarily follow)? Have you?

Because if not, I suggest you do before you go saying what makes sense "Biblically". Anyone can rip out of context one passage about what behavior may or may not be a sin and use it to justify yelling insults at people. But read the Bible as a whole before you say that is "biblical" behavior.

Most Christians in America hate the Westboro assholes. And most Christians don't hate homosexuals. Most Christians in America are not even fundamentalists. Its the idiots like Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson that give Christians a bad name. And to be quite honest (since I am a "fundamentalist Baptist"), most fundamentalists don't even like half of what Falwell or Robertson say!

Sure, God hates sin, and "fundies" like me see the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. But that doesn't mean God hates homosexuals any more then he hates a kid who tells a white lie. And that especially doesn't mean we're called, as Christians, to hate anyone.

While the Westboro crazies spout their bullshit, and Falwell spouts his anti-alcohol/anti-fun bullshit... we can read in the Bible that Christ made wine from water at parties and hung out with prostitutes, homosexuals, and other "sinners". Did he condone what they did as far as their sin (be it prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, whatever)? No. But he gently, through simply friendship and discussion, tried to point them in the right direction.

We can read for ourselves in the Bible how we're to go about witnessing about Christ (and hint, it isn't by banging doors down and yelling at and insulting people). The Bible says in 1 Peter chapter 3:15,16 "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."

There you have it... plain and simple. Respect others. Be gentle. Answer their questions when they ask them. There is no place for Christians to insult other people. Most Christians are like me. Its the crazy, loud, and insulting ones that everyone (including the media) notices though.

Perhaps he's refering to the fire and brimestone god of the Old Testament.

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Originally Posted by RamblerGambler

Perhaps he's refering to the fire and brimestone god of the Old Testament.

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If so, he should misrepresent Jews instead of Christians. Christians follow the New Testament, and interpret the Old Testament by the New Testament's standards.

I'm just saying, read the whole book before saying what is "biblical" and what isn't... especially when claiming crazy whack motherf*#kers are simply practicing "literal Biblical Christianity".

I have. I was forced to get a Catholic education.

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jsn9333: Christians follow the New Testament, and interpret the Old Testament by the New Testament's standards.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Christians accept the entire Bible. Where is there a seperation? In school they would put equal emphasis on both New and Old testament. That being said, it's the old testament that seems to provide the fodder for fundamental christians, and small wonder. If only it could be as you say, with Christians "interpreting" the Old Testament with a jaundiced eye. But I hear too much talk of the evils of Wigi boards and the influence of "evil forces" on our lives to believe there's a balanced understanding.

None the less, these wackjobs are nucking futs.

Christians believe in both the old and new testaments. They complete the word of God. They fit like a puzzle. The new testament is a fulfillement of the old. So it's not that we don't believe in the old testament, it's that we feel it doesn't apply to modern day. If you go by the old testament law, we would all be guilty of death. In the law it states that even if you keep the entire law and offend it in one point, you would be guilty of the whole law. One sin equals death. Even if you were a very holy person but had an evil thought, you're a gonner. The law convicted everyone of sin. We no longer live under this very strict law. Jesus nailed the law to the cross. We now live by Grace. The gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE.

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Before you go and say what crazy motherfuckers like the Westboro Baptist people do "makes sense from a Biblical perspective" how about you read the Bible yourself. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but have you ever read the entire New Testament of the Bible (that is the part Christians primarily follow)? Have you?

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not to try and 'ride his dick' here so to speak... yes he has infact... as any agnostic/atheist has, multiple times infact...

anyways i don't believe it was his intention to say they're right or anything of the sort... just making a point from an observation, and strangely enough, having read the damn thing quite a few times myself, i agree with him... they're translating it literally instead of metaphoricly which i think alot of the bible is meant to be (i don't believe if there is a god and/or jesus he expects you turn your cheek to be spat on, upon someone spitting on one side... nor do i think either feels "it is better to spill your seed in a whore (who're you're not married to btw) then to masturbate" i have 100's of other examples if you wish o.0)

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Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho

... yes he has infact... [read the bible]...

having read the damn thing quite a few times myself, i agree with him... they're translating it literally instead of metaphoricly which i think alot of the bible is meant to be (i don't believe if there is a god and/or jesus he expects you turn your cheek to be spat on, upon someone spitting on one side... nor do i think either feels "it is better to spill your seed in a whore (who're you're not married to btw) then to masturbate" i have 100's of other examples if you wish o.0)

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If you think the Westboro crazies are following the Christian Scriptures, please show me the verses. It should be easy since you're saying they are just following the Christian Scriptures "literally". Again, "Christian" by definition means follower of Christ. The Old Testament *alone* is not the Christian Scrptures. When taken alone the Old Testament is the Jewish Scriptures. So to be Christian, you've got to go by the New Testament also... since that is the record of Christ and his teachings. And if the Old and New seem to contradict, then the New takes precedence. That's the whole definition of "Christian"... following Christ, the latest prophet in Judaism if you will. Christians don't perform the sacrifices required by the Old Testament, etc. The New Testament says we don't have to... and the New Testament is the primary Scriptures for us now.

So... below I'll include two verses from the New Testament saying that we Christians are to be respectful, gentle, and kind towards non-Christians in particular even if they're rude and insulting to us, so they'll see the grace of Christ in us. Now feel free to show me a Christian verse that "if taken literally" (as you say) shows we're called to yell insults at non-Christians and mock their dead. While you're at it feel free to show me that verse that says we're supposed to ejaculate in a prostitute instead of masturbate. I don't know where you're getting this stuff, but it isn't in the Christian scriptures.

2 Tim. 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth...

2 Pter 3:15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

Before you go and say what crazy motherfuckers like the Westboro Baptist people do "makes sense from a Biblical perspective" how about you read the Bible yourself. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but have you ever read the entire New Testament of the Bible (that is the part Christians primarily follow)? Have you?

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Well, yes, as a matter of fact I have. It is from the New Testament that Christians get the idea of hell, this idea that sinners deserve to be tortured forever, which I think is a lot of the source of intolerance. Jews don't believe in hell, because they read only the Old Testament. Hell was a concept introduced by Jesus, and it is without a doubt the most baneful idea in the whole damn book. Nobody deserves eternal torture, because we are only capable of doing a finite amount of bad things in our finite lifetimes. Anybody who inflicts eternal torture on anyone is committing the most immoral act imaginable.

You mention that the New Testament is the part that Christians primarily follow, and I wholeheartedly agree (although people nowadays are willing to ignore those bits of the New Testament that promote things like slavery and women's subjugation). The reason Christians don't take the majority of their holy book seriously is because the Old Testament God is such a malevolent prick.

The Westboro Baptist Church is honest enough to say "Well, if we're publishing this book here and calling it sacred, we ought to take all of its contents seriously." Unlike the average Christian who only believes Biblical morality only insofar as it agrees with his already-formed pre-theistic morality, these people actually believe the Bible is more authoritative on morality than any of their preconceived notions of what is right or wrong. And that's the logical point of view to take, if you believe God is infinitely moral and if you believe the Bible is an accurate portrayal of that God's morality.

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Because if not, I suggest you do before you go saying what makes sense "Biblically". Anyone can rip out of context one passage about what behavior may or may not be a sin and use it to justify yelling insults at people. But read the Bible as a whole before you say that is "biblical" behavior.

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Well, there are some verses whose meaning cannot really be contested, if you take the verse seriously. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13) That can only mean that God considers gay male sex a crime worthy of death. What justification does a Christian really have to take God seriously in Exodus 20 (the Ten Commandments) but not Leviticus 20?

You can say that this is just the laws of an ancient barbaric tribe of nomads who lacked modern sophisticated moral philosophy, which they wrote into a holy book and falsely attributed to the mouth of the creator of the universe. I would agree with you, but I would go further and say that this is the origin of all Mosaic law, not just a few verses that don't mesh with our modern understanding of ethics.

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Most Christians in America hate the Westboro assholes. And most Christians don't hate homosexuals.

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Right, because they don't take the Bible nearly as seriously as they do.

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Most Christians in America are not even fundamentalists.

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Well, it may not be "most" but fundamentalist Christianity is no tiny fringe group. A surprising percentage of the American population believes in a literal six-day creation.
Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation

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Its the idiots like Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson that give Christians a bad name. And to be quite honest (since I am a "fundamentalist Baptist"), most fundamentalists don't even like half of what Falwell or Robertson say!

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Good.

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Sure, God hates sin, and "fundies" like me see the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. But that doesn't mean God hates homosexuals any more then he hates a kid who tells a white lie. And that especially doesn't mean we're called, as Christians, to hate anyone.

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No, sorry, you're wrong, and you need to re-read your Bible. God never calls for the execution of kids who tell white lies (although he does call for the execution of disobedient children in Deuteronomy 21). God does say that all gay men should be murdered, that their activity is a sin, and that sinners deserve everlasting punishment. If you honestly believe that my gay and lesbian friends deserve to be tortured for all eternity because of what they do in the bedroom, then you obviously hate my friends. That's like saying Jews deserve to be burned in gas chambers, but it's up to a higher power (like Hitler) to dish out the punishment, so it can't be said that you personally hate the Jews. Bullshit. If you think Jews deserve to be burned in gas chambers, you hate the Jews, and if you think gays and lesbians deserve to be burned in hell, you hate gays and lesbians.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

Sure, God hates sin, and "fundies" like me see the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. But that doesn't mean God hates homosexuals any more then he hates a kid who tells a white lie. And that especially doesn't mean we're called, as Christians, to hate anyone.

Did he condone what they did as far as their sin (be it prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, whatever)? No. But he gently, through simply friendship and discussion, tried to point them in the right direction.

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Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)





Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

If you think the Westboro crazies are following the Christian Scriptures, please show me the verses. It should be easy since you're saying they are just following the Christian Scriptures "literally".

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^^^Sadly I did just that :-(. I mean no disrespect just quoting the "word of god"

The "word of God" is by far the most controversial literature known to man. By the way, you pointed out old testament scriptures. The new testatment is a "new" message. It's about hope. Hope in the LORD. Jesus is our HOPE. His death and resurrection was witnessed by man. That's why this man still has followers until this day and will forever. So for those who look for historical proof, the proof is in the pudding. It's in just about every household. Where do you think these religious traditions come from? Are they not based on actual events in history?

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

So for those who look for historical proof, the proof is in the pudding. It's in just about every household. Where do you think these religious traditions come from? Are they not based on actual events in history?

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Proof of what? Appeal to common belief is a logical fallacy if thats what your trying to do. Only about 33% of the worlds population are classified as Christians anyway. I agree completely that religious traditions are BASED on some actual events in history and the resulting interpretation and embelishment of that history largely for political purposes.

You will need to do better than gives "HOPE" and appeal to common belief (more people disbelieve than believe anyway) to have a logical argument for the idea of a christian god (I assume this is what your attemting).

(awaits the use of pascals wager):D

I saw this a while ago on Break.com, those people are fuckin' assholes...

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Originally Posted by OniEhtRedrum781

I saw this a while ago on Break.com, those people are fuckin' assholes...

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I agree. Sick sick family. I feel sorry for the kids.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Well, yes, as a matter of fact I have... If you think Jews deserve to be burned in gas chambers, you hate the Jews, and if you think gays and lesbians deserve to be burned in hell, you hate gays and lesbians.

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The fact that the Christian Scriptures teach that sinners who haven't received Christ's forgiveness go to hell doesn't mean they also teach Christians should scream insults at them and mock their dead. Its that simple. In fact, in my post above I already showed two verses from the New Testament that teach just the opposite... that we are to be gentle, kind, loving, and respectful toward non-Christians. It is possible to believe someone is committing an action which may lead to severe punishment and still be gentle, kind, loving, and respectful toward them. And in fact, that is exactly what the Christian Scriptures call us to do. And you have yet to show otherwise. The entire point of Christianity is that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament. It is based on the teachings of Christ and his disciples (hence "Christ"-ianity) found in the New Testament. Christ changed things. We no longer follow the Old Testmant unless its commands are repeated in the New (as is the case with the 10 commandments you bring up).

The animal sacrifices are not repeated in the New Testament... hence no Christians practice that. Killing people for sexual sins is not repeated hence Christians don't practice that (and Christ even stopped people from stoning a woman for sexual immorality in the New Testament).

God teaches that those who rebel against Him and his morals go to hell. But He also teaches that Christians should be gentle, respectful, kind, and loving toward those who are rebelling... in order to hopefully persuade them that God has their best interest in mind and does not want them to go to hell. 1 Tim. 2:4 says God wants "all men to be saved," and the verses I cited above say we're to be kind and respectful to non-Christians to hopefully persuade them of the truth.

You can cite all the Old Testament verses you want to prove your ill-conceived misconceptions about Christianity... but again, the Old Testament isn't what Christianity is based on. And the Westboro Baptists are not what Christianity is based on. It is based on the New Testament. And you have not been able to answer my New Testament verses showing that love, gentleness, respect, and kindness are the ways Christians are called to treat non-Christians. You haven't even produced a single applicable verse.

I've got family members I love who are homosexuals. They know where I stand (only because they've asked). But they also aren't idiots. They know that it would be just as "intolerant" for me to misrepresent and/or disrespect them for their religious and sexual beliefs as it would be for them to disrespect me for mine. Arguing about whether or not the belief in eternal hell is a "moral belief" (and for that matter, whether or not beliefs in and of themselves can even be moral or immoral) is pointless... without an authoritative moral Being or Guide we both submit to, neither of us can be sure the other is right. All we can do is co-exist peacefully and respectfully.

Also, I didn't say God ordered the execution of kids who tell white lies. I said he doesn't hate homosexuals any more than he hates people who tell white lies. He hates sin, but loved the world so much he died for it. He wants those who are disobedient to turn from their sin and be forgiven. While you (along with the Westboro crazies) focus only on the "hate" of God, you ignore the ultimate act of love God committed on the cross... and in doing so you make yourself look as close-minded and blind to love as you try to make Christians out to be.

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Originally Posted by The Green Reaper

Kill Homosexuals
... Infidels and Gays Should Die... etc.

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See my post to Oneironaut literally right above this response of mine. He made a lot of the same points you made.

The only difference being that you at least cited a New Testament verse. But again, I've already given two verses showing Christians are called to be respectful, kind, loving, and gentle in their interactions with non-Christians. Sure, you've shown a verse in which God says homosexuality is a sin that he hates, and that it is evil in the same category as lying, murder, greed, etc... we all know the Bible teaches that it is a sin (in both the Old and the New Testaments).

But that doesn't negate the fact that the Christian Scriptures call Christians to treat homosexuals and any other non-Christian with respect, kindness, love, and gentleness when we interact with them. What we believe about the morality of their lifestyle and how we treat them personally are two different things.

I approached everything else in your post in the response to Oneironaut just above this one.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

But that doesn't negate the fact that the Christian Scriptures call Christians to treat homosexuals and any other non-Christian with respect, kindness, love, and gentleness when we interact with them. What we believe about the morality of their lifestyle and how we treat them personally are two different things.

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But did Jesus not say "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)?

When Jesus himself says that not one jot or one tittle of Mosaic law can be changed, what justification do Christians have for rejecting the Old Testament laws that say to perform ritual animal sacrifices, kill homosexual men, kill disobedient children, kill adulterers, and kill people who work on the Sabbath? How could God possibly change his mind on what we are supposed to do in these situations, if he is infinitely wise to begin with? If you believe the Old Testament (which includes the Ten Commandments alongside those other, more barbaric laws) to be the word of an omniscient God, then that word ought to be eternally true.

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." (Psalm 119:160)

I don't support the troops in iraq, but what those people are doing is disgraceful in the utmost sense of the word.

aahhhh I cant even stand to watch another video of those crazies

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

Also, I didn't say God ordered the execution of kids who tell white lies. I said he doesn't hate homosexuals any more than he hates people who tell white lies.

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That was my point, that God does hate homosexuals more than he hates people who tell white lies. He orders the execution of homosexuals, but he does not order the execution of people who tell white lies. If in God's eyes homosexuality is worthy of the death penalty but lying is not, then homosexuality must be a worse crime, right?

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He hates sin, but loved the world so much he died for it. He wants those who are disobedient to turn from their sin and be forgiven. While you (along with the Westboro crazies) focus only on the "hate" of God, you ignore the ultimate act of love God committed on the cross... and in doing so you make yourself look as close-minded and blind to love as you try to make Christians out to be.

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His ultimate act of love was to sacrifice himself to himself to change the rules that he himself put into place? I'm sorry, but the "logic" of the crucifixion makes no sense to me. What Jesus did was no sacrifice at all. He had to endure a few hours of suffering, then get resurrected, and spend the rest of eternity in bliss while billions of people worship him. I would kill to have an opportunity to do that! If I knew I could endure a few hours of suffering and then never have to suffer again in a perfect heavenly bliss, I would have to be crazy not to do that. It wouldn't be a "sacrifice".

If God wants to forgive us, can't he just forgive us? What's with the bloody spectacle of sacrificing himself in a human body? I just don't get it.

Also, I find it very sad that you think you love your gay family members, but also think they deserve to be eternally tortured. As an atheist, I can say that my love for my family and friends is free of such underpinnings of hatred. I truly love them, in the sense that I don't think they deserve to be the object of everlasting torment. As I said before, it doesn't matter whether or not you behave in a hateful way towards these people when you meet them; if you really truly think they deserve to be eternally tortured, in your heart you hate them. I can't think of a more obvious example of hatred than thinking somebody ought to be tortured forever. What could possibly be a more hateful opinion of someone?

I guess my previous example about Hitler and the Jews wasn't a good one, since you must also hate the Jews if you think you have to accept Jesus Christ to avoid everlasting torment.

^^either way he was going to be in eternal life. I am fairly sure in the bible it says at any time jesus could have called down (a thousand angels? correct me if i am wrong please) to help him. He went through the suffering so we humans wouldn't have to offer sacrifice. He made himself the lasting sacrifice so all we have to do is ask for forgiveness instead of burning animals and shit like that.


I think, like i said correct me if any part of this is wrong. I have read the bible in a while.

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Originally Posted by wayoftheleaf

^^either way he was going to be in eternal life. I am fairly sure in the bible it says at any time jesus could have called down (a thousand angels? correct me if i am wrong please) to help him. He went through the suffering so we humans wouldn't have to offer sacrifice. He made himself the lasting sacrifice so all we have to do is ask for forgiveness instead of burning animals and shit like that.


I think, like i said correct me if any part of this is wrong. I have read the bible in a while.

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But what was the point? Couldn't God have just said "Hey, you humans can ask for forgiveness now, and you don't have to burn any helpless animals anymore, okay? I changed the rules."

And is Jesus supposed to have a free will separate from God's? I thought he was God...in any case, if he's omniscient, he can't possibly change his mind about whether he wants to be sacrificed or not since he already knows what the big eternal divine plan is.

that's the problem i have with the bible.

omniscience. If god knew everything that was going to happen before he even created us, what the fuck was the point?

what the fuck was the point of us even being created? if he knew what we were going to do before we did it, it can be called free will what we are doing, but he already knows. why in the hell would he try to lead us all to the right path if he ALREADY fucking knows who will be going to heaven and who to hell

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Originally Posted by wayoftheleaf

that's the problem i have with the bible.

omniscience. If god knew everything that was going to happen before he even created us, what the fuck was the point?

what the fuck was the point of us even being created? if he knew what we were going to do before we did it, it can be called free will what we are doing, but he already knows. why in the hell would he try to lead us all to the right path if he ALREADY fucking knows who will be going to heaven and who to hell

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I know, eh? Why create a bunch of imperfect beings who are going to "sin?"

I just don't understand the concept of pleasure being a sin. I here encourage people to masturbate and have all the fun sex with whoever you want as long as no one's feelings get hurt.

Christianity is a dangerous, authoritative, medieval cult that should have been eliminated in the Age of Reason. In the Middle Ages it was used as a means of controlling people and getting their money, and keeping them in line by putting the fear of God into them. Bibles were also in Latin, and no one could read them other than the clergy, who no doubt revised the Bible over the years to suit their own personal, greedy interests and to further the hatred of non-believers which is what the Bible is all about.

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Originally Posted by cannabis=freedom

In the Middle Ages it was used as a means of controlling people and getting their money, and keeping them in line by putting the fear of God into them

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My friend, religion is still used for that in this day and age. Religion offers an afterlife, and as long as human beings fear death some will take that offer. However i think you have to make the distinction between religion and the church. The church uses religion to get away with wrongdoing, but that is a problem with the church, not religion itself.

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to further the hatred of non-believers which is what the Bible is all about

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Your entitled to your opinion, but i have to say i think you have a very misguided view of the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Also, I find it very sad that you think you love your gay family members, but also think they deserve to be eternally tortured.

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I don't believe that they deserve to be eternally tortured. Some Christians believe Hell will come to the end, and that those in it will cease to exist. I tend toward that belief. I believe God will punish them and, unless they have faith in Christ which leads them to follow His commandments, they will not have eternal life. They will suffer punishment in hell, and then cease to exist... what I refer to as eternal death. I can see why some people think hell will last for an eternity, but there are verses in which "forever" simply means for a lifetime. For instance, Duet. chapter 15 says, "He shall be your servant forever," of a servant who simply would serve you for the rest of his life. But if you want to argue whether or not hell is eternal or not, it would probably be best to start another thread.

So while you may not understand it, the fact is, love is my motivation. I love them very deeply, and want them to spend eternity with me. I also want them to have a deeply satisfying life here on earth. God's commands, while they may seem "overly restrictive" at first, always have our best interest in mind in the long run.

If someone refuses to love God and God's ways, then I think God is fair in punishing them and removing them from his presence. He created them after all! How could anyone say that is not fair? It would be ridiculous. And they wouldn't be happy with God anyway, since they hate His ways. So why should he make them suffer with Him and His ways?

Being a Christian does not require me to "hate" anyone. In fact, it has the opposite effect... I find myself thinking of ways to love others more and more. That is the example Christ set before me.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

But did Jesus not say "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)?

When Jesus himself says that not one jot or one tittle of Mosaic law can be changed, what justification do Christians have for rejecting the Old Testament laws... If you believe the Old Testament (which includes the Ten Commandments alongside those other, more barbaric laws) to be the word of an omniscient God, then that word ought to be eternally true....

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Christ did say all those things you quoted. And the Mosaic law hasn't changed. It is still there for us to study and learn from. But it is not "practiced" any longer. There is a difference.

The disciples did not practice it fully. Jesus himself did not practice it fully when he forgave the prostitute and stopped all the men from stoning her. The question isn't what justification do Christians have for not practicing the Old Testament... it is what justification did Christ and the Apostles have for not practicing the Old Testament.

The Christian Scriptures teach us that the Old Testament's purpose was to show how unable we are to keep God's laws and how serious the trouble is that we are in (even if we don't think it is serious or don't agree with it). And if I read it right, we (including me) are in some pretty deep shit... because I think half of the book is fucking nuts!

The New Testament's purpose is to display the grace and love of God. It has God sending His only Son, Christ, to take our punishment for us, and to teach us to treat each other with the same grace and love He has shown to us. Just like God provided a temporary sacrifice for Abraham in the Old Testament (in that case a lamb), He provided the permanent sacrifice for us in the New Testament (the Lamb of God, Jesus). That is what Christ means when he says He came to "fulfill" the Old Testament.

That doesn't mean all the morals of God are thrown out. There are plenty of morals repeated in the New Testament that we have to follow (including most if not all of the 10 commandments). But my point is that some of those New Testament morals (I've cited them earlier in the thread) directly teach us to *not* yell disrespectful, angry, unkind, rough, and painful words at anyone. To say Christianity lends support to what the Westboro nutjobs are doing is just not true. It just isn't. That might be true of Old Testament Judaism... but Christianity is not Judaism. That after all is why the Jews had Christ slaughtered.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

If God wants to forgive us, can't he just forgive us? What's with the bloody spectacle of sacrificing himself in a human body? I just don't get it.

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To be honest with you, I don't get it entirely either. After studying the Bible for years, I believe the terrible price he paid serves as an example to us as to how terrible sin is and how hard we should strive to avoid it. God's justice demands that sin be punished. Christ's taking our place for us shows the mercy of God and serves as an example of how we should then be willing to put other's needs above our own.

There will always be questions I have about why God does things this way or that way. I'm not God, so I just don't have all the answers. But He does. I know that sounds cheesy, but after years of trying to practice what Christianity teaches all I know is that I have seen God do amazing things in my life. I have learned to love people in ways I never knew I could. I have seen Him change me in ways I didn't think possible, even though He promised me He would. After I trusted Him, life has been so good that I've never looked back. Not even once.