The Bible contradicts itself too much

How can anyone, in this day and age, believe that the Bible is the Word of God or even the inspired Word of God when it clearly fails to live up to those expectations?

The God described in the Bible does not and can not exist.

The 3 important attributes of God (omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence) contradict each other.

Jesus claims, multiple times, that if you pray for something, and you truly believe, your prayer will be answered. In the history of recorded time, God has never healed an amputee. There must have been at least one single person in history who prayed for an amputee to be healed and truly believed in the Bible as the Word of God and in the teachings of Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and as the son of God and God Himself and the Holy Spirit.

Yet, nothing.

People claim the without the Bible we would have no basis for morality. The Bible promotes sexism, racism, and slavery explicitly throughout its pages. According to the Bible, if a man, upon marrying his wife, finds that she is not a virgin, the punishment is death by stoning. Likewise, if a child is to backtalk to his parents, the punishment is the same: a stoning to death.

You cannot pick and choose. You cannot leave out the bad things because they arenâ??t accepted in todayâ??s world. If you believe the Bible is truly the Word of God you must adhere to it fully, or you are disobeying God and will likely to be sent to that ridiculous Hell place.

Yahweh, the Christian God, is a fable. The unfortunate truth is that this imaginary being is controlling America right now. I won't get into further detail on this, because it pisses me off, but suffice to say that the fact that Christians rule this country is a very bad thing indeed.

Even at a catholic high school they reiterated that the bible is the work of man. It is not devine. But then again, the old nun who taught that used to ride a motorcycle back in the day...

What credence does it then have as just the work of man?

Saying that it is just the work of man lends itself to the idea that the book is simply fiction.

For starters, how can books written at least 30-50 years after Jesus' death accurately portray the man or his message. And was there not a vote on the divinity of jesus?

And why, if this is gods holy book, did any book rejected from the bible get put to the torch? Let's not forget the Dead Sea scrolls and the Gnostic gospals...

yeah dude im pretty much right on with all that, the whole thing is ridiculous i think jesus sucks.

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." :smokin:

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

"The words of couch-potato are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." :smokin:

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Fixed.

who really gives a shit? can we get over the bible already?

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." :smokin:

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oh...... that explains it.....:wtf:

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Originally Posted by A Scanner Darkly

Saying that it is just the work of man lends itself to the idea that the book is simply fiction.

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Because man is only capable of fiction?

I couldnt agree more with the original post.

To my mind the bible is the ultimate work of propaganda.

If you can convince someone of an afterlife and mould thier thoughts and actions to reflect thier view of it and how to reach it then you have them in the palm of your hand.

"Look at this book, it describes ultimate paradise and ultimate torture and pain forever. You can decide which one you have, all you have to do is exactly what I've written. You can't disprove it either way so you'd better adhere to it because this life is short and the afterlife is eternal."

Fuck..says the unsuspecting public. I'd better do what it says and whats more I'd better make sure my children do what it says before they have a chance to think for themselves.

"P.S. Don't forget the church needs a lot of money..for..err..god. Yeah that's it"

It's a prison for the mind, not only enslaving people but preventing them seeking the real answers and slowing down the evolution of humanity.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm against the religion and the evangelism not the people. Some of my best friends are christians but it truly does break my heart to see people so under the malevolent spell of organised religion.

I can of course only voice my opinion and not directly try to change anyones views as that would make me the biggest hypocrite around given my passionate hatred for evangelism.

So, yeah. Sorry for going off on one. Thats been coming for a while...odd place to voice it but there you go.

Oh yeah..lets not forget "God told me to invade Iraq"

I don't have time to argue the fine points of this, but let me say this...

If God truly existed to this day, do you think he would let the things that go on today happen? There's fucking genocide in Africa, where's God? WW2, 75 million die due to a prejudice man, where's God? I know people say it's all part of God's plan, but I can't believe that. If everything in Life is preplanned by God, then there is no freedom among men.

First of all, I actually agree that the fact that Christians "rule" this country is bad. For one, I believe separation of Church and Government is very important... because people should be free to live as they wish unless they're physically hurting someone else. If a Christian does hold political office, he shouldn't use it to enforce his religious beliefs. Many Christians in this country are ignorant or are hypocrites, and that compounds the problems caused when they try to legislate their own faith.

More importantly though, many people throughout the ages have claimed the Bible would soon be "out of date" and that soon "no one in their right mind" would believe in Christ and the God of the Bible. The Christian Scriptures have outlived all of them, and will outlive you. And for good reason; the truth found in their pages continue to change lives for the better, to give people boundless joy, peace and understanding. Sadly much of the Bible is mis-understood by people like yourself and even by many people in "the church" itself, which gives Christianity a bad name.

As far as the specific questions you bring up here, Jesus doesn't simply claim that you get whatever you ask for in prayer. That would make God your "whipping boy"... and that just isn't the case. If you'll read the passage(s) you're referring to you'll see He says to ask "in my Name" and at other times "in faith". That doesn't simply mean mention the name of Christ and you've got whatever your asking for. According to the Bible, God's "name" isn't simply the syllables that are uttered. It his is essence, his will, and his entire purpose. To ask in God's name is essentially to ask in His will. The practice of asking for things in prayer is a practice of growing closer and closer to God, learning to discover his will through prayer and reading the Bible, and then asking for things as He lays them on your heart. The purpose of prayer (or one of the purposes) is so that your faith will be strengthened as God reveals his will to you and begins answering prayers that you ask for *in His Name*. Like most in our culture, you seem to want immediate gratification and have your every desire served at your beckon call. That's not the way Christianity works. It is a process of growing closer and closer to God.

Anyone who simply reads the Scriptures looking for "contradictions" without actually putting serious time into studying what the passages actually mean will come away laughing at how stupid the Bible is. What they don't know is how stupid they make themselves look to people who know WTF they're talking about.

The "punishment by death" passages you bring up are twisted by you (either knowingly or ignorantly) in several ways. First of all, the woman is to be killed for lying about being a virgin and tricking a guy into marrying her based on that lie, not for simply "not being a virgin". Secondly, the child is to be killed not for "back-talking" but for cursing his parents and rebelling against all they stand for while still living in their house. Is that still harsh? Yes, extremely harsh!! Harsh enough to not follow the Bible? Sure. But that is the point of the Old Testament... to show that we all deserve very harsh punishment, even death, for our sins of lying, cheating, rebellion, murder, and hatred.

And what you fail to mention is that the in the New Testament of the Bible (Christianity) God and Christ teach that these "rules" are not to be followed any longer. That's a pretty big fucking thing to leave out when critiquing the Bible as a whole!

Old Testament rules, as crazy as they are, were put into place for a purpose: to show the extent of what we deserve when we curse, murder, lie to, steal from, and cheat our fellow man. And, according the the Bible (in passages you left out) those rules were specifically put into place at that time to later show the extent of God's grace and forgiveness when Christ took upon himself the punishment we all deserved at the crucifixion.

Also, your lumping together of all "Christians" in this country as bad is a big mistake. There are many "Christians" in this country that give Christ a bad name, I agree. But you're doing the same thing as people who want all potheads in jail simply because some idiots get high before committing crimes. There are a lot of hypocritical Christians... sure. But that doesn't mean all Christians are hypocritical.

Christ and God are not fables. Almost all historians today will say he was a historical figure. The apostles who followed him and were later killed for their faith were all definitely historical figures. The leaders of the Church who followed the apostles in the first, second, third, forth, etc. centuries and down to us through history were historical figures. You can go to the library and read historical accounts of these people. Other religious leaders have been historical figures as well, but what sets Christianity apart (to me) is that the first Christians all died for their faith without gaining anything wordly from their faith and death... that is what sets them apart to me. Muhammed (Islam) gained land by faith-based war and gained many wives. People like Joseph Smith (Morman) and other religious leaders who had "revelations" about God and may have died for their faith gained many wives and a lot of wealth also.

The first Chrisitans, historically, died without great wealth or heroms of any kind. If they were married it was to one woman. If they had wealth, it was given to the poor, to orphans, and to widows. These first Christians (the Apostles and the church fathers after them) historically died for their faith because witnessing Christ's teachings and his resurrection had had such an impact on them. They had no ulterior motives, historically speaking. That speaks volumes. No one dies for a lie, unless they are gaining something from it. And these men either lied when when claimed they saw Christ resurrect from the grave, or they actually witnessed the power of God. Its that simple.

And if one will come to the Scriptures and search for truth (instead of looking for ways to mock it) he or she will find the same truth that lead the first Christians to have such hope.

THERE IS NO GOD there is good and bad in eveyone and its up to you what to do,christinity is the biggest con ever,the truth known we are not even from this world man:thumbsup::thumbsup:

The fact that Jesus and his disciples existed is irrelevant. I am an athiest but I believe he existed and that he was a great leader. I also believe he did not claim to be the son of god but was deified at a later date by man when the bible was written so that the respect and admiration he commanded as a person and as a teacher could be exploited.

Of course the Bible at its core is about good morals and being a good person but it is twisted into a web of fairy tales and lies that people get hung up on.

Lets not forget the fact that it is just a book, written by human beings just like Alice in wonderland or Fantasic Mr Fox. These books too have morals but we do not live our life by them. We take the lessons they can teach and apply it to our own lives unintrusively.

The very idea that all people should live in the same way, by the exact same set of morals is, to my mind, offensive. I have a feeling Jesus, the man would be disgusted by the way his teachings have been capitalised.

You say the christian scriptures will outlive us all. As will corruption, greed, liars and murderers. Longevity is no basis for worth.

You mention is the last paragraph that the first christians historically died for thier faith. We're you there? Did they exist? Is it true because it is written down or told to you?


If I come across as aggressive through any of this I assure you it's not my intention. It's an issue I feel very strongly about and I'm always willing to be proved wrong and to learn.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

First of all, I actually agree that the fact that Christians "rule" this country is bad. For one, I believe separation of Church and Government is very important... because people should be free to live as they wish unless they're physically hurting someone else. If a Christian does hold political office, he shouldn't use it to enforce his religious beliefs. Many Christians in this country are ignorant or are hypocrites, and that compounds the problems caused when they try to legislate their own faith.

More importantly though, many people throughout the ages have claimed the Bible would soon be "out of date" and that soon "no one in their right mind" would believe in Christ and the God of the Bible. The Christian Scriptures have outlived all of them, and will outlive you. And for good reason; the truth found in their pages continue to change lives for the better, to give people boundless joy, peace and understanding. Sadly much of the Bible is mis-understood by people like yourself and even by many people in "the church" itself, which gives Christianity a bad name.

As far as the specific questions you bring up here, Jesus doesn't simply claim that you get whatever you ask for in prayer. That would make God your "whipping boy"... and that just isn't the case. If you'll read the passage(s) you're referring to you'll see He says to ask "in my Name" and at other times "in faith". That doesn't simply mean mention the name of Christ and you've got whatever your asking for. According to the Bible, God's "name" isn't simply the syllables that are uttered. It his is essence, his will, and his entire purpose. To ask in God's name is essentially to ask in His will. The practice of asking for things in prayer is a practice of growing closer and closer to God, learning to discover his will through prayer and reading the Bible, and then asking for things as He lays them on your heart. The purpose of prayer (or one of the purposes) is so that your faith will be strengthened as God reveals his will to you and begins answering prayers that you ask for *in His Name*. Like most in our culture, you seem to want immediate gratification and have your every desire served at your beckon call. That's not the way Christianity works. It is a process of growing closer and closer to God.

Anyone who simply reads the Scriptures looking for "contradictions" without actually putting serious time into studying what the passages actually mean will come away laughing at how stupid the Bible is. What they don't know is how stupid they make themselves look to people who know WTF they're talking about.

The "punishment by death" passages you bring up are twisted by you (either knowingly or ignorantly) in several ways. First of all, the woman is to be killed for lying about being a virgin and tricking a guy into marrying her based on that lie, not for simply "not being a virgin". Secondly, the child is to be killed not for "back-talking" but for cursing his parents and rebelling against all they stand for while still living in their house. Is that still harsh? Yes, extremely harsh!! Harsh enough to not follow the Bible? Sure. But that is the point of the Old Testament... to show that we all deserve very harsh punishment, even death, for our sins of lying, cheating, rebellion, murder, and hatred.

And what you fail to mention is that the in the New Testament of the Bible (Christianity) God and Christ teach that these "rules" are not to be followed any longer. That's a pretty big fucking thing to leave out when critiquing the Bible as a whole!

Old Testament rules, as crazy as they are, were put into place for a purpose: to show the extent of what we deserve when we curse, murder, lie to, steal from, and cheat our fellow man. And, according the the Bible (in passages you left out) those rules were specifically put into place at that time to later show the extent of God's grace and forgiveness when Christ took upon himself the punishment we all deserved at the crucifixion.

Also, your lumping together of all "Christians" in this country as bad is a big mistake. There are many "Christians" in this country that give Christ a bad name, I agree. But you're doing the same thing as people who want all potheads in jail simply because some idiots get high before committing crimes. There are a lot of hypocritical Christians... sure. But that doesn't mean all Christians are hypocritical.

Christ and God are not fables. Almost all historians today will say he was a historical figure. The apostles who followed him and were later killed for their faith were all definitely historical figures. The leaders of the Church who followed the apostles in the first, second, third, forth, etc. centuries and down to us through history were historical figures. You can go to the library and read historical accounts of these people. Other religious leaders have been historical figures as well, but what sets Christianity apart (to me) is that the first Christians all died for their faith without gaining anything wordly from their faith and death... that is what sets them apart to me. Muhammed (Islam) gained land by faith-based war and gained many wives. People like Joseph Smith (Morman) and other religious leaders who had "revelations" about God and may have died for their faith gained many wives and a lot of wealth also.

The first Chrisitans, historically, died without great wealth or heroms of any kind. If they were married it was to one woman. If they had wealth, it was given to the poor, to orphans, and to widows. These first Christians (the Apostles and the church fathers after them) historically died for their faith because witnessing Christ's teachings and his resurrection had had such an impact on them. They had no ulterior motives, historically speaking. That speaks volumes. No one dies for a lie, unless they are gaining something from it. And these men either lied when when claimed they saw Christ resurrect from the grave, or they actually witnessed the power of God. Its that simple.

And if one will come to the Scriptures and search for truth (instead of looking for ways to mock it) he or she will find the same truth that lead the first Christians to have such hope.

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word


context is essential; critics of the bible often get away with taking things out of context, and thus changing the meaning of a passage

I think too many people over-glorify the book for the wisdom that is in it, and as a result under-glorify the wisdom itself.

I pray for you all, if you only new what I know, and can see what I see.

Why is it that every time the bible's truthfullness is called into question, the rebuttals inevitably includes quotes from the offending document?

As to why god would allow suffering, well, that falls under the idea of free choice. This should fly with all of you "there is no spoon" people. If there is a predetermined fate, then there is no choice. If there is choice, there is suffering.

But my question to the practicing christians out there. If we're to take the books as THE WORD, would the other works not included count also? Other diciples wrote of jesus, would they're words be any less true?

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Originally Posted by pwnydanzasmokesdank

yeah dude im pretty much right on with all that, the whole thing is ridiculous i think jesus sucks.

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JESUS CAN'T SUCK IF HE ISN'T REAL!

That was for my Jews out there. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by mrdevious

oh...... that explains it.....:wtf:

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Actually, it does.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

I believe in him over you every day of the week and twice on church day. You have nothing on him. Peace

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Originally Posted by TheAtomicPunk

I don't have time to argue the fine points of this, but let me say this...

If God truly existed to this day, do you think he would let the things that go on today happen? There's fucking genocide in Africa, where's God? WW2, 75 million die due to a prejudice man, where's God? I know people say it's all part of God's plan, but I can't believe that. If everything in Life is preplanned by God, then there is no freedom among men.

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It's not that God preplanned your life, it's that he knows how it will play out. There's a difference. You have the right to choose, but he already knows what you're end decision is going to be. He's not the one causing the war right now, he's allowing it to happen. Is God telling BUSH to fight? I don't think so. Bush is doing it on his own. I don't think it's fair to blame God for the evil that men do. We should be thankful that he gave us the choice to be who we want to be. People do what they want to do. Be patient, cause correction is coming. Just because it's happening now, doesn't mean that it will always happen. So, in the overall picture, you shouldn't be blaming God while he's working on fixing the problem. After we get rid of all the criminals, Peace will reign on Earth.

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

Actually, it does.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

I believe in him over you every day of the week and twice on church day. You have nothing on him. Peace

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Dude, no offense but you're saying the word of god is infallable because the bible says the word of god is infallable. it's like saying "God exists. Now you ask, does god exist? Well yes, because I've already decided god exists". You're just using your conclusion as your premise, it's so circular I'm getting dizzy

I'm saying the word of god is infallable. Period.

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

I'm saying the word of god is infallable. Period.

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But that's the whole point of this thread, asking how it can be infallable if it contradicts itself?

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

It's not that God preplanned your life, it's that he knows how it will play out. There's a difference. You have the right to choose, but he already knows what you're end decision is going to be. He's not the one causing the war right now, he's allowing it to happen. Is God telling BUSH to fight? I don't think so. Bush is doing it on his own. I don't think it's fair to blame God for the evil that men do. We should be thankful that he gave us the choice to be who we want to be. People do what they want to do. Be patient, cause correction is coming. Just because it's happening now, doesn't mean that it will always happen. So, in the overall picture, you shouldn't be blaming God while he's working on fixing the problem. After we get rid of all the criminals, Peace will reign on Earth.

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If God allows us to choose our actions, then wouldn't that include being able to corrupt the bible for our own ends? So then how do we discern the word of God from the word of men who have twisted the bible for their own purposes?

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

Be patient, cause correction is coming. Just because it's happening now, doesn't mean that it will always happen. So, in the overall picture, you shouldn't be blaming God while he's working on fixing the problem. After we get rid of all the criminals, Peace will reign on Earth.

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Wait a second...isn't Armaggeddon suppossed to happen rather than peace on earth eventually? I thought it was prophesized in Revelations that the world will basically just get worse and worse and when God decides the time is right or that the whole world's gone to hell (no pun intended) he'll take all the Christians and leave the rest for the apocalypse?

Just what I THOUGHT, since I don't have a fucking bible in my hands to quote from, but that's what I learned being raised a Baptist. In a way I'm glad that I was, because it makes me question the existence of God less and realize how ridiculous all of what I learned is, for the most part.

I'm agnostic, so I don't have to debate for either side...HAH :hippy:

p.s.~ That whole "be patient, cause correction is coming" thing is a little cultish...might not want to say that if you're trying to convert anyone.

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Originally Posted by RamblerGambler

But my question to the practicing christians out there. If we're to take the books as THE WORD, would the other works not included count also? Other diciples wrote of jesus, would they're words be any less true?

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You have to understand how the Bible was put together. There never was a single document written to become the Bible, there were just a series of writings that were passed around from tribes and churches. Christians needed one single book because the religion would never succeed without it. Many of the writings were not considered true, thus they were not included into the Bible. Those that were considered true, are in the Bible as we read. I don't think destroying the other scrolls was anything crazy as some people would like to think, they didn't consider these scrolls true so why would they want them to continue circulating and spreading misinformation, and weakening the religion as a whole?

I think anybody that takes the Bible as the word of God is a complete fool because you don't have to read a lot to realize that there are some mistakes, and some parts just simply sound made up. Most of these stories were passed down for years and years through word of mouth, so just imagine taking the story your grandfather told you about your relatives and putting that into a book. Would you worship it as hard fact, or just respect it as a valuable historical family book, but obviously not perfect?

Christians today focus way too much on the Bible, I haven't read the whole thing but I've read enough to get what it is basically saying....just live a peaceful life and be nice to others and help out those that need help. That's all you need to be a Christian, you don't need to memorize some ancient book!

Personally, I think some other stuff in the Bible should have been left out with the other Gnostic Gospels, I mean come on, you know the guy that wrote Revelations had to have accidentally eaten some bad berries...talk about a trip! But they needed a chapter to make the book come to a close, so Revelations fit in because it told us about the end. Humans cannot accept infinite, we need closure, I believe that's why Revelations is in there, but if you read it you would have to admit it is completely different from any other chapter in the new testament.

But just because the Bible isn't perfect doesn't mean there's nothing to Christianity. That's like saying because a science book has a few misspellings the entire thing is crap. A lot of atheists seem to take great glee in pointing out the imperfections of some religions that attempt to explain the unexplained, meanwhile those same people can't even explain why they give a rats ass about a religion that worships a God they apparently don't believe in.

If you are asking because you are genuinly interested in the Christian religion, then just read through it as nothing more than a valuable source of information about early Christianity, much like a history book. It is not perfect, and it probably has been manipulated over time, but that doesn't mean it is worthless, but no it is not the word of God and anybody claiming it is doesn't know what they are talking about.

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Originally Posted by RamblerGambler

Why is it that every time the bible's truthfullness is called into question, the rebuttals inevitably includes quotes from the offending document?

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If the Bible as a whole is called into question as to its origin alone, then it doesn't make sense to quote the "offending document", you are correct. But if someone claims the Bible is contradicting itself, then the only way to show it isn't is to cite the context of the "offending document" as a whole so what seems to be the contradiction can be better understood.

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Originally Posted by RamblerGambler

But my question to the practicing christians out there. If we're to take the books as THE WORD, would the other works not included count also? Other diciples wrote of jesus, would they're words be any less true?

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There was a lot of persecution and killing of Christians and the disciples early on, after Christ. So they spread out and wrote letters to the churches and each other early on. These letters were considered Scripture from the very beginning, and were often copied and sent to other churches, etc but there was no single repository of all the Scriptures. After a few generations the church was enduring less and less persecution, so they decided to get representatives together from everywhere the disciples had been and make an official "repository" (the New Testament). It is very much the same way the Old Testament was put together by the leadership of the Jewish "Church" back in the day. There was a lot of discussion and collaboration.

There were a number of fake gospels that people wrote as Christianity grew in the first centuries, claiming to be one of the disciples, etc. The prosess of gathering representatives from all over the church helped weed these out. Although some people may have been conned by a fake, chances were someone else from the actual region where that disciple had ended up knew the true story. (You'll sometimes hear about "Gnostic" gospels and things like that... those were some of the fake ones, since the Gnostics were a group who, early on, tried to take over and change Christianity).

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

There were a number of fake gospels that people wrote as Christianity grew in the first centuries....

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....they did not agree with the agenda of those in power within the church. the politics behind the editing of the bible is old news. there was no bunch of enlightened individuals weeding through corrupt interpretations of god's word, these were men attempting to curry favor with their masters by deleting writings deemed unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Billy Preston

The fact that Jesus and his disciples existed is irrelevant. I am an athiest but I believe he existed and that he was a great leader. I also believe he did not claim to be the son of god but was deified at a later date by man when the bible was written so that the respect and admiration he commanded as a person and as a teacher could be exploited.

Of course the Bible at its core is about good morals and being a good person but it is twisted into a web of fairy tales and lies that people get hung up on.

Lets not forget the fact that it is just a book, written by human beings just like Alice in wonderland or Fantasic Mr Fox. These books too have morals but we do not live our life by them. We take the lessons they can teach and apply it to our own lives unintrusively.

The very idea that all people should live in the same way, by the exact same set of morals is, to my mind, offensive. I have a feeling Jesus, the man would be disgusted by the way his teachings have been capitalised.

You say the christian scriptures will outlive us all. As will corruption, greed, liars and murderers. Longevity is no basis for worth.

You mention is the last paragraph that the first christians historically died for thier faith. We're you there? Did they exist? Is it true because it is written down or told to you?


If I come across as aggressive through any of this I assure you it's not my intention. It's an issue I feel very strongly about and I'm always willing to be proved wrong and to learn.

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As to the Scriptures being changed after they were written, the evidence just doesn't support that conclusion. We have manuscripts (handwritten copies) dating back hundreds and over a thousand years, very close to when the originals were written. And these manuscripts are something like 99.5% accurate to eachother, with almost all of even thouse tiny amount of differences being copy errors with words like "a" and "the" and words that generally don't effect the meaning of particular passages.

Why does that matter? Well, it shows that the tradition of copying the Scriptures is one that involved *very much* attention to detail and to accurate copying. Historically speaking, we know that the Scriptures were extremely respected and revered by the church and those who dedicated their lives to Christ and to perserving the Scriptures. That is just a fact, my friend.

Now, you can say the manuscripts were changed and Christ was "deified" and all that in the first few hundred years (the time period from which we don't have any of the original manuscripts yet). However, again, from my perspective that makes no sense at all. The changes necessary to turn the Bible from the book it is (with all its claims of the diety of Christ, the importance of God and following him, etc.) into a book of general moral suggestions would be *massive*. It would take a serious fucking chop-job to change the Scriptures that much. And the fact is, in that time period you had Christians who were were so dedicated to the truth (including the disciples) that they were literally dying for what they had seen and beleived. Not only that, but (unlike other major religious leaders) they were not gaining many wives, large amounts of wealth, etc. Historically, the motives of these people was not to lie to and manipulate others for their own ends. These peoples lived and died to preserve the truth. That is just the historical record, period. It would take more faith for me to beleive what the "Scripture chop-job" sceptics say must have happened then for me to believe Christ is Lord.

The fact that Jesus and his disciples existed is not "irrelevant" as you say. In fact, it is central to the entire discussion of who he was. No, I wasn't there when he lived. But again, the history we have written down about people (be it George Washington, Napoleon, Augustine the church Father, or even the Apostles Peter and Paul) is not something we should just ignore just because were weren't there our selves. That would be foolish.

The Bible is an accurate representation of what Christ taught about himself, and what the Apostles who lived with him taught and wrote about him. Take it for what it is, believe it, or don't beleive it. But for God's sake don't try to water it down. In the book "Mere Christianity", Oxford Scholar and former atheist C.S. Lewis famously criticized the idea that Jesus was merely a human being, albeit a great moral teacher, writing:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: Iâ??m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I donâ??t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic â?? on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg â?? or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." (Lewis 1952, pp. 43)

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Originally Posted by TheAtomicPunk

I don't have time to argue the fine points of this, but let me say this...

If God truly existed to this day, do you think he would let the things that go on today happen? There's fucking genocide in Africa, where's God? WW2, 75 million die due to a prejudice man, where's God? I know people say it's all part of God's plan, but I can't believe that. If everything in Life is preplanned by God, then there is no freedom among men.

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You make a good point, but then again if god stopped all the evil in the world whenever it happened it would be defeating the purpose of Freedom in the first place. I dun like the whole religion thing... I mean if man as a species isn't able to go whatever way its chooses then how are we truly free?

There is one question you can ask that no theologian or anyone who supports the bible can answer to disprove or prove how inconsistant the bible is.

Is your God omnipotent, or is he the alpha and the omega,( that line is used quite often in the bible).

If your God is truely omnipotent do you posses free will?

Under chatholic religion (which i am) we are made to believe that our actions on earth will decided if we go to heaven or hell or wait in perigtory. The problem is if God is the alpha and the omega then he would allready know the out come of ever individual.

Since it is impossible for us to possess free will as well as having an omnipotent God. i choose to believe in our ability to pick what we please, not that this God is playing a dirty little trick on us.

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Originally Posted by 660

There is one question you can ask that no theologian or anyone who supports the bible can answer to disprove or prove how inconsistant the bible is.

Is your God omnipotent, or is he the alpha and the omega,( that line is used quite often in the bible). If your God is truely omnipotent do you posses free will? [...] The problem is if God is the alpha and the omega then he would allready know the out come of ever individual.

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God can know the outcome, but nonetheless could have a good reason to let us work through it and "figure it out" for ourselves... much like a teacher lets students work through a math problem (so they learn) instead of just telling them the answer. In fact, the Bible even says the reason God doesn't just come back now and judge everyone is so that more people, through the process of lifes joys, sorrows, etc. will come to know the forgiveness of Christ and Him as their Savior. The way I understand it is that God may know what choices we're going to make, but we still have to make those choices ourselves so that we will face just punishment or just reward for how we live and what we beleive.