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First God was in the sky. We explored the sky and learned what was really up there.
Then God was in space, beyond the sky. We explored space and learned what was really out there.
Now God is in another dimension? Come one. When we're able to explore other dimensions, where will your God run to hide from science?
In other news, here's a fun video: YouTube - Rational Response Squad takes on Christians on ABC
The sad truth is, if people want to find where god is they need to peer into the human mind...
Personally I'd rather find Waldo than god. Fucker has been missing for days now...
not that i believe in god...
but i think the general consensus for this is just that god is above you.... whether it be in the sky, or in space, beyond the sky.... OR in another dimension he's still figuratively 'above you' since he's out of reach....
again i don't believe in god... just trying ot analyze your point....
when you have a complex concept of god, a collective of all thoughts, ideas, and mindsets, abd you try to explain that to people 2000 years ago, of COURSE they are going to take it the wrong way.
it implies god is everywhere, everything, but they think god is a being, an individual, a PERSON, so they immediately say god lives where you cant see him.
first it was sky, then space, now another dimension when the truth is, god is nothing more than the collective thought of everything that exists.
until science can observe thought, idea, mind, and consciousness, science is never going to find god.
god is nothing more than the ability to think.
nothing that cannot think CAN exist.
the mindset of a human, is a human being. the mindset of a rock, is a rock.
the mindset of god is everything and nothing and all anything in between.
It's really funny all the excuses people come up with to still believe in God. Up until a couple centuries ago, this idea that he was a non-real being somehow not in our "plane of reality" was completely foreign. God was a literal man living above the firmament of the sky. If you went up there, you would find him. Of course, God is a fairy tale so we didn't find him we invented aviation and space travel (by means of science, which is infinitely more productive than religion), but the idea of God was still emotionally comforting to so many people that they transferred him into some invisible parallel dimension. Why is God hiding so intently from us if he loves us so much and wants us to believe in him? I can't think of a reason why he would be, and it's always fun to watch religionists squirm trying to explain it.
Sometimes people come up with absurd definitions like "God is love" or "God is consciousness". No, love is love and consciousness is consciousness. Love and consciousness did not create the universe. There is no sense praying to love or consciousness. There is nothing about love or consciousness which is supernatural. These things are not gods. They are emergent phenomena of complex nervous systems, and using the word "God" for them is just plain misleading.
My preception is that god is in a seprate Spritual demention. A demention that is here, but not seen to the human eye. I am starting to read the bible and when im done i am going to post my entire views on Christianty and the Bible. So this opponion might change.
Wow. there's an obviously false blanket statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Look, there probably are some people whose beliefs are just as literal as you always take them to be. And those people are obviously less developed in the use of human reason, though it does seem to make you feel like a big man when you point that out...
For the most part though, there seem to be vast numbers of believers who in recognizing that god is outside of human comprehension, actually end up believing some cool things and functioning amazingly well for society.
There will always be something we don't know, something more to learn. There will always be something happening outside of that narrow spectrum of existence that you recognise as reality.
dude, that sentence stumped both me and my wife (who both have a relatively good understading of english and being able to translate shit no one else coudl lol... )Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoner Shadow Wolf
read it a few times.. i have... you read it the first time, it puts one image in your head.. you read it a second, you start to see more 'flaws' (not nessicarly anything negatory, just things that don't add up) a third+ time, and the whole thing just kinda makes you think...Quote:
Originally Posted by Antihero867
i'm not telling you not to belive or something, but you definately can't make some summary just cuz you read it once.... just trust me.... it's almost like words jumped in there the repatitive times you read it, that weren't there the first... just take my word for it....
That rational squad thing is great, I have their logo all over my myspace hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by A Scanner Darkly
....always considered to exist just beyond what we can see.
some gods have lived on mountain tops or under the seas. some gods have been invisible and others have purposely hidden themselves from their followers, but all gods have always been just out of reach. a rational man might be forced to conclude that such unseen creatures do not exist. a logical mind might come to the conclusion that it is more likely that the god concept is a primitive response to our fear of the unknown.
:beatdeadhorse:
That's where it got after being confronted with the fact that there is no evidence to support god. Look at intelligent design for instance, it's the extreme case that shows how far religious people go to keep their fantasy real. For some people, the last barrier of defense is saying "it's outside our comprehension" (thus killing any chance of keeping a logical conversation up -- see Denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Completely agree. But, how does that support the god myth ? We didn't know why the sun rises just a few centuries ago. Does that mean there was a guy pulling it up and down until we found out why ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
I find it rather absurd that you limit your definition of god to the 'supernatural', then argue that God doesn't exist because your definition says he/she/it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
And anyway, even Jesus knew that god wasn't up in the sky somewhere:
"If those who lead you say, "Behold!..the kingdom of god is in the skies," then the birds will precede you. If they say that it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. Rather, it is within you, and it is outside you." (The Gospel of Thomas)
afghooey, now try to prove your point without refering back to the bible.
The big problem with doing that is that you're using a cyclical reference when you attempt to prove your point by quoting the bible.
You fail to realize that the bible contents holds no truth value to us.
As an example, imagine me saying Zeus is real and asking you how could you ever doubt it, and the single piece of evidence I'd give you to support my point of view is ancient greek mythology. You wouldn't be convinced, would you ? Yet, if I assumed the contents of their mythology to be true, then there would be no way you could possibly disprove me.
Nonbelievers do not need to prove anything, as there is not a single shred of evidence in support of the judeo-christian god (therefore, the "default" state is: there is no god). If you believe such an entity exists, then by all means prove it to us, without refering back to the bible and any of the literature there. And please don't try miracles.
The J man's influence on the world is undeniable, regardless of who his father was. He appears to have preached a message of tolerance that extends far beyond what we today know as offical church teaching. It's ashame the Catholic Church chose to limit the extent of his message, selecting the books they felt best illustrated their views and doing their best to destroy the rest.
Sometimes I wonder if Jesus would would view today's Bible in the same light as a Dan Brown novel, 5-10% truth and a LOT of filler. Needless to say, the "truth" would be his message of compasion.
I think you may have misinterpreted me here, I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by darth stoner
Firstly, I wasn't trying to 'prove my point' by quoting the bible, I was merely using it as an illustration to my point. Secondly, though yes I was trying to make a point, I'm not out to prove anything to you.
Thirdly, my entire point in the first place was that you can't rely on anyone's definition of God except your own. That includes mine (which doesn't happen to be that of the classic judeo-christian god anyway).
Okay, fine. Give me a definition of God that isn't supernatural, and prove it exists, and give me a good reason to call it "God".Quote:
Originally Posted by afghooey
The Jesus myth is loaded with allusions to the idea that God is "in the sky" somewhere. What the heck was that whole Ascension thing about then? Jesus taking a trip to the Moon to chill for 3 days?Quote:
And anyway, even Jesus knew that god wasn't up in the sky somewhere:
"If those who lead you say, "Behold!..the kingdom of god is in the skies," then the birds will precede you. If they say that it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. Rather, it is within you, and it is outside you." (The Gospel of Thomas)
I think Jesus means to say here that God's powers extend over everything, not just his heavenly realm.
why do people think that because u believe in god u dont believe in science.
and why do they think everyone that believes in god takes the bible literaly.
Atheist and non-believers are just as close minded as the person who thinks the bible are gods exact words
"There is nothing about love or consciousness which is supernatural"
actually consciousness is very super natural. tests have been done with random number generators(using 1's and 0's) and the results show that a conscious being can influence the ratio of 1's and 0's. other tests show that a conscious being can change the ph of pure water one whole unit. and by conscious beings i mean people who have achieved higher states of awareness. this is just a very small tip of the iceberg, i could sit here for months trying to explain it all.
if you want to find out more about this topic the movie and book "what the bleep do we know" is a very good start.
On one condtion. You have to give me a definition of beauty that isn't intangible, and then prove to me that something is beautiful using that definition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Can you prove to me that beauty even exists in this world?
Interpret it how you like, but I think that the whole 'ascension' thing was probably just a holdover from outdated old-testament beliefs, many of which Jesus was obviously opposed to and actually spoke out against. But that's my opinion. :stoned:Quote:
The Jesus myth is loaded with allusions to the idea that God is "in the sky" somewhere. What the heck was that whole Ascension thing about then? Jesus taking a trip to the Moon to chill for 3 days?
I think Jesus means to say here that God's powers extend over everything, not just his heavenly realm.
Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by blunt roller
Apply it to religion. Religion fails. Therefore, either you're delusional or you're in denial, or you don't believe in science. Don't do to science what you do with the bible (note: I'm using "you" generically", not "talking" or attacking you) -- cherrypick it to choose what you like and you don't like.
Beauty is a concept. Stop trying to play word games to justify your points, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by afghooey
Beauty isn't just a concept, it's also an experience.
Likewise, you can look at god as a concept, or as an experience. But I can only explain to you my concept of god. The experience is something that no one can give to you.
By all means, do explain. You mentioned you don't believe in the judeo-christian god but you also mentioned jesus, I must admit I am a bit confused.
I think I understand where you're going, and even if I believe there's no god, I wouldn't deny that god (the concept) makes some people's life meaningful and believing there is a god makes them feel good and full of energy. Is this what you're attempting to explain ?
That's not really what I meant, as that would imply that I'm saying that god's existence is limited only to a concept.
My point is that certain things (like beauty, as one of many examples) aren't tangible enough to where we can find an object and slap a label on it and say "There, that's beauty." Beauty isn't something a person discovers. One can see beauty in just about everything if one has the right mindset, because beauty is something that we create whenever we percieve something as beautiful. Just because we create beauty doesn't mean that it isn't real. Just because it's less tangible and can't be adapted to language doesn't mean that it's any less significant.
In the same way, when you experience divinity, it's not something that you can put down in words or explain to others, quite simply because it's something you have to participate in to understand. I could explain trying to ride a bicycle for hours, but you won't fully understand until you ride it yourself. Likewise, I could go on trying to explain God until I don't have a breath left in my body to do so, but until you experience divinity for yourself my words will be as empty to you as symbols with no meaning behind them.
Each and every one of us are our own god ,the sights , sounds , smells everything we perceive and experience through conciousness is done so at an individual level .We are all in charge of our own destinies , sure society shapes the decisions we make and the paths we take , but everything (and i mean everything ) we say and do, are thought and acted upon personally.Of course our actions and words have a direct bearing on everything and everyone around us to a greater or lesser extent and these actions and words can alter the parameters within which freedom of thought , speech and movement can operate mmm i am quite stoned at the moment and am starting to lose track ,but what i am trying to say is that YOU are god in your own world no one else, you have the final say on your own existence how much more god like can one be . One more point, which is one that as puzzled me since i was very young is this , with the existence ( for want of better words ) of so many different religions ( some pre-dating christianity ) and followers of each of these religions believing theirs to be the one true god,does this not by definition cast immense doubt over the authenticity of all religious movements ?.Anyway i'm well stoned now and can't be arsed to roll another so it's bedybybootime ,i'll probably look at this tomorrow and think wtf was i on aboutl but as well known Irish atheist comedian used to say goodnight and may your god go with you lol
I can see your point, but it's just like motivating yourself to do something.. it's what you think about it that matters, and if you deeply believe in something, then your mind will trick you into viewing that as real. If you don't believe or have confidence in what you're doing, then the simple fact that you thought about it will change the outcome. This is a documented thing, and it's in part self deception, true believer syndrome, and wishful thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by afghooey
That is why I don't deny that people can experience "divine" experiences, bursts of strength or motivation to do something after a prayer -- if you believe the outcome of a prayer to be positive, then it will very likely be (within the bounds of the reasonable, of course). For this very reason I don't deny that people can feel good about their religion, but if you think about it deeply, it's coming from your own mind.. and I know it might be hard to reach that deep, as for instance I couldn't see stuff that I can clearly see after I quit smoking (tobacco). I was in denial and throwing away things that I knew were relevant and labelling them irrelevant.
The thought process isn't perfect, and as you may know there are several known biases.. to get to the bottom of it you need to recognize our thinking isn't perfect and teach yourself to detect and correct your own thinking when you notice it happening.
If you clear your mind of all preconceptions you have of religion, and from a purely logical and reasonable point you think about the issue, you'll arrive at the only possible answer: god most likely doesn't exist (nobody can't say it doesn't exist for sure, purely for the same reason as we can't say the tooth fairy really doesn't exist, it's just highly unlikely she does..).
To what extend your mind will block out your thought process to prevent you from going into a fuse because of the radical change, I couldn't know. I have experienced it with cigarettes, but religion is something that is indocrinated in us from a very early age (I was religious until I was 12 or something, simply because my parents were catholics too and I didn't know any better), and it must be hard to shake off.
Actually, from a purely logical and reasonable point, I still see more evidence of god's existence than non-existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by darth stoner
The thing is, what you might define as evidence completely depends on your definition of god. If I was to set out on the daunting task of trying to prove the judeo-christian god of the old testament real, I would be hard pressed to find reasonable evidence of his existence beyond some millenia-old scriptures.
The biggest piece of evidence that I can think of in support of the existence of God (at least, as relating to my personal understanding of God) is intelligence. Here is one thing that I don't need to prove to anyone; intelligence exists, and we ourselves are living, breathing and thinking proof of it. All that's left to speculate is where the boundaries between 'intelligent' and 'non-intelligent' lie or whether boundaries even exist at all, which is quite debatable depending on your definition of intelligence.
That said, it seems incredibly illogical to me that we, as intelligent beings, are somehow an expression of an unintelligent universe. How exactly can something that is conscious and alive come to exist from something unconscious and inanimate? It just doesn't make a mote of sense to me.
Some people will attribute this to god; that is, to an external force that brought intelligence into existence among non-intelligence. Personally, I think it makes more sense that the boundaries between intelligence and non-intelligence are illusions that we have created, and that in truth the universe is a lot more intelligent than we give it credit for.
I would be inclined to think your definition of 'God' would match Einstein's God ("god" is the universe/nature itself and all the processes within, I agree with this definition altough I'd rather not call it "god"). If this is so, then I completely agree with you especially with your last paragraph, when you say the universe might be a lot more intelligent than what we think. Given that we are limited by our knowledge and locality (we only know a very tiny fraction of this universe - yet), what might look like chaotic and random events (galaxies merging, stars exploding etc) could be part of something bigger, something that we can't grasp because we only have a small set of the pieces in the big puzzle. That is a reasonable statement to make. Now, an uber-powerful creature who knows everything you think and will condemn you to eternal damnation if you don't believe in him, that is pure nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by afghooey
It is not God that is hiding from science, it is science that is hiding from God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho
if it has no mind, it has neither matter nor energy.
in other words, it cannot exist if it cannot think.
rocks would not exist if they had no thoughts.
the entire whole of everything that is included within the concept of infinity requires mind in order to exist.
to exist physically, it requires consciousness.
to exist mentally, we need only think about it.
the more a concept is thought about, the more energy is given to it, the sooner it will become a conscious concept, and able to manifest physically.
this is the way i see reality, is a singular, infinite mind.
everything that exists is thought.
first, it must be thought of, then it must be a conceived idea, a thought that has been worked on enough to give it form and concept.
then it must be given more thought in order for it to gain consciousness, where after it can become real.
physics are an elaborate organization of individual minds working together.
the mind of gravity, the mind of heat, the mind of light, the mind of magnetism.... many many minds working as one.
if it exists, it has mind. if it's physical, it has consciousness.
Personally I don't believe in God. But why hassle people who do. Everyone has different beliefs, and faith works for a lot of people. The only thing about religion that bothers me is when other people try to push their beliefs on me. So I don't push my beliefs on others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xTsUnAmI
i agree with that, why force people to think and believe like you do? that's asinine and contrary to most religious teachings!
Because believing in something because you were told to, without having evidence is bad. I hope you wouldn't jump off a cliff because I told you it isn't a cliff, for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by xTsUnAmI
Religion is dangerous people, and I think I don't need to mention any recent events, as everyone still remembers.
Now I know some of you will bring up the point that religious people help the poor and starving, help with charity and all that. These facts cannot be denied, of course. But if you think about it, you don't need to be religious to want to help other people..
Understandable, but if I was wrong on something and a friend of mine knew it, I would appreciate if he pointed it out to me. I believe it's a moral obligation we have to raise the consciousness of other human beings. If they don't want to be assisted that's fine, and of course, as you say, people are entitled to have their beliefs. But why believe without evidence ? I have a few religious friends and I can clearly see how believing impacts their life negatively. When you believe Jesus is about to come back and apocalypse is near, and that you'll be in heaven for eternity, you're bound to not care that much about this one life.. If instead you *know* this is your only shot, and that being alive is so improbable yet we're here to talk about it, once you think about that you'll start living life to it's fullest..Quote:
Originally Posted by xTsUnAmI
Now the following is a bit off topic, but it's an excellent read so I'll drop the link here:
RichardDawkins.net - The Official Richard Dawkins Website
Are we blind? Look around. What do wee see? Wisdom. From the clouds above, to the rain falling and watering the ground causing the seed to sprout and grow until harvest to feed man. Life reveals wisdom. How can one deny wisdom in the Earth? The harvest is coming.
Look around and learn. Everything comes from seed. Just as your weed plant comes from itself, so do we. What makes you think we evolved from something else? What did your weed plant evolve from? What did apes evolve from? Everything comes from seed. Did we collect bones of a half ape half man to prove mans' evolution? Or did we evolve from apes overnight? Do we have proof that weed evolved from something else? Evolution is a fairy tale. Change is not evolution. A man plants seed in woman and brings child. The child grows and matures. This is not evolution. This is wisdom. How does science prove evolution? I think science points out that things have changed but can't predict what and when evolution takes place.
What did the sun evolve from? And the Earth, how did it get into it's place? What does science tell us about this? Did the heavens evolve or were they always there? These Coors Lights are bringing out the questions in me. :stoned:
Pretty much, yes. I don't believe that we are islands of consciousness in an unconscious universe. All consciousness is, if you really think about it, is resonance. When we experience the 'outside' world, what we're really experiencing is the reflection of it in our minds. When we think about the world, we are reflecting on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by darth stoner
All energy reacts to other energy and resonates with information. Of course, the resonance of the human brain is much more complex than that of, say, a rock, because a brain has the power to retain information for longer periods of time, to draw out the resonations... not unlike how echoes are drawn out in music to make melodeous sounds.
One can say that the collective consciousness of the universe is god. It really is a matter of perspective. As Einstein himself said:
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
Evolution is about biological organisms, not planets and stars. There are various theories that attempt to explain the things you mention in your last paragraph, and even tho we still don't know some of then (and so many more), how does that even prooves that there is a god above it all ?
How does science proves evolution ?
Antibiotic resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
quote:
"Causes
Schematic representation of how antibiotic resistance evolves via natural selection. The top section represents a population of bacteria before exposure to an antibiotic. The middle section shows the population directly after exposure, the phase in which selection took place. The last section shows the distribution of resistance in a new generation of bacteria. The legend indicates the resistance levels of individuals.
Antibiotic resistance is a consequence of evolution via natural selection or programmed evolution. The antibiotic action is an environmental pressure; those bacteria which have a mutation allowing them to survive will live on to reproduce. They will then pass this trait to their offspring, which will be a fully resistant generation."
The way you talk about evolution only shows how badly informed you are about it. Will you also contest the above quote ? Because the same people that worked to figure that out also worked to give you vaccines, and they do work. So they must surely know something about the subject, or vaccines would be a fiasco.
quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
"The closest living relatives of Homo sapiens are the two species of chimpanzee: the Bonobo (Pan paniscus) and the Common Chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes). The two species are equally close (they share the same common ancestor), the main difference between them is the social organization: matriarchal for the Bonobo and patriarchal for the Common Chimpanzee.[6] Full genome sequencing resulted in the conclusion that "after 6.5 [million] years of separate evolution, the differences between bonobo/chimpanzee and human are just 10 times greater than those between two unrelated people and 10 times less than those between rats and mice". In fact, 98.4% of the DNA sequence is identical between the two Pan species and human.[6][7][8][9]"
This might be hard for you to believe, here's the full article:
Human - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Please, take the time to read it.
Origin of life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
Doesn't hold all the answers, but again, that doesn't mean there is a god to account for the bits we couldn't figure out yet. It only means our knowledge is partial, but by no means do we need a god to make sense of the available scientific data.
Some more (quite) interesting reads:
Timeline of evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ancestor's_Tale
History of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
And again, evolution by natural selection refers to biological organisms, not stars and planets.. there are other models available to explain the formation of these.
Just because science cannot explain some things, it doesn't mean there is a god. It only means we couldn't grasp that particular problem yet. We will someday. Perhaps we won't be able to solve some of them. But that only shows a limitation in our intellect, it doesn't mean there is a god.
I hope you can make sense of all the information provided, I know it's a lot of it especially if you didn't know we already knew these things.. it's not fiction or fairy tales, there is so many evidence available to support all the above that I would take forever to even attempt to organize it. Wikipedia is an excellent start to know more about this stuff, I also recommend the following sites to keep up to date:
Learn More at Space.com. From Satellites to Stars, NASA information, Astronomy, the Sun and the Planets, we have your information here.
LiveScience.com:
PhysOrg.com: latest science and technology news
RichardDawkins.net
We live in the 21st century, it's about time we embrace scientific knowledge and stop believing in myths that were created in the dawn of civilization. We simply know better today man. I hope to live to the day that we conquer space and cheat death itself. Only science will make that possible, not ancient myths.
little correction, I meant anti*biotics* and not *vaccines* on the above post. 6AM post :)
Prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by darth stoner
Take a loaded gun, unlock it, point it at your unshielded head and shoot. You can believe me, it won't kill you. Have faith in me.
If you believe this just because I told you, you're dead. (you had faith)
If you don't, you're alive. (you reasoned it wasn't such a good idea)
That's why.
Sorry, but cant resist. People who say they dont believe in God just appear as retarded cowering idiots..its like they use shitloads of energy trying to prove that it does'nt exist...why are you trying to prove somthing that you already believe to be false to other people? It is because somewhere deep under your desparate ego there is the part of you that is God and all you can do is run from it, build more barriers to give you a false sence of security, and you will do this for the rest of your life..it is sad. I know for a fact God is real, because God is everything God is every bird, every leaf, every bug, it is your spit, your tears, every single thing is God. Now ur going to question how I know... I have had divine experiences which I cannot explain, but it has givin me 100% factual evidence that God is real. Those that don't or cant believe in God are just pussys, they have a need to be right all the time..a need to explain everything, they fear stepping into the unknown. Sorry, but everything you know is wrong and you are just a waste of space until you step towards God.
You will be given the same tests over and over and over again in life until you change direction, if that day never comes..then sorry about the shitty life.
"Where there is no fear, there is faith" -Kiowa