..this is a bummer, except those who oppose abortion.
here you go
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..this is a bummer, except those who oppose abortion.
here you go
Gee, thanks Bush, I definitly trust a politician MUCH more then my doc.Quote:
This ruling tells women that politicians, not doctors, will make their health care decisions for them."
Sister had an abortion when she was 14 and now she cant have kids now and she is 32.
I dont know if that had anything to do with it, but before the proceedure the
equipment worked fine.
I wonder what life would be like if Mary would have aborted Jesus, or mohomad was aborted? Drastically differant i would think.
I am indifferant on the matter.
When abortion in the 2nd trimester is spoken about, I (maybe niavely) assume the women or the baby is in serious medical danger, that's why I'm so outraged. I cannot begin to imagine how a politian can determine whether or not a women can have control over her own fucking body especially for the wellbeing of herself and her child.
Some reasons for abortion, I do not agree with, but for the most part I believe there are too many valid reasons to keep it, then there are to get rid of it.
i actually believe that abortion is wrong. i believe that even if it's a few cells, whether you call it a "human being" or not, it still has the potential of being a human being. i don't think i would consider abortion if anything less that it was killing my wife, and then i really don't know.
now, i'm sure that the VAST majority of you disagree with me. however, i'll say something here i hope you'll like:
now i'm a Christian (that's not what you'll like ;) ), i believe the bible, i don't follow any sect or denomination, heck i haven't really been to church in years. BUT, i find it a terrible thing that chrisitans and the like think that the LEGISLATING of abortion is the most important issue in our country's politics. folks, we're at war, killing people, we're at odds with half the world, we're making new enemies on every front; our government has too much power and it is corrupt and it is delusional and our president is a hollow shell of idiocy being filled from behind.
i'm not a conservative :) i voted for kerry, and i'm very liberal politically. i'm not saying abortion should be legal. i do think it is wrong, i don't think it is the woman's body. however, the legislation of abortion is just about the last thing on my mind when i think about our country
folks, don't let the goddamn corrupt politicians snow you with one thing while they get away with murder behind your back. don't be taken in. stand up for what you believe and let's turn this country around. i don't know about you, but i don't think the world has to hate us, i think we can help, i think we can be a beacon for good and hope.
sry, got emotional, anyway, most of y'all (heck i wouldn't be suprised if 100% of you) disagree with me, maybe you think i'm evil for believing that abortion is wrong. i certainly don't think you're evil for thinking it is right. i certainly don't want to see young girls self-aborting because they have no hope. God above, i don't want that.
anyway, i'll stop preaching, but i wish you all well, and i hope that you'll consider what matters most when you think about who you want to rule us
so really, i have to ask myself, do i believe abortion should be illegal? well, perhaps, but honestly i really don't know. i believe completely that it is wrong, i DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD DICTATE RIGHT FROM WRONG IN EVERY SCENERIO.
for instance, i think using crack is pretty wrong; you fuck yourself up; but i don't know that the government should tell us what we do to our own bodies. i certainly believe cannabis should be legal
in this case however, i don't believe it's your body, but the beginning of a human being growing inside you, whether it has one cell or millions, it's going to be a person, not a squirrel ( i hope ) ;)
so yes, in the end i would say i think abortion should be illegal, but i'll tell you this, it's just about the last thing i consider when i vote, and until the democrats become pro-life i doubt i'll be helping the anti-aborition cause. first i'd rather stop destroying our national resources, and breeding terrorists and invading countries
peace and love
I'm not going to argue on the issue of whether or not abortion is wrong, just the text of this statement "potential of being a human being". I waste millions of opportunities for human life every day and flush them down the toilet.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbygreenbear
But yeah, it's certainly down the list of concern i think, when there are much more important issues at hand. And government should be about being the moral authority.
Im very pro choice myself. But thats just my 2 cents.
Not at all. Allow me to speak perhaps for a small section of "the opposition", such as it is...Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbygreenbear
We don't think you're evil for believing abortion is wrong. We don't really believe in evil in the traditional perspective anyway. But we feel perhaps that you're failing to be empathetic to people who are different than you. Which is understandable, but not particularly laudable.
As is, we find it remarkably refreshing that your apparently open to allowing people to choose their own lives. Nobody thinks that just because the Jewish segments of the population cover their heads, we all do. Similarly, just because Christians choose to practice their particular beliefs about sex and conception, doesn't mean we should all be held to the same standard by the legal system.
we do have vastly differing beliefs concerning the beginning of life, and the rights accorded to human potentiality.
Do you also oppose masturbation? And must all sex be for the purpose of procreation?
I am pro-abortion. End of story.
I'm pro-choice, too. But I confess that I do have problems with that form of late-term abortion. There's no reason it should be performed that late in the game, as awful and brutal as the technique is. Those pregnancies should be taken care of much earlier so that late-term procedure can be avoided.
I am troubled that the Supreme Court didn't see any reason to include language that made some rare exceptions when the mother's health and/or life depended on it. This opens the door to what we've all been dreading with this new court--even further restrictions on women's reproductive choices.
The article said that it would only be a crime if you were deemed healthy and it would be safe to have the child. I take that to mean that if there were a health risk to the mom it would be allowable. I see nothing wrong with this law if it is the case. I think that a trimester is plenty of time to decide even with the month of not knowing. Buy the second trimester you have a little human being in there, no longer an embryo. You should have a choice if you want to be a parent or not but you can abuse your window of oppertunity to decide at the expense of a now devolping person, that's wrong. Be responsible and take enough care of yourself and your body enough to know when an "oops" may have happened to make the responsible decision.
I forgot about that, Chrissy!
But an an embryo feel pain? When the doctor sticks that suction tube in you and the suction is so tremendious that it rips the embryo to shreds including tearing off the arms as well as decapitation.
But killing a child during labor is another by the doctor sticking a scalple into the back of the babies neck severing the brain stem or by snapping the babies neck, because its still not all the way out so its abortion and not murder.
Where is the line?
I say cum is cum and a fetilized egg is a human.
So does that alter your postion on the subject any differently now?Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyFacedAbortion
I'm a new mom any clearly remember the flutters in my belly as my daughter did summer saults inside me, I felt them early easily in the second trimester. Maybe I'm a little swayed by that fact, but I still respect responsible abortion when done promtly.
It does, dear. :)
Well that certainly feels nice and arbitrary...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777
Why don't we say that a human is a human, and a fertilized egg is... an egg?
A fertilized egg doesn't have autonomy, it doesn't even have a spinal cord. Meanwhile, we still test cosmetics on harmless little bunny rabbits, so why so worried about causing pain to embryos?
(and no, they can't feel it.)
A fertililized egg has bbnoth sets of chromisomes (SP).
therefore its a person.
I used to be against this form of abortion. Then I read something a mother wrote. She had invetro and really wanted a baby. During the second trimester they found out it had some really bad disease. I forget what it was but it was something that would have pretty much forced the child to have a very painful and short life. She chose abortion (this was before the law was passed). It really hurt her to make that decision, and it was sure as hell not an opps situation. And she didnt regret her choice later. That changed my mind by opening up my eyes to see past the term they use for second trimester abortions. I think it should be allowed in certain medical situations. I also think this law serves as a stepping stone to further chip away at our rights as women.
Does it pay taxes? Does it have to wait in line at the DMV? Does it need identification? Does it get angry? Fall in love? Does it laugh? Cry? Dream?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777
No. It's not a person.
LOL, Jordan fades back, shoots, and THAT'S THE GAME! :jointsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
In the second trimester the answer is yes to the actual human requirements. Those other poor excuses for a rebuttal are easily not some thing a child under the age of 5 needs, does it make pre-schooler any less human.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
napolitana869
I completely understand and support a decision like that and would do so myself. But that is still a medicle reason to have a abortion which the law allows.
roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
My grandmother never drove so so she never waited in line at the DMV!]
Most welfare recipiants dont pay taxes!
all illeagle aliens dont have ID.
And they are people.
as far as if it is sentiant...... I know PEOPLE who are 40 years old and I wonder if they are seniant.
But studies have been done. What would they have to dream about? The big one eyed spitting cobra?
You dont want kids keep it in your pants, or get protection, but if you do get one be responsible, there are thousands of childless couples LIKE MYSELF!
Who would love to adopt a baby,rather then kill it because its parents only wanted to get off.
But if you are going to kill them at least make use of their stem cells to help the poeple that are here now.
What a waste. kill the kid then toss away a possible cure for hundereds of ailments.
Would you be so much for abortion if you were still in the womb? Or were you born with a pro choice banner in hand? I would expect if you were born holding any sign it said" I dont pay taxes, i dont love anyone yet,i9 dont have no dreams yet....but i am human.
weather your 12 weeks old or 36 weeks old in the womb conception=kid!
I am pro choice- simply put, if you're a man, you should not be the one deciding the fate of women, particularly if you don't hold an MD Liscence.
What about rape? Do you think the emotional tolls to the mother and child are worth it? Hell no.
The thing is, it's not a poor excuse for a rebuttal. A poor excuse for a joke maybe, but not really a rebuttal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronic Chrissy
Your's however, immediately jumps to discussing the 2nd trimester. And then Gatekeeper mentions some 36 weeks period... Regardless, we're not talking about 2nd trimester, we were talking about fertilized eggs. Changing the subject entirely doesn't make for a very solid rebuttal either...
Or, were you trying to be funny? :wtf:
The rape victim can have an abortion in the first trimester.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Banana
as for men having no say I think that is wrong, both made the baby both should have a choice, it's unfortunate that women are the ones to sacrifice their body for 9 months, but it is also unfortunate when a possible excited father is over ruled and robbed of his potential child. Where's the choice in that?
EXACTLY!!!! Well said!Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Banana
How did I miss this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
The original article is regaurding the second trimester on, since unless there is an emergency situation NO DOCTOR WILL ABORT A BABY IN THE THIRD TRIMESTER, that leaves only the second trimester. So this talk about ferilized eggs is off topic because by the second trimester. I'm not sure if people hear understand just what that cluster of cells has grown into.
A regular pregnancy is 40weeks, really ten months not nine, but nine caledar months.
The Second Trimester (Weeks 13â??27)
Development. The second trimester marks a period during which the developing fetus becomes active, and begins to move, kick and swallow. Around the fifth month of pregnancy, the fetus gains the ability to turn from side to side or head over heels. It is usually around this point in the pregnancy (between the 18th and 22nd weeks) that most women experience "quickening", or the ability to feel fetal movement. It is also during this stage that the fetus begins to sleep at regular intervals. By the end of the second trimester the fetus is around 8 to 12 inches long and weighs up to 1 pound.
Here's some more
Fetal development during the second trimester includes the following:
The fetus kicks, moves, and can turn from side to side.
The eyes have been gradually moving to the front of the face and the ears have moved from the neck to the sides of the head. The fetus can hear the mother's voice.
A creamy white substance (called vernix caseosa, or simply vernix) begins to appear on the fetus and helps to protect the thin fetal skin. Vernix is gradually absorbed by the skin, but some may be seen on babies even after birth.
The fetus is developing reflexes such as swallowing and sucking.
The fetus can respond to certain stimuli.
The placenta is fully developed.
The brain will undergo its most important period of growth from the 5th month on.
Fingernails have grown on the tips of the fingers and toes, and the fingers and toes are fully separated.
The fetus goes through cycles of sleep and wakefulness.
Skin is wrinkly and red, covered with soft, downy hair (called lanugo).
Hair is growing on the head of the fetus.
Fat begins to form on the fetus.
Eyelids are beginning to open and the eyebrows and eyelashes are visible.
Fingerprints and toeprints have formed.(possible form of ID if you think of it)
Rapid growth is continuing in fetal size and weight.
The 20th week marks the halfway point of the pregnancy.
More...
Week 13: Baby flexes and kicks
You can't feel it yet, but your baby can move in a jerky fashion â?? flexing the arms and kicking the legs. This week, your baby might even be able to put a thumb in his or her mouth.
Your baby's eyelids are fused together to protect his or her developing eyes. Tissue that will become bone is developing around your baby's head and within the arms and legs. Tiny ribs may soon appear.
Here's another.
2nd TRIMESTER
@ 13 weeks:
***Vigorous fetal activity is observed: the child can kick, turn feet, curl and fan toes, make a fist, move thumbs, bend wrists, turn head, open mouth, press lips tightly together, jump and wave arms. (2,10)
***Breathing is practiced. (2)
@ 14 weeks:
***Most body surfaces are sensitive to pain. (5)
***Delicate finger movements present. (6)
@ 16 weeks:
***Child grasps with hands, swims and turns somersaults, fan toes, vigorous moving and kicking. Thumb sucking observed. (2,7)
***Child hears and reacts to external sounds: Classical music has a calming effect, while hard rock music has an agitating effect on the child. (7)
@ 18 weeks:
***Mother first feels baby's movements. (2)
@ 20 weeks:
***Clear sleep patterns evident. (2,7)
***A slamming door will provoke activity. (2)
***Child scratches himself. (7)
***Mother senses punching, kicking and elbowing by child on a regular basis. (7)
***Vocal cords now functional and used to cry. (7)
***Yawning begins. (6)
@ 21 weeks:
***Child documented during fetal surgery via hysterotomy to reach out of motherâ??s uterus and grasp surgeonâ??s finger with vigorous hand grasp. (11)
***Babies borne alive at this premature age can survive, but require intensive care. (12)
@ 24 weeks:
***Child sticks out tongue. (13)
Here are abortion methods used at different times during the pregnancy
Abortion Methods
First pic is a 9 month aborted fetus
The second 13 week old fetus
The third a fetus at 16 weeks
The last a fetus at 7 weeks
This is what we are talking about, not eggs and embryos, this is only the begining of the second trimester.
Oh I'm sorry. You're still talking about the article, and I was actually responding to the discussion that developed in the actual thread. Horrible how people lose sight of what they're supposed to be talking about huh?
Anyway... I'm going to say something that I don't even particularly believe but which I feel might be necessary to make a point. If you have a weak stomach, you may want to stop reading now. I'll wait a second to allow you to decide...
...
...
Fuck it. I think you should be able to abort the child anytime before the beginning of the second stage of labor. Until it's crowning abortion is perfectly viable.
Until the fetus goes through the birth canal, that one valve in his heart (I forget the name but you probably know it, you seem to have an amazing grasp on this vocabulary) does not close, and he's not breathing for himself. What do you call it when something lives inside you and grows, using the host organism for nutriention?
Right, a parasitic relationship. As long as it exists as such, it's completely the parents call as to when it comes out...
And no, it's still not the point. Because Gatekeeper thinks life begins at conception and I disagree. That was the point. You've got fantastic cut and paste skills though. I'm impressed.
so when does life begin Polymirize? IYHO
For discussion purposes, I'll take the other pole and say when the fetus is viable to survive on it's own (and no, I don't mean it can fend for itself, but you would have to cut the umbilical cord).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777
I must make a correction. The first pic is of a nine WEEK aborted fetus NOT nine MONTHS. Sorry.
If calling an unborn child a fetus or an embro and saying it is NOT alive or its NOT human helps you to kill babies.
then so be it. I certainly do not understand that its perfectly ok to kill a unborn child but if my dog was old and sick and i was to put him down i could go to jail.
Are we less then dogs?
:beatdeadhorse:
Your logic seems a bit off here my man. If it's unborn, which it is, how can it be alive? Contradiction at its best. You can't kill something that's not alive, simply put.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777
Polymirize continues to rack up credibility as he fends off one after another...Well done. :thumbsup:
that kind of credibility holds no water with me on this subject...... i mean its easy to say kill it while your the one breathing.
The whole debate hinges on when life begins. I guess its a personal choice. some say when the child draws the first breath and some (like me) say when the cells start to divide.
And by the way Bill Clinton allowed partial birth abortions. the doctor would stick the scalple into the babies brain before the shoulders popped out.
As long as 50% of the baby was still in the birth canal they cold perform the
operation.
why is it that we can do this...when the law states we can not kill someone that wants to die with dignity like Dr.Kavorkian? With assisted suicide?
It is my undying hope that we as a race of beings ABORT the one child that would have grown up to become a doctor and cured cancer or aids.
But who's to say an unborn child isn't alive, That's like saying a Kangaroo joey in it's mothers pouch isn't alive. Wait You'll argue the breathing part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Its a Plant
Ok Now I'll compare a fetus to a common house plant, the rubber tree. When you go to clone a rubber tree one method is to slit the stalk halfway and to tie on a bag of moist growing medium for the roots to form in. It still gets nurtishment from the main plant while growing a foundation for which it can grow independently. Even if the mother plant dies while the roots are forming if there is a begining of roots the cloned portion still attached can survive as the mother parishes. Is that clone not alive because it is begining a new being from an established one? Is that clone alive but only in the sense that it is still conected to the mother, thus only the mother is alive?
How about the parasites and organisms that live and breed and form inside of our bodies comsuming us? Are they not alive because we sustain them and transport their nutrients and oxygen to them. A tape worm is alive, so it a tumor. No brain you argue? A jelly fish and many sea creatures have no true brain only nuclie to dictate the function of the organism, and since every cell has a nuclie every cell single or making up fetus is alive, It just makes us feel better if we don't think that way.
These aren't plants or joeys or trees or jellyfish or tapeworms or tumors though.
We're talking about humans.
I said it before, and I'll say it again. If it's not breathing, and surviving on it's own, it's not alive. You cannot kill something if it hasn't been born (aka given life) yet. That's the road my logic takes me anyways. ~
You're too kind man. This is like shooting fish in a barrel. Which is to say, not to challenging but still loads of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Its a Plant
:D
Haven't seen as much of you now that you're mod'ing. Miss your posting, but I suppose you're busy. I understand. Hard out here to be a mod...
:thumbsup:
First, to clarify, I don't need any help killing babies. If I got paid to do it, I'd be a rich man, and I'd still do it on the weekends as my hobby.
No, not really.
You're probably right. However, legally, one side gets screwed either way here apparently. And I guess you've got to ask yourself that even if abortion isn't desirable (and it's not, I admit that) is it better to respect the rights and autonomy of some fetus, or of the actual sentient beings with lives of their own?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777
Chrissy has been so eager to prove that fetus are alive that she's cast the largest net she can. And I guess I'll have to conceed that fetus, and embryos, hell, even eggs, sperm and singular cells, are all alive.
When you reduce life to this term though, it becomes less special. You see, I consume life everyday. I'm a vegetarian, but my lunch is still a holocaust for the proud race of romaine lettace and cucumbers.
You've really boxed yourself into a corner, because now, in order to convince me that abortion is wrong, you'll also have to explain to me why we shouldn't operate on tumors, dislodge tapeworms, or eat... well, apparently anything other than rocksalt.
Ain't equivocation a bitch?
First I have to say I love science. There is a problem we all have.
That problem is what is life and what is not.
With our quest 2 find life elsewhere in the oceans or on another planet or moon with a sea of water under the ice how do we classify it? whould it look us in the face and say "hello" and pay my back taxes? Or be a single celled organism.
We operate on tumors because even tho they are alive they are cells that have gotten the genetic code wrong and have mutated.
A tape worm on the other hand don't have any other purpose then to get inside you and live off of you, unlike a potential human child it has no potential for love or hate. It wants to be there to harvest your energy. As with an embro or fetus it never asked to be there and it never asked to be decapitated in the womb.
But there is ONE FACT I will say, "Most woman that have made the choice to have an abortion have regreted the decision leaving some to become manic depressive.
Maybe once you have the potential of becomming a parent the choice to terminate wont be so clear because once its made there is no going back you will always remember "My aborted fetus should be 14 today." You will never forget the one you gave up to the DUMPSTER no matter how many childern you let live.
There is life in everything, we do consume life everyday. I won't cut a tree down if it is not needed, nor will I pull up carrots or onions from my garden if I don't intend on using them. Plant have just as much determination to survive as any other living things using every last resource to protect it's existance of itself and the extention of it's life through procreating. This theory alone is what brings us all here by smoking a plant that has given it's every bit of energy for the best oppertunity to reproduce while we deprive it of the chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Our main goal in life is survival, survival of ourselves, and survival of our species. A tumor is an abnormal formation of cells that threaten our wellbeing, a tape worm parasite sucking our nourishment both for their own survival. A fetus may be a parasite but is what our bodies are designed to host and accomidate, a womans whole body is designed to feed and house a human fetus, and a man is designed to impregnate. The reason we eat, breathe, excrete toxins, is to survive to make a new human to make a new human to ensure survival. That is the difference between a fetus and forgien parasite that is designed to feed off the life supply of other creatures.
Abortion is wrong because the fetus has a will to live and survive and in the event of an emergency the mothers body will sacrifice itself too save the baby with more determination than it would to save its own even if the curupt mind would like to choose otherwise.
"Life is a condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally. A diverse array of living organisms can be found in the biosphere on Earth. Properties common to these organisms â?? plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea and bacteria â?? are a carbon and water-based cellular form with complex organization and genetic information. They undergo metabolism, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt to their environment in successive generations.
An entity with the above properties is considered to be a living organism, that is an organism that is alive hence can be called a life form. However, not every definition of life considers all of these properties to be essential. For example, the capacity for descent with modification is often taken as the only essential property of life. This definition notably includes viruses, which do not qualify under narrower definitions as they are acellular and do not metabolise. Broader definitions of life may also include theoretical non-carbon-based life and other alternative biology."
There is you definition for life and a Fetus meets every critiria. They have fat stores to use, aa well as an attached plecenta to demonstarte motabolism, They can grow and develope, Respond to outside stimuli, and have the essential organs to reproduce(you could take an egg from a fetus and sperm from another fetus and create an embryo.
Outside of that definition I believe that an organism has life if it has the strive to fight and hold on to the energy which keeps it moving. A person in a vegitative state is dead by my standards, but a fetus is very much a life.