Lets get this clear

Bush owns every hair on every US troops head in Iraq. No matter what the Democrats do, it is Bushs' responsibility to protect our troops. If funding is cut off, then it is time to pull our troops out of harms way. The American people and the Democrats have spoken Stop this insanity. The only reason we are still there are the corporations, period. There is no military victory in Iraq, in fact it's highly doubtful of a political victory. We can't let an Egomaniac idiot keep our troops imprisoned in Iraq any longer. The greatest good for the US and the world is a pullout now. Just remember one thing, Viet Nam, the 10,000 day war. Dont let Iraq turn out like that. We would have been better off to have never gone to (either) but let's not make the Viet Nam mistake again. I fail to see the logic in staying. The only reason besides the corporate interests at stake, are the giant egos of the Neocons, Football logic, never give up, even when you're down 48-0. Totally idiotic! We lost that war in the first 180 days. We should have left then, but didn't. In football speak, this is like playing 25 overtimes and the score doesn't change, 48-0 insurgents.

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Originally Posted by medicinal

In football speak, this is like playing 25 overtimes and the score doesn't change, 48-0 insurgents.

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We know our casualty rate.....so what's the number for the insurgent/terrorists? Ya can't say a score when you've only seen half the game.

Have a good one!:s4:

P4B, I wasn't rating casulties, I was rating the win loss score of the total war. In my humble opinion the insurgents have won 48-zip. Now the reasons may be different than what you think. I say the insurgents have won world opinion, they have defeated the worlds most powerful army, an invader that is seen world wide as being in the wrong. I believe there may be 5-6 countries that go along with us, but even those are pressured by our enormous wealth and military might. We have the worlds most moronic leader, and he can't abandon his foibles because the corporations won't let him. Believe me, you need to go to another country and watch their news for a week or so. You'd find out how isolated we are in world opinion. I'd like to see you leave these childish notions behind, "God and country" and look at a real total world view, I mean come on, we're only 300+ million in a world of over 7 Billion people, that's 7 thousand million to 300 million, thats an average of 23.333 to one, or more like it one out of 23 people on the planet live here, what is that, like 4%, we're 4% of the population and want to rule the world. And out of that percentage, I'm sure the people that are in charge would be like .00000000004% of the worlds population, or less, Fantasyland for sure. Just Break yourself and say it, "We've lost in Iraq". You'll feel much better in the morning.

Medicinal fortunatly Psycho4bud is in the minority of Americans who feel that they should stay in this losing effort.60% of Americans want out of Iraq and that total is growing weekly.82% of the British want out also so it seems that more and more people are getting wise to the bullshit and starting to realize the truth.Did you hear John Mc cain saying that its safe to walk the streets of Bagdad and that things are getting better lol.He didnt mention that while he was strolling down one of the markets in Bagdad he had 100 soldiars protecting him and 5 helicopter gunships circuling his position.So yeah i guess Bagdad is pretty safe, what a fucking moron he is trying to bullshit his way into the white house.He is only kidding himself when he says Iraq is getting safer and that just makes him a joke.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

We know our casualty rate.....so what's the number for the insurgent/terrorists? Ya can't say a score when you've only seen half the game.

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Dude, this isn't GTA, you don't get points for killing people. And going into it with that kind of mindset just sets up a killer respawn rate for insurgency anyway.
Rebuilding psycho... the points are awarded for successful rebuilding of their infrastructure.

i hate this war and dislike this gov't, but i think we should give the proposed surge of troops 6 months. if it doesnt show any signs of help, then cut off all funds and pull out.

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

Rebuilding psycho... the points are awarded for successful rebuilding of their infrastructure.

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GREAT point but whenever I post about these types of things the dems just laugh. Schools, hospitals, sewer, water, electricity, the wet land revival, date tree projects, etc........... The ONLY time you'd ever see any of this on the news is if some assclown straps on a suicide vest and tries to blow it up.

This country was in complete neglect since "91" and then only certain Sunni regions enjoyed the wealth.

Guess the score has an update since insurgents don't give a rats ass about infrastucture.....48-0 Uncle Sam and the Iraqi People are in the lead!!:thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

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Originally Posted by medicinal

I fail to see the logic in staying.

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Well, I don't like that this stupid war was started in the first place, but I'd say there is a logic in staying now. The people who are fighting the U.S. may be made up of angry youth, but the leaders of such insurgent organizations are essentially gangs and criminals. Anybody who would send car-bombs into a crowded marketplace and blow up 80 innocent people is pure evil. And those same people, with the weapons and human power they have, would overthrow a government that hasn't fully established its security. Then we get another Saddam in power, and probably something worse.

Now are we stuck in another Vietnam? I'd say so. Is the situation even more conmplicated? probably. Can the U.S. even win this war and eventually bring and end to it.... and at what cost? It's almost impossible to say. Bush got us into a real shitstorm and I don't see a way out, but now that we're in we might as well do our best bring the best situation out of it possible.

Also, I could easily see Iran arming insurgent forces to take power and instal a sharia-law government friendly to Iranian interests. I don't even want war with Iran unless absolutely necessary, and I think there's even a lot of good people in both civilian and government, but IMHO Sharia law is the worst thing to happen to middle eastern culture in recent history.

And those same people, with the weapons and human power they have, would overthrow a government that hasn't fully established its security. Then we get another Saddam in power, and probably something worse.

We could only hope we'd get another Sadam. He kept the mullahs at bay with his non-religious government, and didn't allow foriegn assholes to mess with Iraq. I'm sorry, but it's too late. The sectarian war is racheting up and the Shia have the advantage of population. This country is going to be a suburb of Iran. Thanks Bush. The problem is, Bush wants to kill a few thousand more before he's out of office so the contractors can make a few billion more. (I wonder if you put a dollar amount on the head of every person killed in Iraq, how many thousands would it be?) When the Dems finally take the white house, No doubts here, they will pull out and leave Iraq to Iran. This area has only one solution and no-one is listening to Joe Biden. He said a couple a years ago to divide the place into shia, Sunni, and Kurds, Divvy up the oil money, and leave a small central government to administrate the wealth, only they (the Iraqis) are so corrupt, even that probably wouldn't work. Iraq is a failed state and we caused it. Sadam was a brutal dictator, one of many, and needed to be deposed, But by his own people. We should have never gone. Again, Viet Nam rings in, a war that impacted me personally, and we are well on our way to equalling and surpassing that boondoggle. Get out now, period. all the rhetoric will do no good.

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Originally Posted by medicinal

We could only hope we'd get another Sadam.

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Man are you serious? I could make even more arguments that we should get another Hitler, he did more for Germany than Saddam could ever hope to do for Iraq. But if you want another Saddam you're essentially saying you want another dictator who tortures innocents, imprisons political opposition, slaughters tens of thousands of people (Kurds), and keeps his people in poverty while building himself 7 palaces. You can just see what wonderfull folk the Hussein's are; His son Uday grabbed a woman on her wedding day, took her up to a hotel, and rapped her before throwing her out the 6th story window when he was done and watching her smack into the pavement. Then her new husband ran up to her body in tears, cursed at him "What's wrong with you you bastard!" and he had the guy taken away and executed. There's no way I'm ever going to accept people with that kind of (lack of) morality running a country.

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Originally Posted by mrdevious

Man are you serious? I could make even more arguments that we should get another Hitler, he did more for Germany than Saddam could ever hope to do for Iraq. But if you want another Saddam you're essentially saying you want another dictator who tortures innocents, imprisons political opposition, slaughters tens of thousands of people (Kurds), and keeps his people in poverty while building himself 7 palaces. You can just see what wonderfull folk the Hussein's are; His son Uday grabbed a woman on her wedding day, took her up to a hotel, and rapped her before throwing her out the 6th story window when he was done and watching her smack into the pavement. Then her new husband ran up to her body in tears, cursed at him "What's wrong with you you bastard!" and he had the guy taken away and executed. There's no way I'm ever going to accept people with that kind of (lack of) morality running a country.

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Did you notice the part where I said he was a brutal dictator, one of many. Why aren't we deposing all the others, like in the sudan etc. Sadam got what he deserved and his sons also, BUT and it's a large but, This war has killed a hundred times the amount of Iraqis that Sadam killed. I realize that he was a no good sleazebag and deserved killing, but we have destroyed that country to save a few hundred dissenters, plus the loss of American life. Please don't try and tell me it was worth it, if you do I'd like to know the reasons besides the obvious, profit!

You gotta love the new 'Army strong' ad campaign plastered all over sites like gamespot that attract a lot of impressionable kids and young teens. Gotta keep raking 'em in now that another 160,000 are doomed. Unfortunately, once in Baghdad, they won't cut into charismatic slow motion with a Jerry Bruckheimer soundtrack.

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Originally Posted by medicinal

Did you notice the part where I said he was a brutal dictator, one of many. Why aren't we deposing all the others, like in the sudan etc. Sadam got what he deserved and his sons also, BUT and it's a large but, This war has killed a hundred times the amount of Iraqis that Sadam killed. I realize that he was a no good sleazebag and deserved killing, but we have destroyed that country to save a few hundred dissenters, plus the loss of American life. Please don't try and tell me it was worth it, if you do I'd like to know the reasons besides the obvious, profit!

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I never said the war was worth it, I'm 100% against this war and the death/injury/economic toll is waaaay too high. All I was responding to is when you said we can only hope to get another Saddam. Of course there are brutal dictators more worthy of deposing, just look at Kim Jon Il.

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Originally Posted by B.Basher

You gotta love the new 'Army strong' ad campaign plastered all over sites like gamespot that attract a lot of impressionable kids and young teens.

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I watched a thing on that and it relates to our future weapons such as the Predetor and S.W.A.R.D.S. .....seems with the remote controlled robotics the military is looking towards more "game people" for their skills.

Have a good one!:s4:

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Originally Posted by mrdevious

I never said the war was worth it, I'm 100% against this war and the death/injury/economic toll is waaaay too high. All I was responding to is when you said we can only hope to get another Saddam. Of course there are brutal dictators more worthy of deposing, just look at Kim Jon Il.

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I was referring to the way he kept a secular control over the Mullas and kept the Iranians out and the sharia law at bay. We have now given Iraq to Iran, basically, and now there is no-one to control the Mullahs and the secular government is a thing of the past. This will end up a Muslim based country with Sharia law, the exact opposite of what was there and what Bush wanted, or, we'll be there for 10-20 years. Sadam was our biggest ally in the region. If Bushco could have realized that, we'd be much better off now and in the future. we had Sadam right where we wanted him, under our control and the region under control by him, was he tricky, well yeah, but we knew he had no WMDs and as long as he didn't gass anyone, things were cool. Yeah a few people were gettin raped and bumped off, thats what brutal dictators do. But we've killed somewhere between 100,000 and 800,000 Iraqis depending on who's figures you use, displaced a couple of million and made life a living hell for the remaining Iraqis, so in my estimation, Sadam was the lessor of the evils.