intelligent design > pure accident

I just smoked with my buddy and we were discussing dark matter, multi-dimension theories, and other such things that are way beyond our scale of comprehension...

we are both wondering how someone could see the complexity and intricacy of this universe (from clusters of galaxies down to atoms) and believe that there was not some sort of "higher intelligence" behind it, even if the "higher intelligence" simply aligned the big bang and just left us spinning since...

this is NOT a pro-creation stance but an intelligence behind the start of evolution question...

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Originally Posted by hazetwostep

I just smoked with my buddy and we were discussing dark matter, multi-dimension theories, and other such things that are way beyond our scale of comprehension.....

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so what your saying is you cant comprehend dark matter? what about anti matter? multi-dimension theories are more of a philosophical idea, although einsteins theory on black holes ties into the existance of alternate realities and time travel.

i think you missed the point of the post man...

Just because we don't understand it, doesn't mean a higher power created it.

We once thought that about the Sun - now we know its just a regular star.

To be honest I'm amazed enough at nature without having to twat about with god, intelligent design or any of that other superstitious twaddle.

Nature is fucking amazing, chance variation kicks-ass, Chaos rules, everything is just made up of energy and collisions - how cool is that?

you missed the angle again... i am not talking about understanding matter or science or whatever.. because in the grand scale of things we know less than 0.000000000001% of what there is to be known.

i am asking how people who see and understand the depth and complexity of this world, universe, etc. can believe it all came into existence by total chance... the complexity of the human anatomy and physiology created from an explosion?..

i (speaking for my friend and myself only) find that harder to believe than there being some form of higher power (no necessarily a spiritual entity) who designed it.. even if that higher power is just another carbon based life form within our same realm of existence that actually created our universe (which is nanoscopic to him) as a bi-product of his science project on his planet that our entire universe is just a piece of dust on.

do you get more my question now? hope so...

simply... how can you believe an explosion created complete order?

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Originally Posted by hazetwostep

i am asking how people who see and understand the depth and complexity of this world, universe, etc. can believe it all came into existence by total chance... the complexity of the human anatomy and physiology created from an explosion?..

simply... how can you believe an explosion created complete order?

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I think he got it man. His point was isn't it amazing enough that things do exist?

It's not total chance exactly, because each event provides a set of possibilities for the next event. More like dominos than some sort of "poof".

Given the amazing interrelatedness of nature isn't that incredible enough? Do you need to extend it to being consciously chosen in order to be impressed?

Polymirize got it in one.

In my defence I was 'thc-enabled' when I wrote that :)

And basically yes that's what I believe. I'm not saying its better/worse or anything (I know you know that) its just I don't give a lot of gravity ;) to ideas I can't see any evidence for.

The human body (like pretty much all life forms on this planet) wasn't created - it evolved. Organisms adapt to their environment or die, changes to environments select out species that are unable to evolve quickly enough (adapted) or are just plain unsuited to the change. There is plenty of evidence of this (FFS we are doing this as a species to others) and it all points to the same thing. We are made up of the same stuff as everything else is.

Chance variation aka Mutation is just one aspect. Out of deviancy comes genius imho.

We are a form of life like the others around us. We think we are special, we are most likely not. As a species we have a well developed brain compared to other animals on our planet so we can waste time on the internet arguing about who created the universe ;) At one time in history you could lose your life for such a statement.

I know its silly but really, we are well educated evolved apes ;)

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Originally Posted by Billionfold

Don't we create very small amounts of anti-matter here on earth already?

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YES!

http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...en_020918.html

yes but it isn't anything like Dan brown wrote about.

Haze,

I know were your coming from and i agree. The world is very amazing. And yes a God like being is a good explanation. But isn't the existence of a god like being far more amazing than the world. And wouldn't we want a much better explanation for that.

All i'm saying is that explaining the complexity in nature with God, is leaving us with an explanation that is far more complex and amazing than the problem.

harris,

i hear ya... everything in the universe is cause/effect though, right? so there has to be a primary cause to start everything into motion... correct? say the big bang was caused by gases... how did the gases get there? do you follow my thinking?

that thinking combined with the fact that all of this happening by chance seems harder to grasp then the thought of a higher power (whether of a spiritual dimension or of the one we are all in)...