How were you created?

Other: There was no beginning.

Life is a gamble. We're always placing our bets. Very little is certain in this world. We live and breathe probabilities. We are constantly making rational calculations as to what we need to do, and how we should structure our lives, in order to secure the goals that we value. We are always wagering our time and energy on one strategy or another in pursuit of our own hopes and dreams. To be alive at all involves some risk.

Life is process. We are always pursuiing goals and placing our bets on what will work and what's not worth our trouble. We are engaged in that process every day. But, we are also typically engaged in avoidance behavioir concerning some of the things that really matter most. We sleepwalk through life. I believe that the deepest reality is spirituality. We can live on a physical level, and even on an intellectual level, and miss it completely. They physical is the level of the body, the intellectual is the level of the mind. But the spiritual is the level of the heart, that core capacity we all have where thought and feeling and will all come together.

If you bet on athiesm and win, then what do you win? Not much. Perhaps any sense pleasures that you indulged yoursefl in within the confines of this life that you would have avoided for moral reasons if you had been making the contrary bet. But, in the end, you wouldn't know that you won. So you won't even have the pleasure of knowing you were right.

Everyone has self interest and that's in no way an immoral or unworthy attitude.

i'm actually a government experiment. i was grown in a jar of organic matter, and as such, i have neither a belly button, nor nipples.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by junther22

well when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much they do something called sexual intercourse. then the sperm fertilizes the egg and a babby starts growin

roughly 9 months later the babby is born

well thats how i came to be i dont know about you

---

What he said ^

I really don't understand how people can believe in God. It's a delusion. Seriously, how can anyone believe such a thing, when absolutely no concrete evidence exists for it?

I think there are more people that believe in a creator then who don't. Athiesm is an urban phenomenon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

I believe that the deepest reality is spirituality. We can live on a physical level, and even on an intellectual level, and miss it completely. They physical is the level of the body, the intellectual is the level of the mind. But the spiritual is the level of the heart, that core capacity we all have where thought and feeling and will all come together.

---

I equate the spiritual with the emotional. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine, but we live for each other. Extended isolation is considered the cruelest of punishments. When we send people to jail for murder, you'd think that the best thing would be to keep bad people away from each other, but no, that's too cruel. People get lonely when they have no other murderers and rapists to talk to. We live for each other's company.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

If you bet on athiesm and win, then what do you win? Not much.

---

Did you even read my last post?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

It's entirely as conceivable that there is a God that wants people to realize morals on their own, rather than through fear. God may or may not punish anyone based on their beliefs if such a God exists.

---

So being right and having the "winning" bet might be two different things. Who says there isn't a "heaven" that accepts moral atheists and the like?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Perhaps any sense pleasures that you indulged yoursefl in within the confines of this life that you would have avoided for moral reasons if you had been making the contrary bet.

---

I take deep issue with this. Not listneing to the bible is NOT equal to no morals. I'm not going to do something I consider immoral because I'm an atheist. I might do something that the Bible considers immoral, because the Bible isn't the be all and end all to morality. There is nothing immoral about premarital sex. The only argument against it is "the bible said so". That's not a very good argument in my eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

But, in the end, you wouldn't know that you won. So you won't even have the pleasure of knowing you were right.

---

And again, there are more than two bets. Did you retain any information about my last post at all? How can you make a good bet when you only see two of the near-infinite amount of choices? Not that my bet's any better, but I can tell you that I see many more than just two choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

I think there are more people that believe in a creator then who don't. Athiesm is an urban phenomenon.

---

1/6th of the world is either atheist or agnostic. Yes, the believers outweigh the non-believers. That doesn't make either faction any more or less right.

There are only 2 choices, either there is a divine creator, or there isn't. The wager appeals to as many people as possible, the more rational person places his bet on God, realising that serving the Lord serves the self interest, which everyone shares, because there is promise of the afterlife. More people believing means more people believe, it doesn't make them right or wrong because we know God can't be definitively proven or disproven. You don't bet on God out of fear but out of love and faith and rationality when you comprehend what athiesm offers you holisticly. Athiests can be as moral as christians. The bible isn't the be all, end all. It's a lot of things. It gives wisdom and advice about moraility. Every choice we make, we make alone, God does not make it for us nor does another man. We are condemned to freedom and therefore responsible for our actions. I don't think pre marital sex is wrong, i don't have to believe that to think i and the universe was created.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

There are only 2 choices, either there is a divine creator, or there isn't. The wager appeals to as many people as possible, the more rational person places his bet on God, realising that serving the Lord serves the self interest, which everyone shares, because there is promise of the afterlife.

---

Again, that's assuming that God wants or requires your worship. What if God despised your worship? It's not such a definite "yes or no" gamble, as you're trying to state. Believing that there is a God, is completely different than saying that you believe God has an afterlife for people who worship It.

If there is a God, that doesn't automatically mean that you get to heaven, even assuming that you've met what you perceive as the requirements. What you perceive as requirements may in reality be quite different to what the actual requirements are, again assuming It's set up such an afterlife in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

More people believing means more people believe, it doesn't make them right or wrong because we know God can't be definitively proven or disproven. You don't bet on God out of fear but out of love and faith and rationality when you comprehend what athiesm offers you holisticly.

---

Just to be clear, I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic. I'm claiming ignorance. I'm not betting at all, I refused to play the game in the first place. Now that in itself may be a bet at the wheel, but it's got the exact same odds as the bet that you're making.

Who knows, maybe you get to place your bet after the wheel has been spun (after death, in case that wasn't clear), so to speak. So "rationally", as you like to put it, I may actually have the best chance of receiving a good afterlife.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Athiests can be as moral as christians. The bible isn't the be all, end all. It's a lot of things. It gives wisdom and advice about moraility. Every choice we make, we make alone, God does not make it for us nor does another man. We are condemned to freedom and therefore responsible for our actions. I don't think pre marital sex is wrong, i don't have to believe that to think i and the universe was created.

---

If you believe the world was created, so be it. I've wouldn't want to argue that viewpoint. It's when you go beyond that single viewpoint that I call things into question. I hope you can see in this post that I'm arguing the philosophies you present that you believe this creator would posses, and saying that you have the rational conclusion, when it seems you haven't thought things out nearly enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Again, that's assuming that God wants or requires your worship. What if God despised your worship? It's not such a definite "yes or no" gamble, as you're trying to state. Believing that there is a God, is completely different than saying that you believe God has an afterlife for people who worship It.

God does want us to worship him, why would God despise someone worshipping him? It would be the opposite. If you beleive in God then it follows that you believe in the afterlife. It follows that if you worship God then you become one with God in the afterlife.

If there is a God, that doesn't automatically mean that you get to heaven, even assuming that you've met what you perceive as the requirements. What you perceive as requirements may in reality be quite different to what the actual requirements are, again assuming It's set up such an afterlife in the first place.

No, it doesn't. You have to believe in God and praise him to get in heaven. You can't just claim to believe in God, you must practise your faith to be recognized. What i percieve as the requirements are layed out in the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Just to be clear, I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic. I'm claiming ignorance. I'm not betting at all, I refused to play the game in the first place. Now that in itself may be a bet at the wheel, but it's got the exact same odds as the bet that you're making.

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Who knows, maybe you get to place your bet after the wheel has been spun (after death, in case that wasn't clear), so to speak. So "rationally", as you like to put it, I may actually have the best chance of receiving a good afterlife.

Maybes and mays aren't the best terms for rationality. Fundamentally, we should work with facts, or logical conclusions.

If you believe the world was created, so be it. I've wouldn't want to argue that viewpoint. It's when you go beyond that single viewpoint that I call things into question. I hope you can see in this post that I'm arguing the philosophies you present that you believe this creator would posses, and saying that you have the rational conclusion, when it seems you haven't thought things out nearly enough.

---

I go beyond that single viewpoint because there are many views from different people about the origins of God, so i made some available in this thread. Are they infallible? No. Do they make you think? Yes. And this my friend is all we can do and all we can know, that we are thinking, all the time. How we recieved this power is up to ponder.