Quote:
Originally Posted by powair
If we don't have free will, then we're being controlled. It's one or the other.
Do you feel that you have free will?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powair
If we don't have free will, then we're being controlled. It's one or the other.
Do you feel that you have free will?
What we feel would not be anything that could determine if we actually have free will. It could be possible that what you felt at that moment was predestined, you were predestined to feel that you did have free will even though in actuallity, you didnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
"A young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one imagination experiencing ourselves subjectively, that there is no such thing as death, and life is but a dream. Here's Tom with the weather." - Bill Hicks
God = electricity/light?
"Humans originally evolved from simple organic molecules containing carbon. Energy from the sun, lightning, and earth's heat triggered chemical reactions to produce small organic molecules from substances present in the atmosphere. These molecules were organized by chance into complex organic molecules such as proteins, carbohydrates, and nucleic acids that are essential to life.
And proof of this comes from a famous experiment. two American scientists, Stanley Miller and Harold Urey, carried out an experiment in which they attempted to simulate early earth conditions according to evolutionists. They mixed water vapor with ammonia, methane, and hydrogen gases. They then sent an electric current that simulated lightning through the mixture. Then they cooled the mixture of gases, producing a liquid that simulated rain. After a week, they collected the liquid in a flask and analyzed the chemicals therein. They found that three amino acids (amino acids constitute the basic elements of proteins, which are the building blocks of living cells) were synthesized."
No idea who wrote that. ^
I studied the Miller-Urey experiment extensively in a microbiology class I took. The study is not conclusive, since they were not able to further synthesize macromolecules, but it is extremely compelling evidence (in my opinion) that life could arise spontaneously.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiralOfDivinity
There are 4 steps (modern science's best guess):
1. Synthesis of Organic Compounds on Early Earth - conditions on early earth were likely extremely hot, anaerobic, and the atmosphere was probably exceedingly thick with water vapour and nitrogen- and sulfur-based compounds, along with carbon dioxide, methane, ammonia, hydrogen gas. It has been postulated that it was also a reducing (electron-adding) environment, in which compounds were easily formed and broken apart. Organic compounds (such as the amino acids produced in the Miller-Urey experiment, and nucleotide-like molecules) could have formed from simple molecules using energy from the sun and lightning. It is also possible that they formed near deep-sea vents, areas rich in inorganic molecules and heat.
2. Abiotic Synthesis of Polymers - Researchers have produced amino acid polymers by dripping solutions of amino acids onto hot clay or sand. The polymers formed spontaneously. These human-synthesized polymers are not exactly proteins, but the process shows us that polymers can indeed form spontaneously, without the help of enzymes or ribosomes.
3. Formation of Protobionts - "Life is defined partly by two properties; accurate replication and metabolism" (Campbell & Reece). Nucleic acids and their building blocks were probably not present in earth's very early life. Nucleic acids compose DNA and RNA, which are essential for life and replication. Self-replicating molecules and a metabolism-like source of the building blocks must have appeared at the same time. Protobionts could meet these conditions; protobionts are abiotic molecules surrounded by a membrane, capable of maintaining an internal chemistry different from that of the surrounding environment. They also exhibit simple reproduction and metabolism. A close example of a protobiont are the membrane-bound droplets of lipids (oil) when added to water (simplest example). Some of these liposomes store energy in the form of action potential across a membrane, and thus exhibit excitability.
4. The Dawn of RNA - RNA most likely came before DNA. Cech and Altman found that RNA carries out a number of enzyme-like catalytic (instigating) functions. Cech called RNA catalysts ribozymes, some of which are capable of making complementary, short copies of RNA. Others can remove segments of themselves (splicing). With the formation of such RNA molecules came the first natural selection. RNA can form a multitude of different shapes and sizes, and thus has a genotype (nucleotide sequence) and phenotype (physical characteristics). Certain RNA strands are therefore better suited to replicate than others, thereby evolution begins to occur as the best adapted are the ones reproducing. A protobiont that contained RNA would certainly have the advantage. Later, RNA provided the template for DNA, which caused an explosion of diversification.
congragulations you've stumbled upon the worlds most used argument
If that was true, and god is everywhere, then why do I need an outlet to plug my computer into?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiralOfDivinity
How does knowing something will happen equal causation?
I 'know' that more Americans will die in Iraq before we get out of there (statistically a certainty), but I am not the cause of their deaths. (Wish I was the 'Decider' for a day ;)
Each of us can watch people's behaviour and with time make certain predictions, God just does so with certainty due to perfect understanding.
Even so, this does not mean He 'predestined' us to be saved or damned, He just knows His children well enough to see what will happen (imho).
Note: This debate has been raging since before the Council of Nicea, so I know that reasonable people can have differing opinions.
Peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajMike
But how can he "know" what we are going to do, unless its predestined.
You cant predict with certainty unless you already know the outcome. If you already know the outcome that means there is no other alternatives that could happen. If there is only one course of action for that one being in that one situation, then it had to have been predestined.
On the flip side, one could say that God(s) might know the general outcome of things, like the Iraq war example you mentioned, and that the paths leading up to those general outcomes are our own decisions. But even then, its a form of predestination, its just giving you a bit more of the illusion that you are in control.
I still don't see how that constitutes God forcing one to make a certain decision, He simply knows what choices we will make with that free will.
I do agree that reasonable people can differ on this, especially with the semantics used in descriptions.