If God exists..

great post Res, you're a good writer :D

I can't help but agree with most of what you've said, but I don't think we're here for a specific reason. I've pondered this question many times, "What's the fucking point?" and unfortunately I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer. This leads me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that there really isn't any point. I don't believe in destiny, but I believe each person has a certain potential they may or may not achieve. If there were some cosmic, greater reason for our existence, then Free Will goes in trash can, and I cannot accept that.

I envy people who have a great faith in whatever they choose, because they can comfort themselves in believing that there is a point, there is an ultimate goal. I can't see that, nor am I really able to believe in most religions. Is there a god? Maybe, if there is I think he just got the ball rolling and now he's sitting back and enjoying the show.

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Originally Posted by Imotep

these pretzels are makin me thirsty.

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LOL!

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

The Big Bang.
Yes, a very plausible theory...but, where did the intitial substances come from?
lol...it's enough to make your head explode!
I think there are sciences that we have yet to discover, let alone comprehend

Res...

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It is a scientifically proven tht energy can neither grow or die, but it does change shape... therefore it is, will always be, and has always been.

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

I can't help but agree with most of what you've said, but I don't think we're here for a specific reason. I've pondered this question many times, "What's the fucking point?" and unfortunately I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer.

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(This may be because you're (we are) thinking in human terms.
I ask myself that very question each and every day; from the moment that I wake up (and realise that I haven't died in my sleep:mad: ) to the moment that I close my eyes at night (hoping that it will be the last time:rolleyes: ). I cannot find the answer either, and often arrive at the same conclusion as you do :o

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

I don't believe in destiny, but I believe each person has a certain potential they may or may not achieve.

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Interestingly, I feel the same, but had previously struggled to 'define' that feeling - you've just provided one...thanks:)

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

If there were some cosmic, greater reason for our existence, then Free Will goes in trash can, and I cannot accept that.

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This is the part where our shared thinking may part company :) lol
I don't believe that we do have ultimate free-will.
Sure, we can choose what clothes we're going to wear, or whether we want to drink tea...but, outside of those very basic choices, what choice do we really have?
In the society that we are raised (in our case, the western world), certain aspirations and targets are required of us. From the moment that we are born, parameters regarding behaviour, acceptablity, and even our thought-processes, are imprinted on our general psyche.
To explain:
There are two couples of the extreme opposite to the other; ie, couple A might be conservative, affluent, and of high social standing - whereas, couple B are violent, loud, and in poverty.
They each bourne a child, but the children are swopped between the two couples, and are brought up by them.
Neither couple knows of the others' existence, and have no idea that their child is not their kin.
Would you not agree, that the child raised by couple A, would most likely have a very different outlook on life to the child raised by B - even though, genetically speaking, it should not be so?
If we assume that I am right, then we can already see how our indivuality is somewhat tainted - before we can even begin to discover who we are, we are being told who we are.
We, in the western world, are constantly bombarded with advertisements and propoganda; we are being told what to wear, what to eat, how to look, and how to think. If we aren't seen in the lastest fashion, or sporting the niftiest phone, we feel that we have failed in some way.
So, our choices become very limited indeed - do I quit this ridiculous 'dog-eat-dog' society and go live on a desert island, or do I stay here and 'do my best to keep up'?
When you really think about it (and I have done so on many an occasion), could you really do it? I mean, is solitude, with none of the technology that we have grown accustomed to, something that would make you happy?
I think not :(
We have no choice...

BUT!!!
Underneath all of this NLP, lurks something that noone can manipulate - it's deep inside, and is the very nature of our being.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please allow me to introduce to you....your HUMAN SPIRIT!!! :D
This is the only real place where you have control of 'choice'...it is the thing that will set us apart from each other, and contains our moral code.

A senario:
I'm walking down the road, one night, and happen across a badly beaten man, in need of immediate medical attention.
I recognise this man to be my former best mate...who had shagged my wife...and was responsible for years of mental anguish, and the eventual break-up of my marriage. I have fantasied at what I have wished to do to him, and I guarrantee you, I have got a vivid imagination and somewhat twisted sense of humour.
So, I apparently have a choice.
I can, either
A - stand there and chuckle as I watch him die, or
B - call an ambulance, and do the necessary motions of keeping the bastard alive...

Thank you for the compliment, F L E S H, I sometimes wonder if I try to 'over-explain' stuff :rolleyes: (see above, init lmaoo)

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

I envy people who have a great faith in whatever they choose, because they can comfort themselves in believing that there is a point, there is an ultimate goal.

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I understand exactly what you mean :)

I like this thread, dudes...I think we're all keeping it nice and respectful, like.
Nothing wrong with a good debate, especially when there are such variations in ideas - all of which are valid.
Well, until conclusively proven otherwise, eh? ;);p

Res...

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

There are two couples of the extreme opposite to the other; ie, couple A might be conservative, affluent, and of high social standing - whereas, couple B are violent, loud, and in poverty.
They each bourne a child, but the children are swopped between the two couples, and are brought up by them.
Neither couple knows of the others' existence, and have no idea that their child is not their kin.
Would you not agree, that the child raised by couple A, would most likely have a very different outlook on life to the child raised by B - even though, genetically speaking, it should not be so?

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They might have a different outlook on life, certainly, but their potential remains somewhat the same. Whether they achieve it or not depends on many things, among others how their parents brought them up.

I know some people who were born to rich affluent parents, yet they amounted to absolutely nothing, squandering all their inheritance and becoming bums after their parents die.

I also know some people who were born to poor, yet hard-working people. They grew up with lots of ambition, in part because they don't want their own children to have it as hard as they did. They work, sometimes 2 jobs, just to be able to go to University, and when they managto get their degree, their life changes and they become the affluent parents of the first example.

Potential achieved, potential wasted, it depends on you. There's part of that decision that is explained by the personality and the upbringing of the person, then there's choice. Ultimately, no matter what the circumstances, the choice is ours.

Keep it going, I'm discovering stuff about myself just writing this down :eek:

:D

this is sum deep shit!! woah :eek:

who ever thought that stoners could be so ummmmmmm whats the word im lookin for :rolleyes:

deep?



:D

stoned?

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

They might have a different outlook on life, certainly, but their potential remains somewhat the same. Whether they achieve it or not depends on many things, among others how their parents brought them up.

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Exactly my point.
And it demonstrates the difference between 'in-built' (genetic) potential and 'socio-schematic' (environment) potential. In other words, genetic ability vs the awareness of that ability.
The child raised by couple B, may quite possibly have the genetic ability (inherited from its parents of couple A), but may never recognise that potential because of the restrictions placed upon them by their socio-schematic ideals.
If the child had been raised by its natural parents, then we might assume that the genetic potential would have been nurtured and allowed to progress; it is expected of them.
Of course, as you pointed out in your examples, FLESH, that isn't always the case...which brings me, quite nicely, back to my point about our lack of ultimate choice.

In the Matrix (Reloaded), there was a discussion between Neo and the Counsellor, about the thing that sets us apart from machines. Neo suggested that we have choice, and therefore ultimate power and control over the machines. The Counsellor, however, pointed out that if we excersised that power, then the ramifications could be disasterous (ie, in the discussed case of shutting down the life-support mechanism). He showed that, whilst we 'think' we have choice, in fact, we do not.

We don't have ultimate choice.
However, we do (some of us) have the gift of 'independent thought'.

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

I also know some people who were born to poor, yet hard-working people. They grew up with lots of ambition, in part because they don't want their own children to have it as hard as they did. They work, sometimes 2 jobs, just to be able to go to University, and when they managto get their degree, their life changes and they become the affluent parents of the first example.

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This is very true - and we can see examples of this in every walk of life.
The 'choice' to break free from the comfort zone that we find ourselves in, is one that we can all make. Some, like the ones that you describe, have the courage to persue their ambitions - others prefer to accept their position in life (no matter how unsatisfactory that existence is), because the mere thought of change scares the shit out of them.
Using your example, the child has gained independent thought, and can no longer accept the situation that they are in - believing that they 'deserve better than this'. In gaining their independent thought, they discover a potential within them and strive to acheive it.
They now have a choice; do I accept my situation, or do I change it?
It is probably the biggest choice that we have - but it still only pertains to the individual, and is relatively small, in comparison to the whole.

If we accept that independent thought allows us to change our lives, regardless of our socio-schematic situation and genetic potential, then we must now question where that ability comes from.
For example, I come from a background that doesn't subscribe to such things as religion and philosophy, and yet, here I am discussing those very subjects. There is obviously something deep inside me that causes me to question my existence, and the dimension in which I reside. Where has that come from?
Why can't I accept that 'this is it'?
Furthermore, why do I reject the answers placed before me (ie, religion), and yet entertain the idea of a 'divine influence'?
Is my psyche driven by a protocol which controls my deepest thought patterns, and if so, to what ends am I being steered towards?

If we look at Man's acheivements over the years, what is the fundamental question that has been responsible for those acheivements?

"What happens if...?"

And, who is asking the question?
Is it just our human curiousity?

Certainly, if we view life from our own perspective, then we can say that we are merely satisfiying our own humanistic appetite for knowledge - but we are just the inhabitants of one small planet within a universe that we cannot even begin to measure the size of...surely we can't be so ignorant that we think that we are the only intelligent beings around.
And given that ideology, we must also accept that ours is not the only dimension that exists.

Your thought so far?
:D
Res...

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

If we accept that independent thought allows us to change our lives, regardless of our socio-schematic situation and genetic potential, then we must now question where that ability comes from.
For example, I come from a background that doesn't subscribe to such things as religion and philosophy, and yet, here I am discussing those very subjects. There is obviously something deep inside me that causes me to question my existence, and the dimension in which I reside. Where has that come from?
Why can't I accept that 'this is it'?
Furthermore, why do I reject the answers placed before me (ie, religion), and yet entertain the idea of a 'divine influence'?
Is my psyche driven by a protocol which controls my deepest thought patterns, and if so, to what ends am I being steered towards?

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Easy... because we're stoners.... :eek:

lol, just kidding :D

I think people usually require a spark to start to think about these things. Something like a traumatic event, death, illness, problems at home, etc. If everyone was just happy and everything's going good, people don't tend to concern themselves with 'the Meaning' or 'God' or other such things.

I had a disease this past year, and I'm not even sure it's completely gone yet. I think about death (maybe I'm overreacting a bit, but meh...) and what could happen, I think about what it all means, and 99.9% of the time I get so frustrated because there is no point. Why do I, an otherwise healthy 24-year-old, have to contract this disease? Why is my life in danger when I've done nothing to deserve something like this?

I don't know, and I guess that's why I like weed :D It helps to ease the anxiety, or stress, that comes about by thinking too much.

Heh, one thing's for sure, this discussion has evolved quite a bit, and just by typing out my thoughts, I learned a bit about myself, and what I couldn't figure out on my own, RES put into words for me. So cheers RES, and the others who wrote something down! Yay!