Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Here is a quote from me since you seem to be confused for what I'm asking:
From another post I made in this thread
And yet another post I made in this thread
And here is the original post I made asking the question:
As you can see since people seem to either ignore or be oblivious to what I'm asking I've gone through and bolded parts of my quotes.
Everyone here has failed to answer my question.
In regards to the following:
I've already done this in the Mccain thread in detail which did take some time. I'm not going to do it again. If you're interested you can take a look over in that thread.
McCain outlines his plan and tells you HOW he's going to make it happen.
Obama has said how, but my point this entire time is that Obama supporters cannot tell me HOW he's going to support the changes he proposes.
For someone who's not interested in healthcare you seem to want to argue this debate whole heartedly. You did provide examples to half the question but failed to answer the other half.. Even when you answer that other half I still have yet ANOTHER question for you. I have thought this very far into the future.
I don't feel Obama offers ideas. He offers half-hearted answers that will just give the American people what they want to hear. No one seems to realize that in actuality it is much more difficult to do what he proposes than the way he makes it sound... furthermore the way he plans on getting the money will directly effect the Job Employment rate in a negative way.
Sorry. I'm not giving anyone in this thread a free pass. I do know Obama's plans and how he plans to achieve them. I see the negatives and the few positives of it. I've even given hints as to how he plans to make the changes in hopes that some Obama supporter would speak up.
Everyone has sat silently when I ask them HOW. What and HOW are linked together. You can't say what you plan to do without saying how you plan to do it.. in addition after that is said you have to make it evident how it will effect the American people, for good and for bad.
No one here has said anything.. I've only received mediocre answers explaining what he plans to change.
Without all 3, I'm sorry but as I said before in the following quote:
The determining factor if the plan is worthwhile is listening after the above has been satisfied would be to determine the IMPACT would be to the American People.
Again no one here has answered my Question. I feel that thcbongman has come the closest to giving me a legitimate response in the Obama vs McCain debate.. Even then I still only agree with it half way.. or slightly less than half way.
All the other posts I've seen have failed to answer the questions I'm posing or have failed to put up a good comparison between Obama and McCain
Please read that and I think you'll find the core point I'm actually trying to get at by asking these questions.
If not maybe P4B or someone else who might realize what I'm getting at can chime in and explain; but I myself am not handing out a free pass.
It's cliche but knowledge is power.
Daihashi, I am sort of done with the point-by-point back and forth we've been having in this thread and others. It seems like we just drive eachother forward, making long, boring threads that no one else wants to participate in. In this case, I was getting really annoyed with you insisting I had not answered a question you felt you had posed to me. Now that I read the quotes you posted regarding the question you felt I was avoiding, I see that with the exception of one of them, YOU NEVER POSED YOUR QUESTION TO ME. Those quotes were from replies you made to other people, not to me. From my point of view, you asked TCHBongman and BigWeed questions, and I sort of resented you getting on my back for avoiding a question you posed to someone else. Like I said, these back-and-forth threads get long and boring --- I skim them if they don't look like they are going anywhere or if they are not an area of particular interest to me, and I never even read the question you posed these other people until now.
The one exception is the quote, "Please explain to me what he has proposed in DETAIL and how he plans to achieve it IN DETAIL.." To be honest, I didn't figure I owed you any additional detail, because my post was in response to BigWeed, and I thought I had told him what I wanted to say in adequate detail. That's why I told you if you wanted more detail, you should look it up. I thought you were looking for information with that question, not making a point about how I wasn't capable of providing the detail you wanted.
Now that I see your questions to these other people, I see that you are making a distinction between WHAT a person says they intend to do, and HOW they intend to accomplish what they say they will do. That is definitely a fair question. It seems your focus is mostly on how will they pay for it. I will now answer your question --- I DON'T KNOW!
I have no details on how Obama will pay for what he proposes. My feeling is that in one form or another, we as a society already pay for healthcare for the uninsured. If they can't pay for it themselves, we pay for it with unnecessary ER visits where patients can't be turned away. Or hospitals absorb the costs and pass them on to us in our own higher rates. Or people do simply go without care they can't afford, which I don't think is right. I think we probably pay more handling the unisured this way, than we would if we just bit the bullet and subisized their care up front.
Now that I read back on these posts, you claim to already know the answer to the question you asked about HOW Obama will pay for his plan, but you aren't going to say. And once we can answer that question, you proimise to dazzle us with another even more amazing stumper of a question. You said you have planned the whole discussion far into the future. It's sort of a Da Vinci Code game of healthcare policy where one clue only leads to a more mystifying clue. Perhaps we can call it the Daihashi Code. Let me know if you get anyone to play. I'm going to decline. But if you want to say how you think Obama will pay for his plan and then provide the other peice of information, that might be interesting and add to the discussion. If not, I will be OK with not knowing for now.
I did check out the speech you cut and paste into the McCain thread for the information about HOW McCain will pay for his plan, but I did not see it there. You said it was there, so maybe I missed it. Those $2500 - $5000 tax credits are going to add up if milions of people take him up on his offer, but I didn't see how he will pay for it. Do you have that info? I really am asking becasue I want the info, not because I want to stump you with a question I already have the answer to.
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonrider
I did check out the speech you cut and paste into the McCain thread for the information about HOW McCain will pay for his plan, but I did not see it there. You said it was there, so maybe I missed it. Those $2500 - $5000 tax credits are going to add up if milions of people take him up on his offer, but I didn't see how he will pay for it. Do you have that info? I really am asking becasue I want the info, not because I want to stump you with a question I already have the answer to.
Barack Obama plans to place payroll taxes on Corporations and the Rich.
Keep in mind this is just how I forsee it happening. Obama hasn't actually gone in depth enough for me to say "oh that's how it is".
I cannot say for certain the population of the Rich, but the population of the super rich is 0.7% of the United States. I personally estimate the Rich population to be no more than 10% of the US population.
In addition to this he wants to put a payroll tax on corporations. Which is fine and dandy except corporations have this tendency to roll over things onto their employees. This can be seen in the current employer Healthcare system in which most employees still have to pay some nominal fee to receive health care. Currently these employers receive a tax break for providing healthcare.
Under the new system that he proposes I am concerned that 10.7% of the rich can't insure 304 million Americans. In addition to this I am concerned that the taxing of corporations who had previously been receiving tax breaks to provide health insurance will lead to lay offs. The easiest way to protect profit is by cutting back on your work staff. You lose the cost it takes to employ them in addition you won't be penalized by that one person by the government under this proposed Universal health care bill.
That's the way I see it playing out. Whether it plays out that way or not I cannot say for certain. In another post I used hypothetical tax figures just as an example. I would post them again but I fear getting flamed by some posters on here. Heaven forbid I post some hypothetical data since the actual data is not available.
In regards to McCain. He wanted to shift the Tax breaks that the government previously gave to Employers and give it to the people instead. People will still have the option to get Employer based insurance if it's available or if it's even wanted, but he also wants to offer a second option by redistributing money that would normally be given as tax breaks to Large companies and give them to Americans instead. It's simply a redistribution of money.
I think I had said all this in another thread but to be honest the threads on here have gotten so intermingled I can't tell you where it's at now.
Honestly; as I've said before, I feel both plans are poor however if you're looking at it just from a comparison stand point then my opinion is that McCain's plan will have less Impact on the American people.
Really I'd like for them to do some light regulation just to get everything back on par as opposed to handing out coupons or trying to propose new taxes. The problem with this, for me anyway, is that I'm wary of giving the government anymore authority than they already have. I'm an advocate of smaller government.
All I know is that I am against socialized healthcare after seeing what I've seen in some other countries. We are a capitalist country and a socialized medical program that health care providers are forced into would probably hurt the industry more than it would help. If they aren't making money then naturally there will be cutbacks in the medical work force or a cut back in the work forces salary; which would probably be motivation for a few of them to leave and go into other fields anyway.
Again with the exception of what Obama plans to do and what McCain plans to do; everything I've said here has been what I foresee happening.
It's sad that I'm having to put a disclaimer at the end of my posts now. :(
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
No offense, but you just copy pasted directly from barack obama's website without any backing or explanation of your own.
Barack Obama wants to place I think something in the tune of 3.5% - 4% payroll/income tax to the people... Taxing more of our income while we're already in an economic downturn with inflated oil prices and getting burned at the pumps and really in all markets everywhere. Please keep in mind that some employers don't even offer insurance but yet they are going to get taxed anyway. That is what universal means.. EVERYONE. If a company does not comply with this they will be charging them the cost.
Guess what, the employer is going to roll over that cost onto the people by either charging for it or layoffs.
And the small business that will remain exempt from this will still end up with it's employees not having health care.
Will you be one of the people that's laid off? Or will you simply be one of the people who's losing 4% more of their income along with other tax hikes that he's sure to put in place.
This is a man that says he's fine with the oil price increase. He does not mind it! In a time when our economy is in a downturn and people need more money in their pockets.. he's just going to take it away.
Now then back to your post, which wasn't really a post but more of a copy paste that you could've just done last night. Especially considering it's right there on his website or could be found with a 5 second google search.
I asked you if you knew what.. and How he was going to do it.. and I asked for an explanation of how this is going to impact the American people. You've at least already answered the What, but that question has been touched on slightly from at least 2 other posters. So this information is not something new.
Really what I'm trying to do here is just get people to think. I don't mean this in a rude gesture, more as a friendly American gesture.
Regardless of anyone's political stance I would like to see more Americans simply not fall pray for the media masses that like to lead the people as if they were sheep or cattle.
ps: many of mccains and obama's ideas actually overlap. Did you even notice that? Would you rather lose 3-5% of your income or would you rather the government just give you the money that's needed for insurance and put the power IN YOUR hands.
This is just another example about how the democrats generally want to take away our right to choose.
pss: Obama is not exactly poor. He and his wife had a combined *reported* income of $984k in 2006... he received a book advance for 1.9 million dollars and In 2005, shortly after Obama had been elected to the Senate, his wife recieved a pay raise increase taking her from $121,910 in 2004 to $316,962 in 2005. Keep in mind that this is shortly after Obama was elected into office. Coincidence, maybe.. but the timing is too close for it to just be coincidence. In addition to this it is interesting to note that both Barack Obama and his Wife hold major disdain towards the health care system but still have no problems participating in the abuse.
Why not turn the pay raise down?
Obama is not as poor as you'd like to believe.
These were only reported incomes. Who knows what he's getting on the side.
Don't fall into the hype!
Those employers that you are are going to get taxed for failing to provide a health insurance plan are also those same companies that would receive incentives if they were to implement one. I don't see any logical fallacy in that. We are moving in a direction where socio-economical business models thrive. It's been proven that in the long-run it helps businesses.
All and all, there aren't major differences between McCain and Obama's plans. Obama wants more regulation and oversight, McCain wants to use market forces more, but all and all, either plan will end up raising taxes. I'm not sure how McCain will dole out a $2500 tax credit without sacrificing (or raising) something.
McCain's plan has some good ideas like the tax-credit incentive to be used to purchase any insurance company of your choice. If there was middle ground between Obama's and McCain's health, it'd be a sound plan.
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
A lot of people in this thread REALLY need to sit down, smoke a bowl, and get away from the computer.
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Quote:
Originally Posted by katyowns
A lot of people in this thread REALLY need to sit down, smoke a bowl, and get away from the computer.
Most of us are sitting down, smoking a bowl while writing these posts! The get away from the computer bit I can't argue with :jointsmile:
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Barack Obama plans to place payroll taxes on Corporations and the Rich.
Keep in mind this is just how I forsee it happening. Obama hasn't actually gone in depth enough for me to say "oh that's how it is".
I cannot say for certain the population of the Rich, but the population of the super rich is 0.7% of the United States. I personally estimate the Rich population to be no more than 10% of the US population.
In addition to this he wants to put a payroll tax on corporations. Which is fine and dandy except corporations have this tendency to roll over things onto their employees. This can be seen in the current employer Healthcare system in which most employees still have to pay some nominal fee to receive health care. Currently these employers receive a tax break for providing healthcare.
Under the new system that he proposes I am concerned that 10.7% of the rich can't insure 304 million Americans. In addition to this I am concerned that the taxing of corporations who had previously been receiving tax breaks to provide health insurance will lead to lay offs. The easiest way to protect profit is by cutting back on your work staff. You lose the cost it takes to employ them in addition you won't be penalized by that one person by the government under this proposed Universal health care bill.
That's the way I see it playing out. Whether it plays out that way or not I cannot say for certain. In another post I used hypothetical tax figures just as an example. I would post them again but I fear getting flamed by some posters on here. Heaven forbid I post some hypothetical data since the actual data is not available.
In regards to McCain. He wanted to shift the Tax breaks that the government previously gave to Employers and give it to the people instead. People will still have the option to get Employer based insurance if it's available or if it's even wanted, but he also wants to offer a second option by redistributing money that would normally be given as tax breaks to Large companies and give them to Americans instead. It's simply a redistribution of money.
I think I had said all this in another thread but to be honest the threads on here have gotten so intermingled I can't tell you where it's at now.
Honestly; as I've said before, I feel both plans are poor however if you're looking at it just from a comparison stand point then my opinion is that McCain's plan will have less Impact on the American people.
Really I'd like for them to do some light regulation just to get everything back on par as opposed to handing out coupons or trying to propose new taxes. The problem with this, for me anyway, is that I'm wary of giving the government anymore authority than they already have. I'm an advocate of smaller government.
All I know is that I am against socialized healthcare after seeing what I've seen in some other countries. We are a capitalist country and a socialized medical program that health care providers are forced into would probably hurt the industry more than it would help. If they aren't making money then naturally there will be cutbacks in the medical work force or a cut back in the work forces salary; which would probably be motivation for a few of them to leave and go into other fields anyway.
Again with the exception of what Obama plans to do and what McCain plans to do; everything I've said here has been what I foresee happening.
It's sad that I'm having to put a disclaimer at the end of my posts now. :(
Well, I think the reason you may need to put a disclaimer on your posts is that before you claimed you KNEW how Obama intended to pay for his plan and you were waiting for the rest of us to give you the RIGHT answer. And you claimed in the McCain thread that the speech you had posted had explained HOW McCain intended to accomplish his proposed, as opposed to posts by Obama supporters that you claimed did not explain HOW. But now you say that in both cases you don't actually KNOW either of these things and it is really just how you forsee it happening.
If you are merely going to make predictions for how you forsee these plans being implemented, then I feel my guesses are probably as good as yours. Here is how I FORSEE it happening based on the post by BigWeed and your post in the McCain thread.
BigWeed's post has several points about lowering teh cost of healthcare overall, but only this one bullet point that speaks to where the money for the Government-sponsosred healthcare plan will come from:
Quote:
Employer Contribution: Employers that do not offer or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small employers that meet certain revenue thresholds will be exempt.
So Obama did say HOW he would pay for some of it. Some of the money does come from added payroll taxes to companies who do not already offer plans. That actually seems very reasonable to me. I would imagine there will be additioal costs not covered by this payroll tax, and I do not know where that money will come from. Surely it will be in the form of some other kind of tax, but I do not want to guess what it will be.
I checked through the enitre McCain speech and he did not say HOW he will pay for any of it.
You said you forsee this:
Quote:
In regards to McCain. He wanted to shift the Tax breaks that the government previously gave to Employers and give it to the people instead. People will still have the option to get Employer based insurance if it's available or if it's even wanted, but he also wants to offer a second option by redistributing money that would normally be given as tax breaks to Large companies and give them to Americans instead. It's simply a redistribution of money.
But I do not read it that way at all. This is what McCain said:
Quote:
But for every American who wanted it, another option would be available: Every year, they would receive a tax credit directly, with the same cash value of the credits for employees in big companies, in a small business, or self-employed. You simply choose the insurance provider that suits you best. By mail or online, you would then inform the government of your selection. And the money to help pay for your health care would be sent straight to that insurance provider. The health plan you chose would be as good as any that an employer could choose for you. It would be yours and your family's health-care plan, and yours to keep.
He said every American who wanted it could recieve a credit in the same amount as the credits businesses recieve. He did NOT say that money was being shifted from businesses to employees. What would be the purpose of that? It wouldn't solve anything to give the credit to the employee instead of to the business if the employee already has insurance. The way I read it is if a person does not already have insurance through an employer, or a person is unemployed, the person can get a credit in the same amount as a businees would recieve if a business was providing that person's health care. That's the only way it would make any sense and get any more people insured. So since the person did not previously have insurance, no business was recieving an exisitng credit for that person, and the money can't just be "shifted" to that peerson. That person's credit is a new expense that must be paid for, and McCain does not say where that money will come from. I'm not sure how many americans are unisured, do you? I'm guessing 40 million? If 40 million uninsured people take advantage of a $2500 credit, that's $100 billion a year McCain needs to come up with.
Actually, I do not know which of these plans I would favor, and until we know more details and what they would cost, we won't be able to compare them. I agree that I do not want socialized medicine, but fortunately nothing in either of these plans looks anything like socialized medicine. Not even close. McCain provides a subsidy to anyone who wants to buy their own healthcare inusrance. Obama does the same for those who meet certain income requirements. And Obama creates a national healthcare insurance plan for those who want it, with guaranteed eligibility and portability. Neither one is forcing anyone into a single-payer system or requiring that you buy into a particular plan. So if your main concern is that you don't want to see socailized healthcare, then it looks like you should have no worries.
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonrider
Well, I think the reason you may need to put a disclaimer on your posts is that before you claimed you KNEW how Obama intended to pay for his plan and you were waiting for the rest of us to give you the RIGHT answer. And you claimed in the McCain thread that the speech you had posted had explained HOW McCain intended to accomplish his proposed, as opposed to posts by Obama supporters that you claimed did not explain HOW. But now you say that in both cases you don't actually KNOW either of these things and it is really just how you forsee it happening.
This is what's irritating me. I said exactly where Obama plans to get his money; which no one had said before. So I finally spout it out and you say I don't know how he gets his money. I tell where McCain plans to get his money, but you claim that I don't know.
They both stated how they intend to get their money. It was clearly written and I don't know how you can claim otherwise.
Quote:
Barack Obama plans to place payroll taxes on Corporations and the Rich.
Quote:
n regards to McCain. He wanted to shift the Tax breaks that the government previously gave to Employers and give it to the people instead.
Guess what. Those are both explanations on where they plan to get their money. Please show me where you offered this up prior to me asking this question repeatedly.
Quote:
If you are merely going to make predictions for how you forsee these plans being implemented, then I feel my guesses are probably as good as yours. Here is how I FORSEE it happening based on the post by BigWeed and your post in the McCain thread.
You have to try to forsee what is happening. You say this as if you're faulting me. If you don't try to see how each plan will work and the Impact of these plan then you are just making blind choices. Regardless of who's plan you want; I simply want people to think. I've said this several times before. No one has told me what the Impact that Obama's plan will have on the American people and it wasn't until Bigweed's post much later that he mentions the payroll tax on the Rich and corporations.
You are correct. Your opinions and feelings are as good as mine and I've been wanting to hear them. Contrary to what people may think of me all I want is to hear people's Ideas and thoughts on what will happen in regards to these two politicians and if their ideas actually make their way into Law and it's impact on Americans.
Quote:
BigWeed's post has several points about lowering teh cost of healthcare overall, but only this one bullet point that speaks to where the money for the Government-sponsosred healthcare plan will come from:
So Obama did say HOW he would pay for some of it. Some of the money does come from added payroll taxes to companies who do not already offer plans. That actually seems very reasonable to me. I would imagine there will be additioal costs not covered by this payroll tax, and I do not know where that money will come from. Surely it will be in the form of some other kind of tax, but I do not want to guess what it will be.
I think I acknowledged he had hit the nail on the head here. I never disputed it. Matter of fact I replied on how I thought it would impact the American people, as can be seen below:
Honestly Obama's plan truely does offer more and I don't think I could ever argue against this. What I can argue is the impact this plan will have on the American people.
The super rich make up 0.7 of the population, and I'm going to make up a number here for the rich, a generous number I feel (meaning I'm probably overestimating)... we'll say 10% of the population are the rich. So now we have 10.7% of the population trying to support 89.3% of the rest of the US. Keep in mind that the majority of the members of Congress and most high US officials also fall into this 10.7%. Assuming that Congress for once decided to do what's best for the people and not what's best for themselves. The tax rate on this 10.7% would have to be signifigant in order to aid in support of the remaining 270 million (current population is about 304million, I subtracted 10%), we'll say they're getting 15% tax increase (another estimated number.. not fact). Let's factor in the corporations whom hadn't been previously taxed. They are going to want to protect their profits. Layoffs are the easiest way to reduce cost in order to keep profits up. Through Layoffs the corporations free up the cost it would take to pay that person, in addition they will not be penalized in taxes for that 1 person since they are no longer with the company.
Anyway you slice it or dice it it's a win/win situation for the corporations. Directly leading to an increase in Job unemployment. At this point you're exchanging one problem for another. This also directly effects the economy. If people don't have money to spend then they can't buy goods, which means companies don't make money.. and I think you can see how this cycle would just keep repeating itself in a downward spiral.
Quote:
I checked through the enitre McCain speech and he did not say HOW he will pay for any of it.
That's really uncanny because I could've thought I said it multiple times. A few of them in direct reply to you. Here are a few:
In regards to McCain. He wanted to shift the Tax breaks that the government previously gave to Employers and give it to the people instead. People will still have the option to get Employer based insurance if it's available or if it's even wanted, but he also wants to offer a second option by redistributing money that would normally be given as tax breaks to Large companies and give them to Americans instead. It's simply a redistribution of money.
And here is another direct quote from the McCain thread in which I asked several people to go and read as it actually had exact data on what McCain proposes:
Under current law, the federal government gives a tax benefit when employers provide health-insurance coverage to American workers and their families. This benefit doesn't cover the total cost of the health plan, and in reality each worker and family absorbs the rest of the cost in lower wages and diminished benefits. But it provides essential support for insurance coverage. Many workers are perfectly content with this arrangement, and under my reform plan they would be able to keep that coverage. Their employer-provided health plans would be largely untouched and unchanged.
But for every American who wanted it, another option would be available: Every year, they would receive a tax credit directly, with the same cash value of the credits for employees in big companies, in a small business, or self-employed. You simply choose the insurance provider that suits you best. By mail or online, you would then inform the government of your selection. And the money to help pay for your health care would be sent straight to that insurance provider. The health plan you chose would be as good as any that an employer could choose for you. It would be yours and your family's health-care plan, and yours to keep.
Tax credit directly instead of the employers getting the Tax Credit.
You said you forsee this:
But I do not read it that way at all. This is what McCain said:
Quote:
He said every American who wanted it could recieve a credit in the same amount as the credits businesses recieve. He did NOT say that money was being shifted from businesses to employees. What would be the purpose of that? It wouldn't solve anything to give the credit to the employee instead of to the business if the employee already has insurance. The way I read it is if a person does not already have insurance through an employer, or a person is unemployed, the person can get a credit in the same amount as a businees would recieve if a business was providing that person's health care. That's the only way it would make any sense and get any more people insured. So since the person did not previously have insurance, no business was recieving an exisitng credit for that person, and the money can't just be "shifted" to that peerson. That person's credit is a new expense that must be paid for, and McCain does not say where that money will come from. I'm not sure how many americans are unisured, do you? I'm guessing 40 million? If 40 million uninsured people take advantage of a $2500 credit, that's $100 billion a year McCain needs to come up with.
You're right, it is flawed; but considering that naturally some people are going to keep their employer based insurance and some others are not the $100 billion a year figure is skewed. We can't come up with an exact number because we don't know the number of individuals that will enroll.
Perhaps I assumed that it would be a shift in taxes since in the paragraph above it he discusses how currently Employers get a tax break, then in the following paragraph he discusses how the Citizen will get the tax credit directly. I may have interpreted it wrong; although I don't believe so. But for sakes of argument if it makes you happy I'll retract it.
Quote:
Actually, I do not know which of these plans I would favor, and until we know more details and what they would cost, we won't be able to compare them. I agree that I do not want socialized medicine, but fortunately nothing in either of these plans looks anything like socialized medicine. Not even close. McCain provides a subsidy to anyone who wants to buy their own healthcare inusrance. Obama does the same for those who meet certain income requirements. And Obama creates a national healthcare insurance plan for those who want it, with guaranteed eligibility and portability. Neither one is forcing anyone into a single-payer system or requiring that you buy into a particular plan. So if your main concern is that you don't want to see socailized healthcare, then it looks like you should have no worries.
Honestly I wish both of these guys would stop looking at trying to make new systems and just fix the current one.
If you look at the 20 year stats it's really not THAT bad; it does indicate a problem that probably should've been addressed about 10 years ago though. There's been a 6% rise of Confirmed Americans without insurance.. bringing the total to 20.2% uninsured. There's be a confirmed decline in Americans with Employer based insurance, down 11% from 1987, bringing the total of Americans to 59%.
I think our current system can be fixed. There's just a problem that needs to be addressed. I don't feel there's a need on either party's behalf to rehash/redesign what's already in place.
Again; simply looking at it from a Plan to Plan standpoint.. based on what I forsee happening in both plans. I feel the impact of McCain's plan would be less detrimental than Obama's. I would rather people maintain their jobs, be able to feed their families as opposed to risk becoming unemployed. This is my opinion though and I'm entitled to it. It is neither right or wrong.
All I've wanted is for people to TRUELY discuss the plan and I feel that we are just now REALLY getting into it with the addition of your Post.
BTW; we're in an Obama thread but all you did was discuss McCain. Can we disuss Obama's plan instead? You can address McCain issues in the McCain thread, please. :jointsmile:
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Daihashi, I was not faulting you for stating your opinion about where the money was going to come from for these two plans. Your opinion is perfectly valid and welcome. What I was faulting was how you had treated the debate up to that point. You had said several times that you KNEW how Obama was going to pay for his plan, and then faulted the rest of us for not knowing, as if we were less informed than you were. At least that is how I interpreted your posts. But then, when you provided your explanation for where the money was to come from, you said it was just how you forsee it happening, an opinion, not something you knew for a fact. At least that is how I interpreted that post. If you had just stated your opinion earlier as an opinion, and then asked if other poeple had an opinion, it wouldn't have seemed as if you were saying you had information that the rest of us weren't smart enough or dilligent enough to find. My feeling was you were basically claiming to be more informed. Having an opinion about an important subject is great, but does not make you more informed. Anyway, let's say that is all behind us and chalk it up to a misunderstanding --- maybe I misunderstood what you were saying before and what you were asking us all to provide.
Movin' on...
I want to reply to the opinion you stated about the Obama plan:
Quote:
Honestly Obama's plan truely does offer more and I don't think I could ever argue against this. What I can argue is the impact this plan will have on the American people.
The super rich make up 0.7 of the population, and I'm going to make up a number here for the rich, a generous number I feel (meaning I'm probably overestimating)... we'll say 10% of the population are the rich. So now we have 10.7% of the population trying to support 89.3% of the rest of the US. Keep in mind that the majority of the members of Congress and most high US officials also fall into this 10.7%. Assuming that Congress for once decided to do what's best for the people and not what's best for themselves. The tax rate on this 10.7% would have to be signifigant in order to aid in support of the remaining 270 million (current population is about 304million, I subtracted 10%), we'll say they're getting 15% tax increase (another estimated number.. not fact). Let's factor in the corporations whom hadn't been previously taxed. They are going to want to protect their profits. Layoffs are the easiest way to reduce cost in order to keep profits up. Through Layoffs the corporations free up the cost it would take to pay that person, in addition they will not be penalized in taxes for that 1 person since they are no longer with the company.
Anyway you slice it or dice it it's a win/win situation for the corporations. Directly leading to an increase in Job unemployment. At this point you're exchanging one problem for another. This also directly effects the economy. If people don't have money to spend then they can't buy goods, which means companies don't make money.. and I think you can see how this cycle would just keep repeating itself in a downward spiral.
I think the flaw in what you are stating here is the assumption that a small percentage of people will be buying healthcare for the whole country. Your example is that 10.7 percent of the population would have to buy healthcare for the remaining 89.3 percent. I know you say the numbers are only your own estimates for sake of example, so I will not fault the exact numbers. But the idea is wrong. Obama's plan does not propose that we have EVERYONE in a national plan paid for through taxes. Right now a large percentage of people already have health care provided through their employers (60% maybe?). So those people would not need any tax money to continue their coverage the way they already are. There are a percentage of people who have jobs with employers who do not provide coverage. Those companies would face a payroll tax that you mentioned. Those employees would be able to buy the national plan, presumably at least partially paid for by the payroll taxes you mentioned --- so possibly no new income tax on "the rich" to provide that. And then there are a percentage of people who could afford to buy their own plan if they met eligibility requirements, but they have pre-existing conditions so the cost is exhorbitant. Obama's plan eliminates eligibility requirements, so those people would be able to buy their own plan --- no new taxes to support them. And then there is the remaining people who have no inusrance and who cannot pay for it themselves, even with no eligibility requirements. Had you said something like 20% are confirmed uninsured? So the people who meet the income requirements for subsidised healthcare would presumabley be some percentage of that 20%. I think if we all pull together, the remaining 80% could probably afford to subsidise health insurance for some portion of the 20% uninsured without ruining the lives of the "rich" and the "super rich," especially since were are probably already paying for much of it anyway in other forms.
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonrider
I want to reply to the opinion you stated about the Obama plan:
I think the flaw in what you are stating here is the assumption that a small percentage of people will be buying healthcare for the whole country. Your example is that 10.7 percent of the population would have to buy healthcare for the remaining 89.3 percent. I know you say the numbers are only your own estimates for sake of example, so I will not fault the exact numbers. But the idea is wrong. Obama's plan does not propose that we have EVERYONE in a national plan paid for through taxes. Right now a large percentage of people already have health care provided through their employers (60% maybe?). So those people would not need any tax money to continue their coverage the way they already are. There are a percentage of people who have jobs with employers who do not provide coverage. Those companies would face a payroll tax that you mentioned. Those employees would be able to buy the national plan, presumably at least partially paid for by the payroll taxes you mentioned --- so possibly no new income tax on "the rich" to provide that. And then there are a percentage of people who could afford to buy their own plan if they met eligibility requirements, but they have pre-existing conditions so the cost is exhorbitant. Obama's plan eliminates eligibility requirements, so those people would be able to buy their own plan --- no new taxes to support them. And then there is the remaining people who have no inusrance and who cannot pay for it themselves, even with no eligibility requirements. Had you said something like 20% are confirmed uninsured? So the people who meet the income requirements for subsidised healthcare would presumabley be some percentage of that 20%. I think if we all pull together, the remaining 80% could probably afford to subsidise health insurance for some portion of the 20% uninsured without ruining the lives of the "rich" and the "super rich," especially since were are probably already paying for much of it anyway in other forms.
You know I actually would not mind this plan and paying the increased taxes if he plans to eliminate medicaid, medicare and other government forms of government provided healthcare. The question is whether Obama would eliminate these programs or do what any other politician would probably do and move these funds to other programs instead of giving it back to the citizens. Which by judging by some of the wording it appears that this will not be the case.
Naturally there are going to be businesses that are not considered small business but also are not a large corporation. These companies will again; have to pay more than they were previously paying and it will result in lay offs. Actually I can't say it will; but in my opinion it will most likely lead to lay offs.
I'm sure you already have but look back on Bigweed's post where he posted the proposed information from Barack Obama's plan.
He plans to give healthcare to everyone.. mandatory requirement to all children (which I am stoked about but this costs alot of money), Sounds like he plans to overlap stateplans, which if you pay state taxes it means that you'll probably end up being pseudo double taxed for the same benefits, reimburse employer healthplans for catastrophic costs incurred, fight aids world wide, etc etc.. and alot of these practices are already in place so some of it is not anything new.
Other parts of it I don't see where he's going to feasibly get the money for it unless it's through heavy taxation. In which case if you're saying Employer based healthcare will remain then it seems as though you're punishing the majority for a minority. People like me will never be able to participate in this program so now I'm partly paying for my own healthcare.. the medicaid/medicare program is still going on, and now I'm getting taxed even more for this new healthcare program.
There are some nice things about his plan and I can't take that away from him.
My whole problem with this is that I don't see this working fiscally, and I still seeing this having a detrimental impact on Americans if it is passed. It just doesn't seem feasible to me. Whether you are getting it from the entire US population or from the Rich/corporations. Either way I don't see being able to generate the amount of revenue needed to give health care to the confirmed 20% of uninsured.. and the remaining 21% unaccounted for.
Lastly I'd like to note that his universal healthcare program isn't so universal at all. :(
Thanks for the post. This is what I wanted. Through discussion like this I feel we can broaden each others point of views. You've already helped me see things I did not see before. My stance still remains though. Really my stance remains on both candidates should simply fix the current system instead of designing a new one.
Do You Think Barack Obama Represents ??Change??
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Thanks for the post. This is what I wanted. Through discussion like this I feel we can broaden each others point of views. You've already helped me see things I did not see before. My stance still remains though. Really my stance remains on both candidates should simply fix the current system instead of designing a new one.
Absolutely. I've learned a lot on this thread, especially from the posts from BigWeed on the details of Obama's plan, your post on McCain's speech on the McCain thread, everyone's different opinions, and thinking it through for myself. I didn't really feel like I knew much about healthcare policy at the begining, but I know a lot more now.
