wtf happened before the big bang?

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Originally Posted by natureisawesome

cannabis4for20 said:



It does indeed answer with facts. The question you asked was about who created God or where did God comes from. The article directly answers that from a biblical perspective. If God exists, how would you expect someone to show you eternity??? Should I just send it to you in a box or something?

The article pointed out that everything that has a beginning has a cause. The universe had a beginning and therefore must have had a first cause. God does not need a cause because he never had a beginning. He's been forever and ever.

The article also uses other scientific facts to show that the universe cannot expand forever, that according to the laws of thermodynamics the universe cannot continue forever it will slow down to a dead stop, even in an oscillating universe "Each one of the hypothetical cycles would exhaust more and more usable energy. This means every cycle would be larger and longer than the previous one, so looking back in time there would be smaller and smaller cycles. So the multicycle model could have an infinite future, but can only have a finite past."

It points out that "there are many lines of evidence showing that there is far too little mass for gravity to stop expansion and allow cycling in the first place" and that "the universe still has only about half the mass needed for re-contraction"


Also, very importantly it points out "that Finally, no known mechanism would allow a bounce back after a hypothetical â??big crunchâ??.7 As the late Professor Beatrice Tinsley of Yale explained, even though the mathematics says that the universe oscillates, â??There is no known physical mechanism to reverse a catastrophic big crunch.â?? Off the paper and into the real world of physics, those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, and thatâ??s the end.8"


It points out several other things as well. I guess it's easy for you to blow off the evidence I've provided when the material is off site.

Listen, according to the laws of the universe, according to every scientific experiment ever conducted by a human being, every effect has a cause. But that only applies in the physical universe. God is outside of time. He created time. He's beyond our full comprehension. People are saying how it's all too much for us to grasp. Well there it is. God is too much for us too grasp. But at the same time in his wisdom and his all mighty power he gave us a comprehension of God.



no. because ultimately the cause of the big bang would have a previous cause and it would in the end have to have an original cause. That's just the natural laws that exist. If we had no understanding of natural laws then that might be a consideration. But according to all of the scientific evidence ever recorded, every cause has an effect.

And I would really like someone to answer the quote about the universe not being a banana. Particularly this statement:

This universe canâ??t have any properties to explain its preferential coming into existence, because it wouldnâ??t have any properties until it actually came into existence."

Think of the order in the universe. All the natural laws that hold things together and keep everything from being absolutel chaos. I think we take that for granted. If there is no God keeping order in the heavens and the universe just happened, then there is no reason to believe that the coming to be of the universe is any more to be expected than the big bang producing a gallon of ice cream.

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Right there!!! I understand what the bible says, but all the bible says is that god always was, and he magically doesn't apply to every other thing in existence. So what evidence is there to make me believe that God always was and created this universe as opposed to matter always being here, we just might only know the big bang as the beginning and before that everything in the universe was just sitting in space and then after the big bang life just came to be, because there just always was a potential for life to come into existence, but it didn't because it had nowhere to go. Of course that's illogical, but that same argument can be applied to god just always existing.

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Originally Posted by natureisawesome

make it legal said:

QUOTE]I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me. Why would he do that? What about allllllll the other planets he created? He doesn't care about them or the life they may support? Why go through the trouble of creating EVERYTHING if he's not going to use it?

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I think he is using it. To impress us mostly, and show us how powerful and awesome he is. Have you ever camped out under the stars on a really clear night, and it ll just feels so huge, and you sit back and think about how your staring into the universe on a giant rock floating and spinning through space at thousands of miles an hour. Pretty powerful.

Also the angels have a lot better view than we do, and they worship him too.

And not to mention that God is a master artist.




Not everything is meant to be taken literally. But generally, if it says plainly "such and such happened" yes I believe it. Prophecy though, for example, has much symbolism.



There is nothing, absolutely nothing in God's word that has been proven wrong. I've read through the Word and I can't remember it ever saying the earth is the center of the universe, or that the earth is flat. Those errors were made by men, not God's word.

But it turns out we are actually pretty close to the center of the universe as I pointed out before.



Eh, I don't think so. Anything with the words "templar" tends to make me wary. Maybe I'll check out the description.



To put it bluntly, because everything fits, and I will not deny the Truth.

Here's one last food of thought for you. I hear the same objection to Christianity and religion over and over. Among these are " religion is just a form of mind/people control" and "religion hurts more people than it helps" and "religions causes so many wars".

How is it that so many people are so quick to judge the religion by the actions of wicked people? Yes, I believe Christianity has been used a form of mind/people control, and I believe that evil people in high places in religion have used it for selfish and evil purposes. I believe that many (almost all actually) practicing Christians and many many other followers of other religions have done very much harm and gotten into lots of wars.

BUt how does this compare with what Jesus and the bible teach?

Didn't Jesus say that most people were going to hell and would act wickedly? yes he did.
Didn't he say that there would be many would call them selves Christian but they really weren't? Yes he did.
And do the actions of almost all Christians fit with the rightousness taught in scripture? No way, they're corrupt, lost in darkness.

But the truth is that so many people refuse to recognise this because to do that would be to recognise God's righteousness, and people don't want to see that. My main point is, don't blame Christianty for what a lot of evil so called Christians did.

I think you also mentioned something about meteors bringing life from outer space.

For rocks to travel from another planet to earth carrying life, or vice versa, the rocks would have to be ejected with the force of a meteor impact, travel for extended periods of time, and be subjected to cosmic radiation. These factors make it highly unlikely that a life form could make the trip. It is remotely possible that there may be life present on nearby planets if the life was â??seededâ?� from earth. The SETI project, which listens for intelligent signals from outer space, and the recent Mars missions have failed to introduce any evidence. Astrobiology remains a science with no data to support it.

In any case, even if this proved to be remotely possible, think about something else. Even if life came from a meteor, it would have had to evolve on another planet first. So you're really right back at the drawing board.

What are lolcats?[/QUOTE]

Well, the whole idea of the life coming to earth is based of the fact that there are some forms of bacteria and things like that which can survive very extreme conditions.

If God is such a powerful and incredible being, why would he need to create people just to be impressed be him? Is God really that insecure?

If he created everything, then why would there be so much scientific proof of things the contradict the bible. We know that the universe is older than the Bible says. (I'm not sure how old it says it is but from the little big of genesis that I read it sounds like a lot less than 13 billion years old). If I am correct, it sounds like in the Bible that the first two people were around pretty quickly after the universe was created. We know that there was a very long time that there were no people on earth. In fact, if the timespan of the earth were reduced to one minute, then humans would have only been around for 1/10 of a second.

About the earth being close to the center of the universe, that can't be, seeing as there is no center.

I would say personally, that if I did believe in God, I would be more of a dieist (the idea that God is a sort of "clock maker"). I think that if God really loved everybody and controlled everything, he wouldn't make such horrible things happen. It makes more sense that he could have just triggered the Big Bang and let the Universe run itself out.

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Originally Posted by natureisawesome

No evidence for creation whatsoever???

Why don't you go look in the mirror.

Do you just want me to start listing all the evidence, because that might take me the rest of my life.

We both have the same evidence, but we have different interpretations of that evidence because of two different worldviews. The Bible says that faith in God is foolishness to man. It says the faith of the gospel is foolishness to the gentiles. Man will believe in what his own crooked mind has devised, but he will hardly consider believing in God. Which is hypocricy, because even evolution requires belief! So as I've pointed out before, If you say I don't have any evidence because it's not all conclusive, well then right back at you! But the evidence we do have fits with creation, and just about everything your teachers taught you about evolution in high school was rejected by leading evolutionists themselves years and years and years ago. But they keep teaching it to your children (just like in communist countries, isn't that interesting), because they don't have anything else to stand on! That's why many leading evolutionists have rejected long periods for evolution and now are devising crackpot theories of spontaneous evolution. It couldn't have taken millions of years, because the evidence doesn't show that, so It must have happened real quick. And all this was way back in the eighties, and if you don't know about this, then go do some studying before anyone call me ignorant.

Here is a short thing to say, but in real application it is HUGE. All dna in living species is absolute evidence creation of God, because the laws of the universe, specifically the laws of thermodynamics, would not and do not allow organisms to form from basic elements. There are several other laws that would help to keep this from happening, and even though it's already been shown to be absolutely totally statistically impossible over 20 years ago, teachers and professors still preach that garbage like it's a fact over and over, because if people really started having some skepticism, then evolution would be exposed as the simple minded corrupt fantasy it really is. Not only would the laws of nature not allow evolution to happen, but according to evolution, changes that happen to dna are random, and therefore cannot create the order neccessary to survive and develop into intracate organisms and creatures fit to survive and flourish. And in reality there is no mechanism in nature that causes an organism to "adapt" to stimuli in nature. There just isn't, and even darwin himself criticized this preposterous idea. If most people knew what darwin hypothesised to cause macroevolution he would never again be seen as leading figure. He would be seen as the fool he really was.

Aside from the things I pointed out earlier as things that fit with a creationist model, there are many other evidences.

Man and woman being alive at the same time. This is probably one of, if not the biggest attacks to evolution and one of the greatest evidences of God. To say man evolved is one thing, but then woman evolved too, in the same time period with the capability to magically fit mans ingredibly complex sex organs and reproduce? And all this had to happen in short enough time before they died. Man and woman fit well together, remarkably I might add, and evolutionists are dead silent on this issue. You can say man took millions of years to evolve, but all along that time he had to have been able to reproduce, but this would in evolutionary theory, take millions and millions of years. But it's all silly, and even man evolving alone is almost as silly. Perhaps someone might say that they developed sex organs earlier on hen they were simpler organisms. Oh really?? Well, beside the fact that that still totally couldn't have happened because even simple organisms reproduction systems are incredibly complex, it only poses a slightly smaller challange than before, and even if it did happen, when the creatures evolved into higher species, both sexes would have had to evolve higher in conjunction in every generation.

I'm going to stop right there because I want to point out something very important. There is a lot of material evidence that fits with creation. But something I believe just as or more important is another kind of evidence. This is evidence that's not just numbers or rocks or bones. The bible says that:

" the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse "

What does this mean in practical application? It means that God created everything through his divine inspiration, that through his creation he's revealed his nature. But these things simply cannot be anylized in test tubes or carbon dated because these things are ETERNAL. The order that he's created and his creation show his love. And you can see it everywhere from the relationship a man has to a wife, father to son, mother to daughter. Think of the natural balance in the relationship between woman and man. Think of the conscience we have within ourselves, which show a reflection of God's nature, and reveal our need for a relationship with him. And I could go on. Honestly though, it's so hard to talk about those things, because it's so mysterious. But If you look at the order of the heavens and earth, how the grass grows for us to walk on, and the trees give food for us to eat, and in the sky the clouds float above us, and beyond the stars fill the universe. When I consider the order and beauty, and it all just fits so well, and I recognise God's workmanship, albeit sealed up in a mystery.

I suggest you go check out some articles on this website:

Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics

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your argument for all my arguments being able to prove creationism, through the belief of evolution is a fickle argument in that it works both ways.

you use the idea of consciousness and of the love between a man and a women as proof of gods creation. yet you apply 'modern day thinking' to the entire course of the human species. we haven't always been consious beings, in that ultimately it is likely that our brains evolved to the idea we posses as consousness after our bodies became the tools they are.

it is widely believed that the use of cooked meat help us to advance in this feild and it is proved the cooking of meat provides vital nutrients to feed the brain and its development.

you say there is no proof of evolutionary adaptation to its surroundings, but this is illogical. take for example the bear. polar and grizley. both genetically almost identical yet evolutionary different to suit their natural surroundings. the same with artic cats and jungle cats of the same classification yet both adapted. even more prevelant are the insects which live in caves deep within the earth. there is a whole evolutionary chain of insects and invertibrates that have learnt to live without sunlight and are adapted too. there is diversity within all the animal species for their habitat. dawrin wasn't a sceptic of his own research at all. it is likely that the source you read and took this from was part of the properganda surrounding his work due to people like yourself.

it has already been proven that the enviroment was right to create the nessecary acids and required chemicals and subsequent reactions to create life. it is proven.

spontaneous evolution is not as far fetched as it seems, but it is important to keep it in perspective. in that our dna and rna mutates all the time and for 1000 mutant offspring that may be spawned and die before a month, there are those that are benefited by their mutations and survive to go and repopulate.

you say that man and women being alive together at the same time is one of the biggest proofs of creationism, yet in reality it is the biggest argument for evolution. if man where asexual it would have died soon. men and women exist so that dna is shared and evolution can take place. in that each offspring is the sum of two halves. therefore with only the fittest from each sex surviving the offspring is stronger. much in the same way we have breed cattle for centuries, to make them bigger beeifer and inherently inbread and stupid.

if you think about the penis and the vagina they are replicated through out the hole of nature. from plants to cattle. it is a successgul delivery method of mixing the sperm and egg. and it is the most effective in mamals, ultimately why we evolved to our status above the food chain. animals with other methods, such as fish, insects, birds didnt evolve as greately as their reproduction methods are not as advanced or sucessful as ours.

and through man and woman you apply the human logic of love, yet this is an advanced status of thinking brought about by our rising above the food chain and stepping out of physical evolution. do you think early cave man fell in love or just spread his oats because he was the strongest and the desire to reproduce is somehting buried deep in our genetic code.

the trouble is the bible is at worst 2000 years old, granted the dead sea scrolls are alod older but the modern version you read from are around that age. but wait, i just want to be clear, get your copy, is it the king james version ?? so thats the one revised in 1611. which is my point. the bible and the logic you work from is as all religons are wrote from man, so unherenantly biased.

they negate the spiritual side of the human species, because and this may shock you i do believe in a god. just i don't believe in the bullshit around it. the bible is a collection of stories, born of a time to comfort, compell and help the masses understand the world. but what is missed is the point. love peace and respect. that is the true nature of god.

the idea god created is flawed. creationism is unlikely. we didnt just appear. we just didnt. i would rather believe aliens tampered with our frontal lobe than we just apperaed, becuase if we are created through gods divine inspiration and we are all made in the image of god, then he made us fundementally flawed. he is a rapist, a murdered, a biggot, he is gay, he is bisexual, he is a pedophile, he is lost, he hurts, he doesnt believe in himself, he doesnt offer eternal forgivness and he creates wars.

because if he created us, if he did, why did he make the flaw in us to be evil, why even give us that choice. if he is all knowing, if he is all seeing then he knew exactly what would happen, he knew it would take us milenia to understand him, he knew we would kill the non believers and he knew that his word would be split and manipulated into many different sects, who preach and wage wars in his name.

becuase if we are god, then god works on human logic and therefore is flawed by all the above points.

its not right, god is energy, god is light, god is the life we have for a short time. nothing before nothing after.

but god is such a human projection, this is the way of the universe, this is the universe.

it is not wrong to have faith and aploud you for it, we live in times of confusion, anger, division and apathy. this is dangerous, but more dangerous that all that is blind faith.

my best wishes to you

s s s s s snowblind

This is one of the best threads I've ever read!

Also is the reason I joined. I look forward to discussing various topics with fellow members.

Looks as if we have some educated people amongst us!

I haven't read enough to post my opinion on this topic but there is no way we are alone in the universe. As to what happened before the big bang??? No idea yet. Give me a few days....I'll figure it out and get back to you:D

All the best and peace..

it's so hard to picture nothing... because before the big bang, it's very possible that there WAS nothing....

what if there wasn't a universe until something came along that required a habitat... perhaps it never was, until it was needed. AH!

can you picture nothing?

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Originally Posted by vej33

can you picture nothing?

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:wtf:

ps, excellent writing Snowblind. I couldn't agree more.

wikdi does this mean that i win, that some kind of 48 hrs knock out

schweet

all hail me

i am your new god

snowblind

there had to have been something before the big bang because if there was nothing before the big bang then the big bang would not have happened.

you know what im sayin' ??

I'm a human, and I prefer to think of myself as an evolved human. We as humans should have evolved throughout time. We used to not believe in God until the Romans invented it (Christianity) as a tool to oppress people and kill the ones who didn't agree. I don't believe anything from the Bible as to me it's fiction. I believe in evolution, and I also believe there are things that can not be explained. I'm not saying there isn't some "God", I just do not believe in the personification of the Christian God. I've tried to answer these questions myself, but finally gave up and am just thankful that cannabis is here as well.