Oh Fuck
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Oh Fuck
I don't know any liberals who are upset about what's happening in Iraq. I don't know anyone who didn't think that after Saddam's removal things wouldn't be better. It only makes sense that if you topple a brutal dictator, that his constituents will be better off.Quote:
Originally Posted by amsterdam
Our problem stems from the fact that we were LIED TO in order to drum up support for the war. The whole idea behind WMDs, Iraq being a threat to America, Cheney's and Rumsfeld's subtle intimations that Saddam had something to do with 9/11, that's why we're pissed off. All of those turned out to be false. And we, as liberals, felt that additional diplomatic measures needed to be taken, not only with Iraq itself, but with the world in general, before we launched into a pre-emptive war.
We're pissed off because as the reasoning for war changed, as it became more about "bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people," we never once turned our eyes to the other humanitarian atrocities taking place around the globle. Where are we in Africa? South America? Eastern Europe?
We're pissed off because that massive part of our foreign policy is not uniform, as foreing policy absolutely has to be. Not only is it inconsistent, it's dangerous. Who are we now to influence other countries not to participate in pre-emptive war since we've done it ourselves? Hypothetically speaking, doesn't our new stance give Canada and Mexico every right to invade us if they decide to manufacture reasons why we're a threat to them, as we did with Iraq?
We're pissed off because while W was off playin' in the sand, North Korea's practically been waving their arms, saying, "Look at us; we've got nukes!" So if we're really out to protect ourselves, why are we not invading North Korea? And if we're really humanitarians, why are we not freeing the millions of North Koreans who are starving or in forced labor camps and who have no freedom whatsoever?
I'll even give Republicans a money reason: Where's all that Iraqi oil money that was supposed to pay for their reconstruction by now? Why are we still footing the bill?
Here's one for you fiscal conservatives out there: Why, if we have a huge deficit and are still having to pay for operations and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan, is W still handing out massive tax cuts? How does that balance?
Bottom line, we were lied to by the highest level of our government and those lies didn't even make sense. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz all knew that if it was only about "freedom and democracy," Americans by in large would never, ever go for it.
Iraq has been a clusterfuck from start to finish. It doesn't matter how free they are now or how free they will continue to be, that will never change. And the 1,600 U.S. soldiers who died for it will never come back.
Well said Bhall, 9/11 was a scapegoat to get into Iraq. Because Iraq had oil. And Oil=Money the building block of America.
ill answer for the republicans out there "ITS A LIBERAL CONSPIRACY"!, LMAO!
Radio active brains anyone? Hahahahahahaha.
Wow, bhall2k, you make the point i have been trying to make along! All the issues we argue about are null and void compared to suffering in Africa, South America, and southeast Asia!Quote:
Originally Posted by bhallg2k
However, I still (of course) disagree with you on the whole Iraq war thing...
Sure, Bush lied to the American people about Iraq. Ya know what? I'm cool with that! In his shoes I would have done the same, although i would have sent troops to many many more locations than just Iraq. I would have sent troops to sudan to stop the genocide of thousands, for one thing...
Tell me this.... I am sure you agree with me, bhall2k, that the American people are really quite ignorant. So if you had to lie to them in order to stop a ruthless dictator from opressing millions, and at the same increase your country's prosperity, that would be perfectly acceptable in my own mind. Thats what this war is about, by the way, the prosperity of not only the US but the entire industrialized world. A stable middle east is of great interest to all petrolium-consuming countries.
Agreed, XTC, although there is so much more to it than that! We went into Afghanistan b/c of 9/11! Remeber Afghanistan? The other country we invaded? Thats where Osama is supposedly holed up. That or Pakistan, our supposed "ally" in the war on terror. Oil is one of, but not the ONLY reason we went ot Iraq.... you have realize we have eased the suffering of that polulation with our war. Now, children aren't abducted and tortured to death! Kurds are no longer slaughtered! The Iraqui people now have no fear of death except for that of the extremist who would like to see them opressed again!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by XTC
Think of Operation Iraqui Freedom as the Iraqui's war of independence, only with help from the world superpower.
I wouldn't say that the American people are ignorant.
Ok, maybe I would to an extent. For whatever reason, most of us are too easily distracted by the "sexier" stories in media, and totally in the dark about the more important matters. Even things such as gay marriage and child kidnappings (which I admit is terribly, terribly sad) aren't really all that important to our collective good. But if you take Americans one by one and show them the truth, they'll usually respond accordingly.
Would I lie, as president, in order to garner favorable public opinion for starting a war? Not in a million years. Public trust in our government is probably the most important thing in the country. Especially now when potentially our lives depend on it.
The willingness of some to forgive W for lying truly amazes me. And usually those same people are the ones who were up in arms about Bill Clinton lying about a blowjob. I don't get that at all. Last time I checked, 1,600 soliders weren't dead because Willie blew his load on a government clerk's dress.
Saddam being gone is a good thing, no one denies that or ever has. The problem is that the end doesn't justify the means, especially in this case as there is no real increase in positives in the region. I'm not saying it won't work out in the long run. But as of now, oil prices are near all-time highs, Iran is trying to obtain a nuclear weapon out of fear of US invasion and Israel has continued to expand settlements into Gaza, bouyed by the US presence. What's good about that?
We would not be there if our leaders had told the truth about their intentions and had really thought about and planned for the cost, in terms of money, lives and loss of credibility. The latter is really sad as those are HUGELY important things. Hell, we don't even have an exit strategy. We're praying for the Iraqi government to kick us out so we can have an excuse to leave.
Howdy,to all the liberals in this thread and those who are in denial about their liberalism,
To begin with,liberals and lefties,for the most part,don't understand a dang thing about the military or strategic and tactical planning. Y'all are ignoring the facts,like the fact,that we had been under near constant attack from saddam,in the Northern and Southern,no-fly zones..that alone..is justification for attacking saddam and sons.
As for North Korea,that's a special and different situation,and needs to be handled differently,America was attacked on 9/11,in case ya forgot,by muslim jihadists,so we went after a very likely source of the problem,Iraq,whose leader,has stated his intention to attack America,again and again..as well as Israel. The UN security council,approved the use of force,in order to git saddam to comply with existing UN resolutions.
I reckon,that most liberals would dance for joy,if Israel was destroyed and all Jews slaughtered..but it ain't gonna happen..so don't git yer hopes up. Eventually,saddam would have aquired a nuke or 2,and relying on his fancy,German built,NBC bunker,would have used the nukes against Israel and rode out the storm of Israel's response,while sacrificing millions of his own citizens. Make no mistake--Israel,will defend it's self,with every weapon in it's arsenal,if the arabs attack them again..it behooves us,to rid the middle-east of it's violent leaders and muslim jihadists.
One of my cousin's,is currently deployed in South Korea,and I wish I could talk to him about how things are there,but he's in a Special Forces unit and his com's are restricted. If North Korea decides to roll a million men towards South Korea,it will probably require the use of tactical nukes,to stop the advance,or MOAB's or both.
Have a good one...
You Seize to amaze me with your ignorance! GW doesnt know the first thing about international warfare, just like im sure alot of republicans dont either. You make false accusations that you obviously dont know the first thing about. What gave you the idea that democrats dont know anything about "tactical warfare"? Because were not for falsely blowing up some countries? C'mon now, think before you speak, im sure itll help you out, lol. And as for 'Isreal being destroyed and all the Jews being slaughtered', thats some shit, I thought Christians were the ones that didnt like Jews? As a matter of fact, i have sympathy for jews because of all the shit they get because of you christians, so once again, think before you speak! If America didnt have nukes, we would be fucked, because everybody in the world knows that our military blows without WMD's, if we got in a ground battle with China, we would be annhialated, but im sure your ignorant ass thinks America is invincible in all categories of war, which WE ARENT! Russia has better weapons, jets, tanks, and missiles, so get a clue, America cant go and fight everybody! Its alrite to 'you people' when a president lies, and sacrifices american lives for false pretences, but then you whine and moan when a democrat gets a blow job and lies about it, Are you jealous? I'm glad Saddam Hussein was captured, im sure that saved thousands of Iraqi lives, but now America has a huge burden to finish this war, which could possible take a decade!Quote:
Originally Posted by Torog