They may be checking their own arguments, but it is just like you said, the logical consistency is already set in your mind if you have faith.
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They may be checking their own arguments, but it is just like you said, the logical consistency is already set in your mind if you have faith.
Aaaaaaaaaah feck! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey
Dude, I'm sorry that was me, I cocked it up. It was supposed to be good rep, I didn't realise. Must have clicked the wrong option.
I'll try to contact a mod and see if I can get it rectified. :thumbsup:
Welcome to the forum...
Gandalf, I asked the mods and they can't do naff all abaaht it! Sorry, I'll plus rep you 2 times as soon as the system'll let me to balance things out, cool? :thumbs up:
ribbit
lol, no worries staurm you didn't have to go to all that trouble (appreciated though).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
Again, I don't doubt the sincerity of your belief that you don't have knowledge of God. But nonetheless, God's point of view (according the the Scriptures) is that you have no excuse because he has made what may be known about Him plain for all to see. That doesn't mean he has appeared to everyone's physical eyes, but He claims that, spiritually, we have all seen God and have all rejected Him.
Is that physically falsifyable? No it is not. But my point is that, if true, then it justifies God's punishisment of those who continue to rebel against and reject Him as Creator.
I understand that your viewpoint is that you have not seen God spiritually and that parts of His word make no sense logically to you. And yes, I can see how that is disheartening. My point simply is that, if God is the Creator... then He is probably right and you are probably wrong. Well, I take that back. If he is the creator of the very spiritual eyes you say you haven't seen him with, and of the very logic you say is not making sense... then He is *definitely* right and you are definitely wrong. Again though... I'm not saying your viewpoint doesn't matter. I'm saying *if* God exists and His word is true, then you're opinion of His justice is not what his justice relies on to be just.
This is just my opinion, but I think one of the reasons God may not give us the "exact physical proof" we sometimes may ask for is because we would be held to a higher standard for our rejection of God given that proof. I think in the end there will be a lot of people thankful that God didn't give them the proof they asked for when they asked for it, because they now realize they would've continued rejecting Him. I know there have been times I have been so addicted to sin and had particular sins so engraved in my psyche (be it anger, lust, etc.) that even if I had proof of God I still would have hard times trying to avoid that which I knew was sin.
That is just my opinion. However, I do know this... God does have reasons for everything He does. If He does not answer someone's prayer for Him to physically show Himself to that person He does so with good reason.
You don't deserve punishment for having a sceptical mind. According the Scriptures we all deserve punishment for sinning... for spiritually rejecting God and rebelling against His ways. If your sceptical mind prevents you from spiritually re-uniting with God and accepting His ways, then that is what it does. But that sceptical mind is not what "earned" us our punishment.
Also, I wouldn't say, "there's no actual middle ground, just torment and torture for those who do not accept his word as 100%." Salvation, according to the Bible, is not had by "accepting his word as 100%." It is had by trusting Christ and believing in His sacrifice for you... which essentially restores your relationship with God. Then it is lived out in your thankful obedience to what you know of his commands. If you don't think all of his commands in the Scripture are actually his commands, then I'm not sure He would hold you accountable for that. However, I would tread carefully in rejecting particular Scripture verses... since I think He would expect you to have good reasons for rejecting any of them, and to have done due diligence in examining if your reasons were valid.
If I may ask, what rules seem "very unfair" to you? There are a lot of Christians who put unnecessary burdons on people, and perhaps that has turned you away from Christianity. For instance, many say Christians should not use cannabis... but that isn't anywhere in the Bible. In fact, many say Christians shouldn't drink... and the exact opposite of that is in the Bible (Christ made wine and even drank it according to the Scriptures). Premarital sex is another big turnoff for most people, but I'm not sure that it is wrong in all cases (especially if commitment and the goal of trying to find a fit for eventual marriage are involved, instead of treating life like it is one big orgy). I've come to these conclusions after years of studying the Bible.
To me, God's rules seem very fair and have benefited the quality of my life a great deal. I can understand how some people ("swingers", people who enjoy orgies, homosexuals, etc. come to mind) would have a very hard time with some of God's rules since those people "aren't hurting anyone else", etc. But for the majority of people, I honestly don't see what the problem is with God's rules. Maybe it is because I've been following them a long time, but to me, they seem not only fair, but I'm so grateful for them because they have bettered my life in such wonderful ways.
I do know that the least fun part of being a Christian is having to tell a homosexual or someone like that that the Bible teaches that the practice is sin (if they ask me). However, I can at least understand that what God is asking that person to do at least *seems* natural to me (whether it seems natural to them or not).
But for the most part, almost the entirety of God's commandments have been very, very helpful to me. And the peace He has given me has been so acute. With that coupled with what I see as historical evidence for the Scriptures and the Ressurection, I just can't come up with a good reason to reject His Word.
I don't agree that, "Faith is absolute devotion to ideas that don't have any evidence for them," (as you said). Faith, bibilcally, is holding a belief so strongly that you are willing to hold it central to how you live your life. And you're allowed, in fact your're *encouraged*, to gather and examine evidence to strengthen your faith. I beleive Peter, in the Scriptures, asked people to go talk to those who claimed to have seen the Christ ressurected so they could judge their story for themselves. So I have no problem examining historical evidence that supports or harms my faith. In fact, I've only been encouraged to do that by Christian teachers, and the Bible itself. And it has only strengthened my faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
I understand you've heard people of other faiths say the equivilent of, "If one starts practicing the teachings of [enter religion here] he will see the types of results it promises." That's why I would hold that experience I have had personally as the sole evidence for my faith... because that alone is not very strong evidence. I would just say that has encouraged my continued examination of Christianity, since that is one area in which it has held as true in my personal experience.
So my logic is not "circular" as you imply. I think it is wise, not "circular", for someone to examine if a particular set of religious principles have held true in the faith he practices. There are true principles that are a part of almost all religions. That is why I say that examining those principles should not be the sole basis for someone's faith. In my experience though, Christianity has the most truth, and Christ is in fact the way and the truth.
The signs you quoted Christ as refering to in the 1st century (healing the sick, et. al.) are signs he told his disciples they would see as they preached the gospel. And they are recorded in various Scriptures and pieces of history as having occured in the disciples view.
You seem to expect that you will also view those signs. I'm not sure that is going to be the case. He did not say that each and every sign would be practiced by each and every believer throughout time.
This is just my opinion, but I think one of the reasons God may not give us the "exact physical proof" we sometimes may ask for is because we would be held to a higher standard for our rejection of God given that proof. I think in the end there will be a lot of people thankful that God didn't give them the proof they asked for when they asked for it, because they now realize they would've continued rejecting Him. I know there have been times I have been so addicted to sin and had particular sins so engraved in my psyche (be it anger, lust, etc.) that even if I had proof of God I still would have hard times trying to avoid that which I knew was sin.
That is just my opinion. However, I do know this... God does have reasons for everything He does. If He does not answer someone's prayer for Him to physically show Himself to that person He does so with good reason.
Hardcore Newbie and Oneironaut, I have enjoyed talking to you guyes thoroughly, however I'm going to bow out of this discussion at this point (and the Westboro thread, Oneironaut). I have been putting off studying for a bar exam by hanging out, reading, and posting on this board in addition to some other things.
I'm going to basically give up internet and TV for a month to prepare for the bar exam. So I probably won't be back in this forum for a while. Thanks for the discussion and God bless.
Procrastinator ;) Good luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by jsn9333
I won't say too much since you're not going to be around to discuss it, but I'll just say this.Quote:
Originally Posted by jsn9333
I'm not gay, I'm not a swinger, I'm not a drinker, but I question the very nature of such things being sin. I'm not someone who will hold dear a system that benefits myself, when I disagree with the rules of that system.
The reason I don't hold the Bible or it's words to be "true" is the basic fact that I believe I am a decent person who loves nearly everyone, yet I find myself disagreeing with the very nature of many sins.
I can't see these words being true, because they are so out of tune with my concept of love.
Again have a good one :)
Well, if you believe that then you must accept the fact of the holographic universe, and that all matter is just different wave manifestations in one connected energy field. ESP, mind over matter, walking through walls, would all be theoretically possible, once we learn how to manipulate this field.