UVb an experiment

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Originally Posted by smoke_and_fly

yet another reason to start outdoors i have always thought plants grown outdoors then switched to indoors are more potent to an extent this is obviously the science behind it
this site is by far the most informative website i have ever invested my time in
our members have infinate
knowledge of the herb

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High there smoke_and_fly,

It's a interesting concept to start outdoors then flower indoors. Opposite of what Weezard has been doing, when his girls are done he takes them outside and gives them a few hours of tanning in the mid day sun. Major advantage he has is living in Hawaii. I've been hoping someone would do the experiment Rusty had proposed, starting rooted clones under UVb to see the effects on it's use from the beginning. Maybe we could convince Weez to try starting outdoors then bringing them in.:D

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Originally Posted by Dutch Pimp

Quess who light bleached the fuck out of his two plants...3 weeks into 12/12?...:rolleyes:

any remedies?..besides moving further from the light?...I took the CMH out and switched to HPS? ...two other grows...the CMH never did that before?

I would post a pic...but,... I am ashamed....:stoned:..I screwed the pooch on this one...:D

Too Much UVb?

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Say it ain't so, bro.:(

You are not alone.
Switching to HPS should help but might cost another day.

Growth will resume in a few days either way.
Gonna be jus' fine:cool:

The Peroxide blonde tops?
I leave them on as ornamentation.:hippy:
I calls 'em da bimbo buds.:D

Aloha
Weeze

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Originally Posted by oldmac

Hey DP,

Sorry to hear that, bleaching the ho's make them look so cheap.;)

Not sure if it is excess UVb or more from the concentration of red being too close. I think Weezard managed to light bleach some girls under LED, very specific light wavelength's, just red and blue and he uses no UVb. So you can do that without UVb.

If it's not IR, I'm sure it's the blue.
Higher frequencies pack more energy.
My girls only bleached under the blue leds though some were closer to the reds.


Not sure there is much you can do, just hope for some new leaf growth and an improvement in appearence. And don't put that CMH so close next time, I think that's easy to do since I believe they run cooler than HPS.:thumbsup:

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Yup! even easier with leds 'cause there's less radiated heat.
Also worth knowing, that MJ stops growing at around 91K lux.
Here's another case where overkill will hurt you.
Just like water, and nutes;
"More than enough, is too much!" - me.

Keep yer toes warm.
Weeze

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Originally Posted by oldmac

High there smoke_and_fly,

It's a interesting concept to start outdoors then flower indoors. Opposite of what Weezard has been doing, when his girls are done he takes them outside and gives them a few hours of tanning in the mid day sun. Major advantage he has is living in Hawaii. I've been hoping someone would do the experiment Rusty had proposed, starting rooted clones under UVb to see the effects on it's use from the beginning. Maybe we could convince Weez to try starting outdoors then bringing them in.:D

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Would do.:)
But no can!:(

The other advantage to living Hawaii, is constant ~12 hour days.
Any long day strain started outdoors here goes autoflower.
Even on June 21st our nights are too long.

Course I could start some outdoors and supplement with 2 hours of light in the morning or evening.
If, I had a big enough bloom room.:(

That, and I'm convinced that UVb is more harmful than helpful in a vegging plant.
I like to leave the risky:weedpoke: to folks that can better afford the loss:D
How about it, 7th?! You game?

What I've settled on, is a LED veg. to half the height I want. Then in the sun with a UVa-b filter of polycarbonate to stretch, fatten-up buds and pile-on the trichs without frying them back off.

Then out in the full sun for that Coppertone tan.
Works a treat for "tailoring" of the high!:stoned:

Now have a "spice rack" of different "side effects"
Come try some.:thumbsup::jointsmile:

Aloha,
Weeze

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It's a interesting concept to start outdoors then flower indoors.

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Been many years since I tried that (usually precipitated by early winter or a compromised grow area). Bugs that were a minor annoyance outside sometimes became major infestations when their plant hosts were brought indoors, though. I remember that much...:jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by seventhchild

is this just to control heat/energy usage or is it needed for for the plants to respond properly to these wavelengths

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Yes the HID is very strong and I could not see justifying 300w of inc's that I couldn't tell were even on. I did not have privilege to reading the manual at that time. Once I was able to read the manual (witch was a few months before the link was posted in this tread) I quickly figured out why it's not worth running the inc's at the same time as the HPS was on...... Time factor manipulation..........It's not easy manipulating the HID's time factor when it's on. It's much easer manipulating the plants 24 hour time factor.

So let's explain some Time Factor stuff as I see it. THC is at it's highest production with a time factor of 1.6 to 1.8. If you look at table 4.1 in the manual you will see that the sun has a time factor of 1.7. Indoors with the Martian Method you can run an average time factor of aprox 1.8. Quite the trick if you ask me and lets not forget what 17 hours of 660/730 trichome pumping light will do.

HID has a time factor of 3.6. Not much THC being produced here. Although most people would beg to differ.. They just never smoked PAD weed before. LOL. Anyway back to the HID, in order to get the HID's time factor down to roughly 1.8 ish or hell even 2.0 when the light is on is beyond my reach. IMO the amount of clear inc's that would need to be used when the HID was on is not what I wanted. HID is strong all the way down to the floor and it's hard to manipulate it's time factor. Lucky for use the plant uses a 24 hour cycle so there is plenty of time to pick and chose when to manipulate the plants time factor.

The Martian Method uses the whole 24 hour day. If we are just talking about time factors here the Martian Method uses a 425/660nm spectrum (1/2 hour combined on then 425nm only for a 1/2 hour on) with a 2.1 time factor for 7 hours a day and then uses a PAD lighting cycle of 660/730nm (1/2 hour on of 660nm then 1/2 hour on of 730nm) with a 1.4 time factor 17 hours a day with a combined 24 hour time factor of roughly 1.8.. You can do this above method with HID and it's best to do it with metal halide. The metal halide replaces the LED 425/660nm part of the equation but it's not as good for THC production but it works great for bulk IMO. If you were to look at the above equation using HID instead of 425/660nm LED it would go something like this. Using HID with a 3.9 time factor for 7 hours a day and PAD lighting using 660/730 spectrums in 1/2 hour on cycles each with a 1.4 time factor for 17 hours a day you could come up with a combined 24 hour time factor of somewhere around 2.5 ish I would guess. This is still a much better THC result then just a HID 3.9 time factor for 12 hours.

Doing a standard 12/12 type of flower like I do. You only get what you can get. I manipulate half of the 12 hours I have the lights on. It's the simplest method. So doing rauber's substation method fits me good. I work with an already strong strain under standard HID 12/12 type of flowering. So manipulating 6 hours of the 12 hours the lights are on gives me a better result then a standard 12/12 HPS flower. I would recommend playing around with the first 6 hours of your on time with clear inc's and do like I did throw in some 27k cfl's. That is another thing CFL's on the other hand as you know are not as strong as HID so it much easer to manipulate the CFL's time factor when they are on. I have found that I can run CFL's and inc's at the same time and get very good results. I also have run just straight inc's for the first 6 hours. IMO it all depends on the strain I guess.. Wow that's alot for me.. Time to smoke..

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Originally Posted by seventhchild

to put it differently...is my HPS/MH wasted while the INC's are on?

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No your inc's are wasted..

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Originally Posted by Weezard

I'm convinced that UVb is more harmful than helpful in a vegging plant.
I like to leave the risky:weedpoke: to folks that can better afford the loss
How about it, 7th?! You game?

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not for UV! All 12 of my parents children have bad eye sight , I don't want to be the first to go blind . I have chosen far red to experiment with.

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Originally Posted by seventhchild

not for UV! All 12 of my parents children have bad eye sight , I don't want to be the first to go blind . I have chosen far red to experiment with.

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Good move!:)

I'll be watching your far red trial.
I was not impressed with mine, but I went outdoors for flowering under UV filters, and now have free far red to burn.;)
So, I didn't really give it a full trial indoors.
Do you plan a side by side? Some with, some without?

Just point me at it.

Aloha,
Weezard

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Originally Posted by seventhchild

I flower under 3-400w HPS until the last 3-5 weeks and then they enter the 400w MH section of my flowering room.

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This is how i grown the past few years and even though its worked well it is time for a change [mid-life crisis?].First i must decide on a far red light source but am having trouble finding light charts. then i will have to decide how to space the new lights among the old for even distribution. then wire in a new contacter and timer. DAMN no wonder i haven't changed my setup in so long.
anyway to answer your question Weezard i think a side by side followed by multiple dual chamber bio essay tests would be the best way to gage results and is how i hope to do it.

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Originally Posted by Dogznova

I use the bulbs I showed you in the link. Halogen bulbs have a little more 730nm well, they have a lot more 730nm IMO but standard clear inc's can also be used. As far as the "enhanced spectrum" goes. It was the only halogen I could find that screwed into a standard light socket so I grabbed it. Turns out IMO they work very good. I can find a halogen spectrum chart I think but it's not for this enhanced spectrum. It's on this board in Mother 2nd Martian tread. hope this helps.. Hope everyone had a good holiday.

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I was unable to find the chart in the 2nd martian tread but i did find this one but it stops at 700nm. does anyone have a link for incandescent spectrum charts? also..... it seems that if you change the voltage going to an INC you change its color....110 volts gives a different spectrum than 120 volts ....

Excellent!:thumbsup:
I'm in.
For a 730 nm. source, it's hard to beat Incandescent "black lights"
They put out a tiny bit of UVa and a relatively enormous amount of Far red.
They are cheap and available from Wallyworld.
Note that they emit considerable IR as well and the bulb gets very hot.
Might require more cooling.

Aloha and mahalo,
Wee zard

i have always wondered about those black lights.. but i read somewhere that they are only good for about 100 hrs and that is what like 9 days of flowering?? not a very cost effective way to hit em with 730 nm..
i may be wrong but thats what the GE site said..
~MG

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Originally Posted by mainegrown

i have always wondered about those black lights.. but i read somewhere that they are only good for about 100 hrs and that is what like 9 days of flowering?? not a very cost effective way to hit em with 730 nm..
i may be wrong but thats what the GE site said..
~MG

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I did not know that.
Thanks MG.:)

Makes sense.
They drive the filament hard to raise the color temperature to get some UV, then filter out most of the visible light which makes it run very hot.
Course you don't run the 730nm. source for more than 20 minutes before, and 20 minutes after the main lights.
(Leaving them on with the 660nm. is counter productive.
As I understand it, the 730nm. is a phytochrome toggle of sorts, not an energy source.)
That's still only 150 days on average.:(

I wonder if wiring 2 of 'em in series would solve several problems at once. Hmmmm...:detective1:

Need some way to measure the Far red output.
Any suggestions? anybody?
Don't be shy.

Logic tells me there will still be plenty of far red at a lower voltage but almost no UV and less than half the heat.
(2 X R. = .5 X A., and, since V. is also halved, the W. per bulb is X .25!)
The spectral "curve" of these pups is more like a steep ramp.
Got one somewhere. I'll try to find it for ya.
Ah! Here 'tis;
[attachment=o234818]

L8r
W.



This is going to be an informative test.

Aloha, Y'all

Weeze

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I wonder if wiring 2 of 'em in series would solve several problems at once. Hmmmm...

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or maybe a light dimmer? i'll put my meter on one today and see if the voltage lowers as i dim a bulb. but maybe an increase in voltage would be more productive in a regular INC or halagon ? your right need a way to measure far red

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Course you don't run the 730nm. source for more than 20 minutes before, and 20 minutes after the main lights

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. Dogznova runs his for 6 hours ?

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Originally Posted by seventhchild

or maybe a light dimmer? i'll put my meter on one today and see if the voltage lowers as i dim a bulb.

You probably won't get a true RMS reading.
A 'scope is more informative.
Basically, a home kine dimmer changes the total power applied to the load by turning the current on sooner, or later in the 60Hz sine wave.
Kind of a crude pulse width modulator.

but maybe an increase in voltage would be more productive in a regular INC or halagon ?

It would be certain to shorten their useful life and raise the color temperature.:D

your right need a way to measure far red . Dogznova runs his for 6 hours ?

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Dogznova does a lot of interesting things.:D
Sometimes I doesn't foller him.
An' so far, that has worked out well.;) - chewed-up Pogo quote.

Jus' ribbin' ya dogz.;)

Seriously, unless you are going full-on Rauber, you need to do some reading about 730nm. usage.
Google is your friend here.:cool:

If you come up dry, I have some info stashed somewhere in this terrabyte of arcane and disorganized information.

Hey, OM! Have you got any Far red info for 7.
I love the on-topicness of it. UV? FR? "alla same kine":)

Aloha,
Wee.

"Ditto"

hey weez i did some looking and i DO have the PAD manual...... but i dont have much/cant come up with much info on 730 nm light by itself.. :wtf:
maybe its just getting kinda late but i am stumped.. if you wanna send me some of that info i would love it man.. :)
i only have like 300 mb of info on growing and a dozen or so hard copy books that my mom gave me but it can be so hard to find the RIGHT info in all that mess :(


i am very interested in playing with some cool flowering games soon.. i am thinking that using clones is the only way to go about it. i have the space/time/materials (at least most of 'em ;) ) as well as the wish for some more info on how this fine plant grows, to go about some little experiments.. i was thinking that this would be a good use for a couple ounces of the herb..

i wonder what the 730 nm would do when backing up an LED array?? not only help to make it flower faster but to pack on more weight.. i have been thinking about some of the problems that are attributed to LED growing and people seem to find that it takes longer for the gurls to flower to completion.. would that be because the 660 nm liht has such a large time factor?? HPS is like 3.* but 660nm is like 5.5.. so.. any thoughts?
im winded and gotta smoke the bubbler but wish to hear what ya gotta say on this lil idea..
and again please hit me up to work out sending some info to me.. thanks
~MG

Remember... Black Lights are only used for the night time 730nm.. Clear Inc's are much better for day time 730.. Black lights or 730nm LED's are being used in the Martian Method's dark time...... Of course it's 17 to 20 hours of PAD darkness (depending on what cycle you want 12/12 11/13 or 10/14)....... Remember it's 1/2 hour on of 660nm then 1/2 hour on of Black lights or LED 730nm.

Here is an example... 17 hours of that combination of light 660/730 being cycled will give your plants the equivalent of 12 hours of darkness AND 5 hours of Day light. (Red 660/730 can do some strange things) Now take that 5 hours of day light that it gave you and add it to the 7 hours of 425-445nm/660nm (425nm blue dominant spectrum) and you have a 12/12 flower with aprox a 1.8 time factor using 24 hour of light...

WEEZ the reason I think that this info should be in this UV thread is.

That 660/730nm PAD light cycle from above..... Will out perform any UV-b bulb on the planet.. UV-B actually hurts the THC production not increases it.. UV-B IMO will increase trichomes.. But lots of trich don't mean lot's of THC ..I'm just saying.:thumbsup:

great info here subscribed for sure. :thumbsup:

http://www.gelighting.com/na/busines...all/reveal.jpg

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Originally Posted by seventhchild

http://www.gelighting.com/na/busines...all/reveal.jpg

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this revel bulb is emitting at both 660 and 730 so i should not use it right?i am leaning toward using HPS only on one side of my room and clear inc's and HPS on the other.800 watts of inc's only for 30 min than 800 watts HPS only for 11 hours than another 30 min of incs only on clones from four verities SOG style to test for differences in resin/tric production and maturity . what do ya'll think?

sounds good to me.. post pics and all that :thumbsup:


~MG a.k.a. le Maine développé

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Originally Posted by seventhchild

this revel bulb is emitting at both 660 and 730 so i should not use it right?i am leaning toward using HPS only on one side of my room and clear inc's and HPS on the other.800 watts of inc's only for 30 min than 800 watts HPS only for 11 hours than another 30 min of incs only on clones from four verities SOG style to test for differences in resin/tric production and maturity . what do ya'll think?

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Yes that bulb looks good.. If you keep testing, I think you will see that you can run those inc's up to 6 hours and your HPS 6 hours and get good results.. Starting out with one hour of inc's is how I started...LOL... Now I'm up to 6 hours of inc's mixed with a small amount of low wattage 27k cfl's...It just keeps getting better...

It's what called "Rauber's Substitution Method" ..... Chapter 10 of the PAD manual... Good luck with your grow..:thumbsup:

After researching that bulb you posted.. It turns out that's the same bulb I use.....LOL....Thank's for the spectrum chart.. That's awesome.. No wonder the bulbs works so good.. The link I posted above was from Home depot. I couldn't find a chart for it... :thumbsup:

what about blue cfl's?

Nice thread!

Weez, I scanning as fast as I can right now, but I think you posted a comment about how hard BLB (Blacklight) Inc.'s filaments are run to produce more UV.

My research (not that I'm right, but) indicates that the filaments are identical and the only real difference the bulbs is the BLB glass (Wood's Glass) used in the outter envelope.

In other words the Far Red output of the BLB Inc.'s is basically the same as the Clear Inc.'s, the main difference in visible emission.

I dissagree with UV results as false Far Red positive possitives as the light sources used usually indicate. Far Red doesn't give hit and missed or "mostly" results.

I use what I personally have experience with. Considerring the cost of Clear Incandescents verses the cost and added complexity and DANGERs of ballasted UV lamps, I would suggest serious Qualitative growers get "EXPERIENCED" (Jimi Hendrix).

Gotta Run (crazy work load today).

Take Care, Sal.

Howzit, Sal?
Good to see ya back.

I'm fairly sure about the thinner filament being used to push the color temp before filtering, though I have no actual facts to offer here.

It think it's what causes the relatively short life expectancy.
That, and the heat generated in the Wood's glass from filtering out the visible light,

'strue that 60Watts is 60 Watts, but running the filament hotter shifts the emitted wavelength towards UVa and, unfortunately, will shorten the life of the unit.

Clear incandescent lamps are indeed much cheaper, and longer lasting, but I was not sure of how to factor in all the visible light frequencies that come with.


Now, ya gotta help me out wit dis one.

"I dissagree with UV results as false Far Red positive possitives as the light sources used usually indicate.":(:wtf:

That went in my eye and is still spinning round in my skull.:(
Cognitive dissonance of the first water.
Darn near as bad as.

"If it had not been for my horse..." - Louis Black:D

And then there's;

"cost and added complexity and DANGERs of ballasted UV lamps"

I think ya lost me when ya switched subjects.
Party bulbs have no ballast, and I'm using the Sun as my UVb source.
Mebee slow down a tad so's us mere humans can try to follow it too.:rastasmoke:






Take yer time, brah, not critical.
I'm just tryin' to follow this for the science.
Last thing I need now is more, or stronger buds.:stoned:
Tough life, yah?:)

Aloha
Easily confused, Weeze

Sal don't run...LOL.. How you been. Was thinking about shooting you an email. Now your here I guess I don't have to.. I 'm looking to start a tread on 420 mag in the LED section.. I was wondering if maybeeee I could get some oversight with my tread over there when I start it...LOL.. I know your busy... But I'm a rookie...:rasta:

Weez.... I think he was referring to the Far Red comet you made a few post ago..The one that say's you didn't get much effect from Far Red .. Don't quote me though..:thumbsup:

The other part of his comet seems he is talking more directly about UV-B bulbs and the danger associated with them...I think this is what confused you (ballasted UV lamps).. I had to re-read it myself...

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Originally Posted by Dogznova

Sal don't run...LOL.. How you been. Was thinking about shooting you an email. Now your here I guess I don't have to.. I 'm looking to start a tread on 420 mag in the LED section.. I was wondering if maybeeee I could get some oversight with my tread over there when I start it...LOL.. I know your busy... But I'm a rookie...:rasta:

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Not till the end of next month, I'm in Civil court till then, but if you post a thread there I'll have to join the site and for some reason never got past that point with ICmag, but maybe 420 mag wont be repeat of that.

I think it's just the heat retained in the bulb from the light filtering, but Wood's Glass and Quartz are UV transmissive and hard glasses (~borosilicate & Soda Lime Glasses) are UV absorptive, which is way standard hard glass outter envelopes block UV at least somewhat in standard bulb envelopes.

I'm sure the filaments run hotter on BLB bulbs the whole bulb seems to.

Running parallel BLB bulbs and gotta change allot.

Gotta run. Finish this one next time.

Take care, Sal.

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Originally Posted by salmayo

Not till the end of next month, I'm in Civil court till then, but if you post a thread there I'll have to join the site and for some reason never got past that point with ICmag, but maybe 420 mag wont be repeat of that.

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Would you rather I wait till the end of march?.... Icmag is a no go for me also...Not a very nice place IMO.....

all graphs are from this site Spectrographic charts - CandlePowerForums[attachment=o236612] incandescent blacklight


[attachment=o236613] 117watt incandescent
[attachment=o236614]revel incandescent

[attachment=o236615]red incan rope light

[attachment=o236616]cfl blacklight [align=left][align=left][/align][/align]

using the "Rauber's Substitution Method" would it be best to add the ican blacklight to the clear incans to balance the 660 and 730 or is there a preferred ratio ???

[attachment=o236623]

[attachment=o236624]

[attachment=o236628]blue party bulb

[attachment=o236629]osram 2700k cfl 9 watts

[attachment=o236630]red party bulb
limited to 5 uploads per post the blue party bulb appears to have more 730nm than the red bulb!!!

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Originally Posted by Dogznova

Would you rather I wait till the end of march?....

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No that's fine, TP's not asking that.

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Originally Posted by seventhchild

using the "Rauber's Substitution Method" would it be best to add the ican blacklight to the clear incans to balance the 660 and 730 or is there a preferred ratio ???

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I'd say No.

Luckily Red Inc.'s alone and Clear Inc.'s alone provide a good ballance that is just a bit on the shady side of a Direct Sunlight spectrum, which is quite good for pigment synthesis, but it shifts to less desirable shady as is travels down paste the first layer of leaves.

Adding more Blacklight Inc.s (BLB's ~ Blacklight Blues) to the mix makes things shadier.

Adding Clear or Red Inc.'s to CFL's at a ratio of 1/3rd Watt Inc. per watt of CLF used, gives a more Redder than Direct Sunlight spectrum, which is actually better in my experience in general.

Preferred ratios, reveal the problem of personal preference on that one, but I prefer the Redder than Sunlight spectrums for Indoor light intensities compared to outdoor Direct Sunlight intensities.

"I was not sure of how to factor in all the visible light frequencies that come with." In general - Their Blue is fairly low and not that cristical if you already have a strong Blue signal, Far Red tends to act a bit more than Red.




Gott run again.

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Originally Posted by salmayo

No that's fine, TP's not asking that.

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Sure I understand.. I would just like to make sure you can setup an account before I start a tread.. Just so I don't say something like "the master will be here to answer some questions" And then you not be able to get an account setup for what ever reason.. Thanks in advance for your time Sal.

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Originally Posted by salmayo

I'd say No.

Luckily Red Inc.'s alone and Clear Inc.'s alone provide a good ballance that is just a bit on the shady side of a Direct Sunlight spectrum, which is quite good for pigment synthesis, but it shifts to less desirable shady as is travels down paste the first layer of leaves.

Adding Clear or Red Inc.'s to CFL's at a ratio of 1/3rd Watt Inc. per watt of CLF used, gives a more Redder than Direct Sunlight spectrum, which is actually better in my experience in general.

Preferred ratios, reveal the problem of personal preference on that one, but I prefer the Redder than Sunlight spectrums for Indoor light intensities compared to outdoor Direct Sunlight intensities.

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Ya this is good info... I took out my red inc's and added clear halogen bulbs, Now I want to throw a few of the red inc's back in there.. I love a Redder than Direct Sunlight spectrum..LOL ....

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Originally Posted by salmayo

Adding Clear or Red Inc.'s to CFL's at a ratio of 1/3rd Watt Inc. per watt of CLF used,

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I had not planned on using CFL'S . Do you suggest that ratio with HPS's? I am a little concerned about the lack of blue if I use an HPS/CLEAR INC combo......ok real damn nervous about it.......I've been using a MH to finish the crop for app 15 years,,,,,hard to let go.....anywho...should i be concerned about the lack of 420nm during flowering ??
[attachment=o236686] typical CFL

[attachment=o236687] typical incandescent
[attachment=o236688] HPS