PassThatShit, you have my sincere apologies for being rude to you in my last response. I just get incredibly irritable when I'm on Tramadol, I also bit off my little brother's head last night when I shouldn't have as well.
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PassThatShit, you have my sincere apologies for being rude to you in my last response. I just get incredibly irritable when I'm on Tramadol, I also bit off my little brother's head last night when I shouldn't have as well.
Of course proving a negative is pretty damn near impossible, for the same reason that we cannot, with our limited evidence and capabilities for observation, disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or a race of leprechauns living beneath the surface of Pluto. It is the job of people who hold such beliefs to justify them, not the job of the skeptic to disprove every wacky claim and possibility that people can come up with. Invisible, undetectable things whose origins cannot be explained, which work in inexplicable ways, whose substance is unknown, and for which there is no evidence, do not need to be disproven, because they are indistinguishable from non-existent things.
And it is a pretty wacky claim to suggest that a really really complex intelligent being, with all the parts put intricately together so that it is capable of designing universes and lifeforms and monitoring all events that ever occur, capable of creating morality and logic and the fabric of matter itself, could just spontaneously appear out of nowhere with no explanation required of it.
We might as well just say that the universe, in its primordial simplicity, came out of nowhere with no explanation required of it. It is a much more parsimonious explanation, since it requires only the simplest of beginnings (a Hawkings singularity). Theists propose instead that there was first a really inconceivably complex being who chose to make a universe in which it was subsequently possible to be an atheist because he deliberately chose to not provide any objective proof of his creation or interaction with the world.
If you're going to persist in the delusion that the world had to be designed by someone (why people need to anthropomorphize the creation of the universe is beyond me), it would be far more logical to say that the universe is just a computer program written by a super advanced race of aliens who evolved over long periods of time from simple beginnings via Darwinian natural selection, because then at least you'd have an explanation for how the universe-designer got there. It's pretty far-fetched, but not nearly as far-fetched as the God hypothesis.
I've told you that isn't my purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billionfold
No one can know if he exists or not, everyone realizes that.
But we can argue whether or not to believe he exists
I'm not trying to prove that God exists. Why would someone who believes in him have to prove that he is true? I sometimes pop in here to share what I believe. It's not to convince you, cause I'm well aware that I can't. I'm confident that the day will come when everyone will be convinced. So you will have to stayed tuned for the final chapter.
You see, as strong of an argument you feel you're making for your side, it comes across as foolishness to me. I'm not trying to offend you, but I can see what you don't know and don't understand. Science is true, but you can't see the man behind the science.
Now you're gonna tell me that the "Adam" generation didn't live close to 1k years right? Is evolution traveling backwards? How can you prove that those men didn't live over 900 years? How can you disprove the writings of the men that seen Jesus and his miracles? Why do you think he has such fame today? Has anyone done anything close to what he did to earn them this much fame for so long? Let's be realistic, bible excluded, Jesus must have done some amazing things for us to still be arguing about him. But as the bible teaches, after what he did, the word was spread worldwide and everyone knew about him and his fame spread until this day. Would a humble carpenter with some good morals really get this much publicity? I think not. I don't have to prove anything to anyone about the bible, cause the substance and evidence is in my heart and you can never take that from me.
PTS,
No one can prove or disprove gods existence. If one could, it probably would have been done by now by men smarter than us.
And it is irrelevant whether or not god exists because we are talking about the belief that god exists. Not that he does. And, I am not asking you to prove he exists. I am asking you to support your belief. The best thing you’ve come up with is your personal experience we talked about a while ago.
I know you don’t understand our arguments and they seem foolish to you. But it probably due to your lack of understand of logic, or something of that sort. Because, they are quite valid. And I do not make arguments I ask questions: “why believe?”. And I counter your statements (not arguments)
I also do not try to disprove their statements, I don’t need to. You need to support them.
But, alas we’ve gone over this.
“the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim”
What I don’t understand is why you believe their accounts. It doesn’t matter if they are true because neither of us can ‘know”that. But why do you believe them, this will always escape me. Is it because your mom told you when you were a kid the bible’s “non-fiction”.
The plane fact is, there is NO reason to believe the accounts. It is faith.
And faith is irrational by definition
Yes, but how did life get that way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Synonymous to the first question.Quote:
The real question is, who could come up with a design for a designer who can create the whole universe and millions of complex lifeforms? And who could come up with a design for an intelligent designer designer? Surely if God created the whole universe, and has the machinery for monitoring everything that goes on inside it, and the machinery for generating all the biological diversity around us, then he must be way more intricate and complex than life itself!
I dont really know what you mean. I wasn't making an argument i was trying to clarify a misunderstanding we had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billionfold
Ok so if I understand correctly...its obvious that the existance of God can't be proven. But what you guys want to know is WHY THE BELIEF of the existance of God stands strong in the heart of PTS and a whole lot of others and even me. Unfortunatly, the support of our belief that god exist will not satisfy you.
The reason why the support of our belief wont satisfy you is because it wont be based on a theorie, fact, evidence, proof or whatever procedure that we use in science. Eck you might probably think its an irrational belief but if it was the case then there is a shitstorm of irrational believers..so il try in the best of my abilities (I'm french so its kinda hard ) to show you some support of the belief of the existence of God that are somehow rational...logic
The reasons why there is a lot of people who believes in God today are
1- The past of our human kind and the ignorance of the primitive mind. The ignorance can be seen twice through the age of man.
First, I think that science (a majority I guess...) as come up to a hypothesis (its maybe a theory..) that before society ever existed, when we where in total survival mode (Kinda like what Rousseau thought) we were probably very well and food was abondant (like the garden in the bible..that garden might represent earth...well maybe more like Africa with a hole lot a fruit trees. This might look irrelevant but its still still plausible for many people today hehe).
Anyway, to make it short man always loved sex if you just think of how it feels and thus we end up making a lot of babies..multiplying till we one day see that we are to many now and there is not enough food and etc etc...thats paleontology and history...you can find the rest of the story up to date somewhere or in the educational system.
Ok so from the start we were happy and food was abondant..but what were we thinking back then on the meening of life. We suppose that the surviving DNA of our kind might be Adam...(BTW that Adam DNA thing I saw it on a respectable tv channel but I cant remember the show so please correct me if I'm wrong). Even so, there were probably pacific tribes or mini-societies that were thankfull for there periods of prosperity. If that kind of thinking were present for many generations well when your thankfull you adresse to who?...Today it is by some to science because its helped us in countless ways but by a lot of people it was and it is still a higher power ( again check your history on mankind) like nature or whateverstay they did adress to in the past and now.
Second, I suppose strongly that when Descartes developped is theory of the cogito and therefore the importance of developping sciences and technics based of mathematics. Basicaly the new logical way of explaining the ways of the world. I meen by the word logical in our capacity of reason: science and all the *sciences that goes with that
**Philosopy, sociologie, history, geologie etc for human sciences
***Mathematics, physics, biology etc for pure sciences
2- Therefore, some of the anwser found by science disaprouved many things that were told, believed or even worshipped (in worst cases hehe) but the thing is that at that time man was without a doubt curupted by power (organised religions thats you hehe) so the problem was the wrong doings of some men that controlled the masses like a shephard with is sheeps. Eh the irony is that usualy the shephard care for is sheeps. Why? because its is food to survive. The basics. So that's why billions of people still believe that there is a god who gaved us nature, evolution, reason etc wich is good in our lives And to know that by all means we humans have a common goal wich is the survival first (this is not attained everywhere but it could and everyone knows that) and global happiness (still needs a lot of work). These goals exist and we are making our way up to it but what seems to happen here is that it slows down because of a greed for power. This greed that we didn't have before until we faced the rarety of ressources versus the unlimited needs of humans wich is worsed by the developped society since its filled with greed..devouring and polluting nature. So living in a luxurious world burning up he ressources is the product of what we worshipped before...for some yes but at a time were everything was abondant things were different, we were thankfull.
Now, I'm not saying that I despise all of what science created...for that of wich is good that comes out of a man's hands or mind I am thankfull. I put my faith in science and in man. But, this does not meen that I am not thankfull for the things that were there long ago, wich man as nothing to do with or can't modify....yet.
ok I could go on but I think its time for me to tell you my beliefs wich i think is a God.
First the definition of a god is defined by us humans so if we can define God or what is it well its everything that we can come up that is impossible for us to do or comprehend. But, the thing is that with evolution, we might yet understand if we survive for say a couple of billion years. See where I'm going here.
Then what is God? Who is he? I don't know..maybe someone that gave us purpose. A man perhaps...or maybe the will of mankind....Yep..I'd go for that idea wigh seems logic but still unprovable but luckly there is a lot of time to think about it if we survive =)
Feel free to put any comments on it ;)
peace
I can see what your saying. When I use the word god on here (it goes for most people )I am strictly speaking about the literal God described in the bible. And generally only confronting people who are fundamentally religious. So much that they don’t believe in evolution.
I am totally open to other concepts of god, and I plan to peruse my own spirituality in the future (I just don’t have time now, and it’s not time for me to do that yet)
My father is very atheist, but I didn’t’ know this until a few years ago. And more so in the last year because we’ve talked about it. I talked about my logical arguments against Christianity (the only religion I know enough about to be critical of) and he told me that they would never “work” on believers. He said that these people disallow themselves from even examining their philosophy. They are so entrenched in faith that nothing, not even Buda appearing and letting them know about the misunderstanding. I’ve read and heard about such believers, ones that don’t believe in dinosaurs and think the devil placed the bones there to fool us!
This message board is the first place I’ve been able to engage with such minded individuals (as in Canada we really don’t have many). And my current conclusion, after reading what PTS believes, I think he was right. And it scares me, I no longer wonder how bush could get elected twice.
I'm pretty much done with this thread, though I have learned something. I never undstood until recently why Richard Dawkins said he refused to engage theists in logical televised debates. Now I understand. Those completely devoted to their faith will indeed claim to have plenty of logical evidence. But once you deconstruct it, they take the easy and entirely irrational road out. They simply throw logic out the window, then claim that logic is unnecessary but their beliefs are still rational. Their justification is that they simply KNOW, deep down, that god exists. That their relationship with him is something only they can see, and therefor exists.
In reality, this is an excuse for the worse symptom brought upon by the virus of faith. What this virus does is convince you thoroughly that you are right. It makes your brain shut out logic and reasoning, and convinces you that because your brain has reached a state congruent with a logically-held conclusion, it must therefor be true. It puts your mind in a state where your beliefs no longer need rationality, no longer need a reason, they simply need to be reinfoced by a powerfull devotion so strong that it supresses everything to the contrary. It convinces you that your devotion is of the highest importance, that everything that threatens such devotion is a threat to be rejected.
And, sadly enough, people convince themselves to forget that the brain is capable of absolutely anything and everything. There is NO LIMIT to what it can convince you of, there is NO LIMIT to how real it can make something seem. The brain's ability to convince you of the authenticity of a belief or perception is so powerfull that it can seem a thousand times more convincing than anything percieved in the real world can be. It is why schizophrenics cannot be convinced that the voices aren't real, it is why terrorists cannot be convinced that god is not a tool of hatred, it is why fellow's like Bong30 in the political forum cannot be convinced their perception can be wrong, no matter what evidence exists to the contrary. Instead people cling to the false belief that if something weren't real, there would be some small SOMETHING that would feel or seem wrong; but it simply isn't so. And so the cycle continues, and people continually justify themselves in whatever belief they hold, that it MUST be true because their mind sees it as so incredibly, convincingly real. Justifiction is no longer needed because the belief is clamped down by iron spikes that will allow no train of reasoning to dislodge it.