Feminism (male input welcomed)

^I have thought a lot about what you said about dual incomes causing higher prices, and I would have to agree with you. Whenever there is an entity willing to pay more for something, prices go up. My little restaurant just got overtook by Pottery Barn so I know about this personally.

How do you figure it caused(or is connected to) a moral decline? I ask this with an open mind. If you are talking about the family, this is how I see it: if both parents are working then YES children will not get raised as well as if one or both parents stayed at home. If your argument is that women working caused children's decline in some way or another, you need to consider the implications of that. Why should women be the primary caregivers? Aren't men equally capable? If this is your argument/belief, please respond to my questions...if not, please let me know how you think feminism is 'connected' to the moral decline of America.

I am a single custodial father to 4 kids.
You hit the nail on the head. If BOTH parents are working. How about if there is only one parent? Why are there so many more single parent families? Society today makes it so much easier for a man to say "You can work....go get a job and raise the kids. Bye." I know that sounds absurd but I think there is a truth there. It's no more "Shut up and get my dinner!"...............sounds like the same sad morality but it's worse because now the children of these broken homes don't even have a bad role model of the missing parent. What becomes of them? If your answer is that the custodial parent is more moral and will raise up a more moral child I think the statistics will prove that false. I think the sense of "responsability" goes missing. A child back then may have witnessed his father being a total jerk but the dad still fufilled his responsabilities.

- Slow -

so you ARE saying that the moral decline is because of single parent families? i just want to be clear on your postion- and that sounds reasonable. I also understand what you mean when you are talking about men leaving families easier because they know the women are capable without them (you're not assuming that it's only men who leave women though, are you?). But I don't quite see what you are getting at with the rest of your post there...

Yes Dutchlover, that is exatly what I'm saying. The rest of it was that there is a snowball effect in that the children from single parent homes are growing up with one less moral value (responsability). Of course, in theory, this can be overcome by a good parent but in reality it rarely is.

- Slow -

Thank you, Slow, for articulating your position and also making it legible by not underlining it! I was having a hard time reading between all the added-in lines. (My eyes are tired, tired from studying.)

I guess I'm a feminism but I hate labels like that. I wish we just treated each other like human beings and could be done with all the organizations and labels that have been conjured up in order to fight intolerance. I like the thread :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by birdgirl73

The sad truth, however, is that fewer and fewer families, especially those without enough education to get really good jobs, can truly do that (arrange things so that one parent can stay home), and I suspect more of the societal degradation you alluded to is a result of high divorce rates and single-parent situations than working moms..

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So you've finally come around . . . you've finally decided that what I said three pages ago back in post #64 is true, then?

Hallelujah. Glad I was able to make a point that you finally circled back around and decided was true.

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Originally Posted by Mrs. Greenjeans

I am posting out of sequence here, because I just had to say this is quoteworthy as all get out.

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Thanks!


And slow, recouched as such... you might have something. But I don't know why the rise of single parent families or rising divorce rates would be laid at the feet of feminists. I might understand the thought behind doing so, but I'd immediately question its validity.

I'd also like to know just what the hell this "moral decline" is, that everyone keeps talking about. It sounds like senile individuals reminiscing about "back in the day". It seems that human nature has remained relatively unchanged throughout the past several thousand years of recorded history. Humans lie, cheat, steal, beat their spouses, etc.
Does the fact that these issues are discussed publically, and revealed (in part through feminist critique, civil rights, and ethnic inequality issues) mean that we're in a moral decline?

Or just the opposite?

^Slow has never actually elaborated on what he means by a moral decline. He has said that no parents to raise children are connected to it, but he has never defined what "it" is.

Very good point about bringing things into the open Poly!! (This is the second time i have wanted to give you rep but i cant :()

This is what I'm wondering, and I know it's a bit off-topic, but why is it that people need to announce they recieved bad rep from someone, and feels a need to bitch about it on the board for everyone to see? It's just rep, people.

Just wondering.

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Originally Posted by Purple Banana

This is what I'm wondering, and I know it's a bit off-topic, but why is it that people need to announce they recieved bad rep from someone, and feels a need to bitch about it on the board for everyone to see? It's just rep, people.

Just wondering.

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I posted something about it yesterday. It's a status thing, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Breukelen advocaat

If you let things here get to you, or take it too seriously, it's time to go - for a while, at least. It's only light entertainment, and a way to kill some time.
All this "rep" stuff is just supposed to be for fun. I can't believe people actually care about it or even bother to do it.

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http://boards.cannabis.com/cannabis-...ml#post1329531

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Originally Posted by Purple Banana

This is what I'm wondering, and I know it's a bit off-topic, but why is it that people need to announce they recieved bad rep from someone, and feels a need to bitch about it on the board for everyone to see? It's just rep, people.

Just wondering.

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I saw the first one as an incredible invitation to kick him when he was down...

But yeah, it's completely ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by slowlickitysplit

Demeter, in another forum you wrote "I wrote some disgustingly violent poems about ripping men's heads like lettuce..."
'nough said!

For the rest of you. Please, if any of you could explain to me what I did to deserve your wrath I will do my best to maintain an open mind. Seriously.....educate me. Mold my mind. Inform me.

- Slow -

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That's right pumpkin, I wrote that when I was 19, yes, I was a very mean girl. Funny how rape and incest can spawn such feelings in a young girl.

But I am much older and wiser now. The years have taught me many things that clearly you have yet to learn.
In this thread we have already explained what is wrong with your arguments. I personally don't have more time for such an overgrown student;) I have enough trouble keeping up with the 90+college kids I teach every semester.
You want to be educated- then read! Education is a lot deeper than a freaking Pink Floyd song suggests, yea, duh!
Read books about women's issues. Read books about the marginalization of other groups. Read about history and mythology and philosophy. Read poetry. Study science. Mold yourself big guy!
Then we might be able to converse.
until then - buh bye

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Originally Posted by Demeter

You want to be educated- then read! Education is a lot deeper than a freaking Pink Floyd song suggests, yea, duh!

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I'm sorry, but my Floydian urges are kicking in... :stoned:

The song isn't about anti-education, Waters and Gilmour specifically state that in many interviews about the song, it's about the mistreatment of the school-aged youth in the '40s and '50s. it's very pro-education in a backwards way.

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Originally Posted by Purple Banana

I'm sorry, but my Floydian urges are kicking in... :stoned:

The song isn't about anti-education, Waters and Gilmour specifically state that in many interviews about the song, it's about the mistreatment of the school-aged youth in the '40s and '50s. it's very pro-education in a backwards way.

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Oh please don't get me wrong pb, I LOVE Pink Floyd, and of course, you are certainly correct about the intent of the song when it was written- I was simply referring to the way that slow was using it- as an indictment against little old me. He was using the wrong song to put down my pedagogy:wtf:
Many students also love to be silly and sing the song right before midterms- and they mean it the way slow did, not knowing what you do about it, and that is what I was objecting to.
This makes me want to smoke a bowl and listen to Dark Side of the Moon! That particular album was very big when I first started smoking, way back in the day. The first time I ever listened to that album some friends of mine got me very high and put me in the back seat of a friend's car with awesome speakers, and just left me there to trip. It was amazing:stoned:

OK...I'm a noob and I have learned my leason about reps. I simply went to my account and found these negative remarks and I was like WTF? Leason learned.

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

Thanks!


And slow, recouched as such... you might have something. But I don't know why the rise of single parent families or rising divorce rates would be laid at the feet of feminists. I might understand the thought behind doing so, but I'd immediately question its validity.

I'd also like to know just what the hell this "moral decline" is, that everyone keeps talking about. It sounds like senile individuals reminiscing about "back in the day". It seems that human nature has remained relatively unchanged throughout the past several thousand years of recorded history. Humans lie, cheat, steal, beat their spouses, etc.
Does the fact that these issues are discussed publically, and revealed (in part through feminist critique, civil rights, and ethnic inequality issues) mean that we're in a moral decline?

Or just the opposite?

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Plyy,
First off, let me say you have one hell of a sharp mind!
OK...Why do you question that the rise in divorce rates is tied to feminisim? To me it seems obvious, as I explained. Can you suggest other reasons for it?

What is moral decline? Hmmm. You have a good point. What is morality? I agree with you on human nature but morality is relative to the society one lives in (It's considered immoral to practice canibalisim here and now but was perfectly acceptable to many peoples of the past.) I'll have to think on it a bit.

I would like to go back to the issue of feminism's effect on the economy. Please remember, I am not an expert but here is how I see it....
Back in the heyday of feminisim almost every radical speach spoke of being "Chained to the stove" or "Enslaved to our fathers and husbands" and all kinds of Emancipation talk. They related womens plight to that of slaves. Now without a doubt the emancipation of slaves had a profound effect on the economy, both immediate and long term. How could it be that the emancipation of women (though drawn out longer) could not have an effect?

- Slow -

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Originally Posted by Demeter

That's right pumpkin, I wrote that when I was 19, yes, I was a very mean girl. Funny how rape and incest can spawn such feelings in a young girl.

But I am much older and wiser now. The years have taught me many things that clearly you have yet to learn.
In this thread we have already explained what is wrong with your arguments. I personally don't have more time for such an overgrown student;) I have enough trouble keeping up with the 90+college kids I teach every semester.
You want to be educated- then read! Education is a lot deeper than a freaking Pink Floyd song suggests, yea, duh!
Read books about women's issues. Read books about the marginalization of other groups. Read about history and mythology and philosophy. Read poetry. Study science. Mold yourself big guy!
Then we might be able to converse.
until then - buh bye

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Demeter,
I'm sorry. It was a cheap shot. I was hurt by what you wrote and I was trying to be mean. It was wrong of me and i sincerely appologize.

- Slow -

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Originally Posted by birdgirl73

So you've finally come around . . . you've finally decided that what I said three pages ago back in post #64 is true, then?

Hallelujah. Glad I was able to make a point that you finally circled back around and decided was true.

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Is this to me Birdgirl? If so I'm a little lost. I think the issue is why is a dual income necissary not that it is or that it is hard for a single parent to support a family.

- Slow -

i'm a firm believer in complete chaos. i believe we shouldn't fight for equality but superiority. cuz im jus fuckin insane and i love it:D

i'm a feminist.
im not ashamed of it.... not even with the misconceptions.
and i dont know why any one would be ashamed to call themselves thus if they are believers in equality.

men often say the with feminism, chivalry died. this isnt that case.... feminism goes far deeper than the political correctness of opening a door for someone....

people often say with feminisim came the decline of 'family'
if 'family' is dependent on woman with no voice, few rights and a prefit mold that ALL females are expected to fit in (unless of course they are spinsters, or even worse gay which does a whole new number on 'family'...) then I question the real value of 'family' anyways.

feminism *may* have impacted divorce rates, but who should be blamed, the women who have finally found a voice or the men who see women as chattel?
(of course im not saying all men are that way... its just a point to think about)

it's so easy to blame the 'feminis't the revolutionary, the person who think everyone deserves an equal say.... and few people question the society that created the NEED for the radical.

if there was equality, pure equality, not the 'well you can vote so stop bitching' ideaology of so many then there would no need for feminists. but there really truly isnt...

women do not recieve equal treatment, equal pay or equal respect.
they start jobs in lower positions, are promoted at lower frequency and recieve less pay, statisticly. they are face with double standards, and when they complain are told they are either 'not true women' (well how dare we ask for more... we must all be bull dykes!) or that we, because of our gender cannot handle more, or do not deserve more.

i am NOT speaking for everything or everyone....
just my general insight after semesters upon semesters of gender studies and sociology courses, and of course... opinon (but i am proud of my oppinion and always open for other educated veiws...)

I'm a bloke. Women are good.

I am a taurus, and a proud hairy man. I was born that way.

As such I have a rather more stubborn edge to my character. But I am not bullish, and I am not scared to display a more gentle side of my character.

I consider myself to have feminist views, but I am not gay. I feel comfortable telling most people, but few people understand where I am coming from, so tend to I draw the line at telling my construction work mates the few times I have worked on building sites. Most people suspect I am gay or bisexual as a result of my identifying with feminism, but I'm pretty sure I am at least not one. I think its more likely I am latently asexual. Anyway, I think it is an important human experience to be able to identify yourself with both feminine and masculine qualities, its part of being human, it's part of being conscious.

So my own personal opinion of feminism transcends the identification with male and female charactersitics, and I think I understand why. It is more of a humanistic point of view- compassion, co-operation. I feel blessed with these qualities, and it saddens me when I see so much brutality and mindlessness in the world. I feel like I want to offer some sort of apology to "women" for having to put up with men's shit for so long, I feel the need to protect them from these bastards who are not representative of me in any way, and I feel pain and anguish when they reject me for that. I guess these are probably self-centred male instincts though, and ones that may well be partly responsible for the emergence of patriarchy in the last place.

Or, I hope instead, the resurgence of a more spiritual society in the new age. Not neccesarily with more emphasis on feminine values, but one that accommodates those within everyone, and also one that does not deny the true character of the male psyche as well. I think the world as it is now denies both.

Feminism is not just about being female, its about being human.

i believe that in order for a woman to truly
be independant they must first suffer from
things like abandonment ,neglection and more than not
'they grew up without a father.

i know quite a few women and the ones who are true feminists
have major major issues. a lot of the time these women are very educated
and professional and in societys eyes they are fine
but
behind closed doors its a game of hide and seek
empty bottles of anti-depressants and lots of psycho therapy

I am a feminist.


If you believe men and women should be treated equally, that women should be respected, and women should have the right to choose what they do with their lives....

YOU ARE A FEMINIST

Wow, this post is still going... I posted on it a long time ago and just happened on it and read something like five pages at two in the morning. I'm not going to say much, just on the last page or two I've been impressed with a couple posts so I'd like to give a shout-out to a few posters.

To friendowl - I agree that to be a true feminist you have to see the shit, so to speak, I remember, with shame, a far younger me trying to impress a very forgiving TA that women have equality. *sigh. I've since come facetoface with that which I didn't believe.

To Staurm - I work in a sawmill and as usually the only woman in the lunchroom, if not the whole shift. I have to thank men like you that make my 8.5 hours a day a respectful, enriching, and openminded experience. (Save the patronizing idiot that calls himself the gentleman, of course.) Feminism is totally about being human!

To thecreator - second time today I totally agree with you on the same issue and similary to Staurm's comment, if we treated people as humans every day the world would be a far better place.

To Polymirize - as Slow said, you are a sharp mind and I admire the wisdom you displayed in your posts.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by katyowns

I am a feminist.


If you believe men and women should be treated equally, that women should be respected, and women should have the right to choose what they do with their lives....

YOU ARE A FEMINIST

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No I'm not, I'm an equalitist.

I only read the first page, but I just wanted to say that acceptance is much easier in the long run, and much more effective than tolerance.

I'll try to keep my opinion concise.

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Do any of you identify yourselves as being a feminist? If so, do you feel comfortable telling other people this?

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No, I'm not a feminist, and I'm not a masculinist either. I honestly find either label out of balance. I don't understand why there needs to be a label at all. I eat food, do I need to be a foodist? I find a label for such things as treating women nicely is unnecessary.

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What stereotypes do you feel feminists have? Do you feel these are negative or positive?

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I think stereotypes can often be out of balance, but I find more and more that stereotypes
have a basis for them, and they are often based upon typical examples, or a combined societal perspective. I don't think most feminists are butch are lesbian etc, but I think probably every butch or lesbian is a feminist. I'm not quite sure what you mean by negative or positive so I won't answer that.

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What does feminism mean to you?

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I would say that feminism is a movement for women to give them equal rights, equal authority (and sometimes more) as men. It is also a philosophy that exalts all things feminine.

My belief plain and simple, is that men and women are equal in value, but not in roles, not in gifts, not in strengths by any measure. I believe that women have not been as abused as they think they have in the past. It seems to be very easy to stir up animosity over the mistreatment of women because they are weaker and less able to defend/protect themselves, and I think this has been used to innacurately distort history and public perception. I think that on one hand, I believe in the equality of scripture which says to treat another as you would want to be treated. But on the other hand this again has been manipulated and is very deceptive. We have been taught from an early age that we are all created equal. And on one hand that's true, being we're all human and we all have the same value. But on the other hand no, we not equal at all.

I think that feminism no matter how hard it tries will always come in conflict with Christian and family values because it works against the very natural design of male, female, marriage, and family. The new idealogies emerging place women as equal in authority, breadwinner, parent, and everything else. This is not balanced and never will be.

My honest belief is that feminism is born out of selfish desires and rebellion. It's amazing how much has changed so quickly, and it makes me stop and examine the past and look to where the future is headed.

I will also say that feminists have no moral foundation for their claims and rights, and more and more I understand that so many of these newly emerged civil rights groups have none either and only scream louder and louder until they get what they want and firebrand anyone as a sexist or rascist who gets in thier way.

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What issues do you think are most important for feminists?

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self-defense. feminine self exaltation. more women in polotics. money,money,money and lots more money.

I'm a feminist... 98% of all men are ass holes... their butt scratchin , fartin, nose picking, smelly, sweaty, foul mouthed, bone heads..... Its why I like Gurls.....

And yes.. I'm a man and I wouldn't go out with me either....

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Originally Posted by slowlickitysplit

OK. I'm aware that some of you would like to drop this but I feel I need to respond but I will keep it short.
Purplebanana - Why is two incomes now necissary but one generation ago it wasn't?
Birdgirl - When my wife fell into a major post partum depression that included hitting my kids, I became a stay at home dad for my three young kids. I am proud of the job I did and it was a difficult but very rewarding time for me. I also worked full time nights to provide for them. It was something that needed to be done and I did it. Where did I learn these values? My parents. Mom was a stay at home mom untill the youngest went off to elementry school. I believe that the family unity and it's decline is at the root of most of societies problems now. i feel the crises in families today is due to economic issues that is a direct result of women entering the work force. I believe they entered the work force as a direct result of feminisim which began with the fight for voting rights.
I appologize to anyone I have offended and I am quite cognisant of the fact that the barn door will never be closed again. Thank you all for listening with open minds.
Peace.

- Slow -

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That is completely true. The statistics ARE there. A family with a working father and a stay at home mother is much more likely to produce a successful and hard working child.

The problem is, although I may not agree with your opinion to such a radical degree, it is impossible to convince most people, women mainly of course, that this is the case as it is now "fashionable" to take offence when this topic is even lightly glossed over.

What a lot of women don't seem to understand is that it is in the males nature, GENETIC LINEUP, to look after and to provide for his family. It is accepted to say to a man "why are you not providing for your family" but not acceptable to say to a women "why are you not careing for your family".

Women have great power. They are probably more intelligent than man. I hope one day that women will understand the advantage they have; overlook the apparent pressure of conforming to idealism is a daunting task they must surpass. Man forced women to believe we have control. That is a huge mistake that lives to this day.

More women need to understand that there are other parts of the world where women are in fact dominant. But I think we are beginning to learn the evils of dominance.

Do any of you identify yourselves as being a feminist? If so, do you feel comfortable telling other people this?

- well, i think the problem with this is most ppl dont realy know how to classify feminism since theres what i like to call "normal" feminism and "extreme" feminism. im all for normal feminism, but im not comfortable saying i am a feminist because when you say that most ppl picture huge, manly, man hater women, with hairy armpits fighting in the streets.

What stereotypes do you feel feminists have? Do you feel these are negative or positive?

- "huge manly, man, hater women, with hairy armpits fighting in the streets..." i guess that would be the big one huh...?

What does feminism mean to you?

what normal feninism means to me is that women and men are completely equal and should be treated as such.

What issues do you think are most important for feminists?

- equality.



i just have a question... dont you all think that the "extreme" feminist should be allowed to call themselves "femenists" because personally ive watched some of what you would call "extreme" femenist videos... and as a man it really pissed me off. they used such bogus statistics like "the majority of women in the world die in violence," like yea thats really horrible, but im pretty sure it would be the exact same for men, like just think of all the wars going on and such... the vast majority of soilders in the world are men and im fairly sure men get murdered just as much as women (most likely for different reasons tho). and they kept saying things like today in age its "the war on women", and one woman also said things like "i cant walk down the street without being scared of what a man could do to me..." etc.

also i know things are way way worse for women in 3rd world countries but this was a video focusing on europe and north america and they were using world statistic and trying to give the impression like its the same here too. it really turnt me off on the whole subject...

anyways my point is... dont you think that this kind of "extreme" feminism would deter any man from wanting to call himself a femenist or even listen to what they have to say?

i think theyre just acheiveing the opposite of what they want to accomplish and theyre prevent the "normal" women from doing it as well. because lets face it for femenism to succeed you need the support of both males and females. i dont want anyone to hide the truth but dont blow things out of porportion and make them seem even more unfair than they are.

i also think its a big reason why many women dont want to classify themselves as femenist. do you agree?

like im all for femenism because i have a freind whos a girl and shes told me that she thinks guys are smarter than girls and that girls should only do "girl" jobs. pissed me off so much! but at the same time i felt kind of bad for her because she obviously doesnt think a whole lot of herself... which i knew from before, but im not going to get into all that...