god vs. no god

I can't believe I even fell back into arguing this. Lets all just consider:

1. Some may believe god is a diety of sorts, the ultimate intelligent ruler of existence.

2. Some may believe that the closest thing to a true "god" is an ultimate, pure form of enlightenment. Unobstructed, clear perception.

3. God may exist, as a creation of our united consciousness through a common belief.

4. Some may have given up any such search, but still want to understand this universe as much as possible, and find the right answers for themselves and us all.

Now lets consider, has any of this debate brought you, or anyone else, closer to any of the above definitions of god? Has it spawned more negativity, or possitivity? Is anyone ever convinced by their opponent? Has this whole debate, the same one that's been done 10,000 times, made any of us closer or more understanding of each other?

I think this whole debate is overdone, and counterproductive to all our well-being. We've all contributed to this counter-productive activity, myself included (especially myself). Maybe there's more interesting and explorative courses of action we could be pursueing together, rather than trying to accomplish goals by fighting each other. I should have learned this lesson long ago, it would make me happy if somebody else did too.

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Originally Posted by greendove

And I am certainly not trying to prove that there isn't a God. I'm just stating that the particular "proof" you were trying to offer isn't any sort of proof at all.

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I am a bit lost here, Greendove.
What proof did I offer here?

Proof? Now that would some trick, huh?

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Originally Posted by wrasler

in response to your first statement regarding intelligent design. what i am saying is that it isn't some new theory that popped up recently. "creationism" has been viewed as the explanation for the origin of life for a very long time. consider the famous scopes trial in the beginning of the nineteenth century. it was over a teacher who went against the rules of the time and taught evolution as opposed to what was required: creationism (which, in case you didn't know, is the same thing as intelligent design).
i want you to understand that i am not trying to discredit your beliefs as you are trying so hard to mine. i was simply asking questions. i also know that we will not convince each other one way or the other and have reached an impasse in the argument.
finally, is it really that hard to believe there is something bigger than yourself out there?

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Wrasler...Intelligent Design is not part of my beliefs. My point, which I think was missed, is that the ID platform that has been getting some attention the last few years is part of an attempt by the right wing of America to introduce God into science. Thats it. Do I think they created the theory? Or course not, but they are behind the push.

My last post was to show you that there is indeed a link between the ID platform and the US right-wing. Nothing more.

I always stay out of debates on God for one good reason and that is. Mpst people have their minds made up and so it's all pontless. You can say Prove God exists and I can say Prove God doesn't exist. For me God is as real as my dad is. If you really want to know God, you need to form a relationship with Him through Jesus. Spend time in prayer, spend time reading His Word, spend time learning and talking about Him with others. Men are sinners, they will always fall. For anyone that has a true desire to Know God and learn, I'll be glad to answer what I can and disscuss things.

As far as the knock knock cult people that come around, hehe I invite them in and like to set them stright. There are many sites that list verses and tell how to deal with them and show them the errors in their false doctrins.

Keep in mind that faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God.

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

Keep in mind that faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God.

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tell me exactly how you "HEAR" god? god isnt shit but a thought/idea/etc. most ppl that beleive in god an have faith are jus ppl that do good but dont really beleive in karma so they hafta have suttin to say causes good things to happen ta them or w/e

i beleive in god, hes just an ASS HOLE he aint really gave me shit in my life, everything i got i was either born wit or got my damn self

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Originally Posted by hewhispers

Ok, but here's the thing...and it can be applied to both the universe as a whole, and the Earth specifically.

Before there was something, there was nothing.
Thats some transition.
Even with the big bang.
What was before that?
A big rock?
And before that?

And then what about Earth.
Initally it was lifeless. At least thats the assumption.
And then :POOF: there was life. :birthday:

Now thats some trick.
Agreed?

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God doesn't solve this problem. The something-from-nothing debate can be used from either side. If you want to go by the logic that something can't come from nothing, how do you explain God...besides removing him from logic, which is undebatable. So surely we must all accept that something is here, because we're sitting here talking about it...therefore either:
1. Something did come from nothing.
2. Something was always there.

...more and more I've been thinking, like many, that religiousity/mysticism is something humans evolved to give them peace. Whether it be through memes, genes, or what have you...and only those who are capable of sustaining their peace without believing in a God, can.

For instance, I find more peace in the fact that there isn't a heaven/hell. Sure, a second, eternal life would be fantastic (which is why it strikes me as something humans invented). But at least I don't have to walk around with a giant surveillance camera in the sky following me. I've been able let go of a lot of guilt since I've become an atheist, and reaffirm that I am a good person because I want to be...for no other reason.

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Originally Posted by peacetrain

God doesn't solve this problem. The something-from-nothing debate can be used from either side. If you want to go by the logic that something can't come from nothing, how do you explain God...besides removing him from logic, which is undebatable. So surely we must all accept that something is here, because we're sitting here talking about it...therefore either:
1. Something did come from nothing.
2. Something was always there.

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I am not suggesting that God is the answer on how it all started.
But you are not the only one who thought I sided with God for an answer.
I need to phrase my comments better I suppose.

My amazement was only that the Earth was at one point lifeless.
To move from innate to organic is a miracle, at least in Vegas odds.
Some want to chalk that up to God, so be it for them.
Who am I to dance on their faith?

Sorry that I implied your beliefs! Usually people who can't fathom the idea of a Big Bang explain it with God...my bad.

The Christian Logic: If I can't explain or understand something (evolution/big bang/the universe/etc)...it must be God. It encouarages people not to think any further about the matter. "I can't explain it therefore I never can explain it therefore its God"...and I think thinking is good!

But yeah I agree with you...it is amazing that we're here...and conscious of so much, too! Blows me away daily.

Does god love us? In every religion involving god I've heard of there are rules, or laws of god. To love us he'd have to trust us. Trust doesn't require laws and rules. In fact to create these laws and rules you would corrupt trust. Can they coexist without damaging eachother? No.