i thought we could only have 6 plants?
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i thought we could only have 6 plants?
215 already passed 14 years ago. :rastasmoke: just kidding, bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by VapedG13
12x18 is a floor for medical gardens, that means your county can up that limit and the Cali supremes have ruled that you medical need trumps all limits, so your only real limit for medical use is your medical need.
Prop 19 changes none of that. but, i think you guys really know that already. :twocents:
It's VERY clear that 19 does NOT affect medical users and growers. Why do people continue to think it does?Quote:
Originally Posted by boaz
Here is the exact wording of the prop:
6. Provide easier, safer access for patients who need cannabis for medical purposes.
7. Ensure that if a city decides not to tax and regulate the sale of cannabis, that buying and selling cannabis within that city??s limits remain illegal, but that the city??s citizens still have the right to possess and consume small amounts, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.
8. Ensure that if a city decides it does want to tax and regulate the buying and selling of cannabis (to and from adults only), that a strictly controlled legal system is implemented to oversee and regulate cultivation, distribution, and sales, and that the city will have control over how and how much cannabis can be bought and sold, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.
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Even if your community decides to NOT allow commercial sales, ALL the rules that exist now under 215 and 420 remain in place, and all the growers, co-ops, etc., will do business as usual.
You'll also be able to grow a 5x5 patch for personal consumption that you can share with (but not sell to) any other adult. No more busts for having a joint, or passing one around at your next party, or having a bong in your car.
How is that not a major improvement over the laws we have now?
Cultivation is one such law that is noticeably non-exempt.
In spite of the fact that the tax cannabis Web site says otherwise, the only medical marijuana exemptions that the Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Initiative actually makes are with regard to possession, consumption and purchase limits, which only ensure that patients would still be allowed to buy medicine at dispensaries.
The word ??cultivate? is conspicuously absent. Whereas today a person with a doctor??s recommendation has the right to grow up to an unlimited number of plants, the initiative would drastically reduce that number to whatever can fit in a 5??x5?? footprint (around 3-6 plants??per property, not per person).
This will force many patients to resort to buying instead of growing their own medicine, because of the inconvenience caused by producing multiple grows a year rather than growing a year??s supply of medicine at one time, as many patients currently do outdoors. And growing indoors??which typically requires special grow lights, an increase in hydro use, and a lot of time and attention??is a comparatively expensive endeavor.
The initiative would further impact medical marijuana patients by banning medicating in the privacy of their own homes if there are minors present, as well as in public (currently perfectly legal[18])??an invaluable liberty to those with painful diseases who would otherwise have to suffer until they got home to relieve their pain.
Finally, the medical marijuana laws that are exempted from this initiative apparently only apply to cities. For medical marijuana patients who live in an area that has county or local government jurisdiction, according to a strict reading of the initiative, medical marijuana laws are not exempt
Medical Marijuana patients should have different laws that apply to the medical patients
Recreational users should have their own set of laws governing their use
Medical Marijuana patients have a need for weed
Recreational users have a want for weed
All I see is a bunch of recreatioanl users using medical people as a steping stone.....make it legal at all cost.....insted of a stepping stone... you all wanna step all over us
[facepalm] The bold sections in my above post ARE 215 and 420, and they WON'T CHANGE AT ALL! Get it? Medical users can still grow and use and share as much as they and their doctors decide. They are not limited by prop 19. What part of "except as permitted under" do you not understand?
All the "no" propaganda seems to ignore this.
215: http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/code.../11357-11362.9 (scroll down to 11362.5)
420: California Health and Safety Code 11362.7-11362.83
So your saying medical patients dont have to go by #19 and can grow as they see fit ...this 5x5 grow room restriction will not apply to medical patients:wtf:
The main thing that 19 does is give the recreational user the right to grow and pocess small amounts of weed......We medical patients already have this right:hippy:
The main reason for #19 is the commercialization of marijuana
Correct on all counts, Vaped G13. Sorry if I got a little snippy, but medical growers and users are exempted from the 5x5 rule. Medical growers and caregivers won't have to do anything different than they do now.
The commercialization of cannabis has always gone on. People pay big bucks for illegally-grown weed. Allowing recreational users to grow a small amount (and cities can allow bigger gardens, if they like) or sell it commercially as licensed vendors will be able to do so, depending on what rules their city comes up with.
For a vision of what it could look like, think of our wine industry. We have big "Gallo"-style wineries, and smaller ones, some of which make world-class fine wines that sell for big bucks. The state (IMHO) has done a good job of making sure there were lots of good wineries, and it makes us billions in taxes and related industries.
If 19 passes, the next step would be to get to know your city councilmembers and tell them you want to make sure there's room for the little guy. I don't want to buy weed at POTCO, myself. Keep the licensing and taxes fair to the "boutique" growers, who will grow the awesome stuff in smaller batches at higher quality. California already has good "certified organic" rules in place- Gimme pure, organic weed, please! It's certified!
Now, we could also do some favors for medical users, too. Growers could get tax credits or something for charitable contributions of their product to medical users who may not be able to afford it. Mention that to the mayor. See what can be done.
Just tossing out an idea, but if recreational users want to help out our fellow Californians who really need it for medicine, we'd need to create mechanisms for doing that, and make sure the world knows we care about more than just making bank. Since every municipality will have to set up their own rules, they'll be looking for the best ways to make it good for everyone, not just a few rich corporations. That is, if we get on them and stay on them.
Anybody else have some ideas about what we can do? If it passes, there will be opportunities to do real good things.
Think I'll start a thread! :rastasmoke:
They do. just as Willy cited above, Prop 215 laws are codified into California Health and Safety Code Number 11362.5. Anyone who has ever purchased from a coop in Cali will recognize that code, its stamped on all the products sold there.Quote:
Originally Posted by VapedG13
If Prop 19 passes, it will be codified into Cali Health and Safety Code Number (insert next available code number here) and large sections of the current non medical code will be striked out, removed from the books. (e.g., the section about doing felony jail time in state prison for growing even one plant.)
The courts understand all that even if not all the consumers do.
medical cultivation is part of the current Health and Safety codes that are explicitly exempted in the language. Do you guy really not understand that? I'm not trying to be a smart *ss seriously are you seeing something else that I'm not cause what I'm reading seems really straightforward to me. Please cite sections, that would help.Quote:
Originally Posted by VapedG13
its all in the interpetation
Quote:
DECONSTRUCTING PROP 19 - HOW YOU LOSE YOUR RIGHTS
The question posed is this:
Does Proposition 19 have an effect on the California Compassionate Use Act, also known as 215, and other laws which protect the rights of medical Cannabis patients? If so, what kind of effect does it have?
After reading this paper you will understand exactly how prop 19 takes away your right to CULTIVATE under 215 and People V. Kelly, WHICH by the way is UNLIMITED. This is because, under 215, you have the right to grow ANY AMOUNT OF CANNABIS you need to meet your health needs. Prop 19 replaces this right with a 5 x 5 square foot garden which can be taxed ??WITHOUT LIMITATION?.
In order to understand how prop 19 does this, we must deconstruct the text itself?
In Section 2B, Paragraph 1 of the Act, it states its purpose is to ??Reform California's cannabis laws?. What are California??s Cannabis laws? Does the Controlled Substance Act qualify as a ??California Cannabis law?? Yes. Does 215 qualify as a ??California Cannabis law?? Yes. This is evidence that the ??purpose? of prop 19 was to reform, among other laws, 215.
In Section 2B, Paragraph 3 of the Act, it states its purpose is to ??Implement a legal regulatory framework to give California more control over the cultivation?of cannabis?. Does ??implementing more control?? over the ??cultivation?? of Cannabis effect 215? Yes. Why? Because cultivation is central to the rights that are protected for medical Cannabis patients under 215. It is a right that is currently unlimited by any state controls. Your health needs are the only limitation in this regard and has the ability to satisfy all cultivation rights you would need.
For example If your growing for Cannabis oil to heal your cancer, or perhaps for Cannabis seed as a nutritious food source, it could take HUNDREDS of plants and THOUSANDS of SQAURE FOOTAGE to meet your health needs.
Section 2B, Paragraph 7 & 8 of prop 19 directly mentions 215, but in what regard?
Paragraph 7 states that if a city decides to not tax and regulate Cannabis, then it shall remain illegal to buy and sell Cannabis within the cities limits, BUT it says ??that the city's citizens still have the right to possess and consume small amounts, except as permitted under?, and then it cites 215 and SB 420. Does this protect medical Cannabis patients right to possess and consume under 215? Yes. Does it protect their right to cultivate? No, the right to cultivate is not mentioned or protected in that paragraph.
Paragraph 8 is very similar to Paragraph 7, though instead of protecting the right to ??possess and consume? under 215 and SB 420, it protects the right to ??buy and sell?. Does this protect the right to cultivate under 215? No, again cultivation is not mentioned.
Section C, Paragraph 1 lists many of the laws which are intended to be limited by Prop 19 and states ??This Act is intended to limit the application and enforcement of state and local laws relating to?cultivation?of cannabis, including but not limited to the following?, the act then fails to list 215. Does this mean that prop 19 was NOT intended to ??limit the application? of 215? No. The Paragraph clearly states that the laws which are intended to be limited are NOT ??limited to the following??, meaning that the list is NOT exhaustive and COULD include 215.
Section C, Paragraph 2 lists the laws which are NOT intended to be limited by prop 19 and states ??This Act is not intended to affect the application or enforcement of the following state laws relating to public health??, this paragraph then fails to list 215.
This means that prop 19 does NOT specifically protect 215 from being limited. If prop 19 was NOT intended to limit 215, why wasn??t 215 listed in Paragraph 2 of Section C? Does 215 relate to public health? Yes. Is this list intended to be exhaustive? Yes, because unlike in Paragraph 1 of the same Section, Paragraph 2 does not include the phrase ??not limited to the following?, which means that out of all the laws that were NOT intended to be limited by prop 19, 215 is NOT ONE OF THEM.
Prop 19 then makes its intent unequivocally clear:
Under Section 3 of proposition 19, at Commercial Regulations and Controls it states:
??Notwithstanding any other provision of state or local law, a local government may adopt ordinances, regulations, or other acts having the force of law to control, license, regulate, permit or otherwise authorize, with conditions, the following:
cultivation?of cannabis??
As defined at Online English Dictionary from dictionary.net, the word ??notwithstanding? is literally defined as follows:
In spite of (despite anything to the contrary).
So in other words, Proposition 19 states the following:
??In spite of any other provision of state or local law to the contrary, a local government may adopt ordinances, regulations, or other acts having the force of law to control, license, regulate, permit or otherwise authorize, with conditions, the following:
cultivation?of cannabis??
Does the Controlled Substances Act qualify as ??any other provision of state or local law?? Yes. Does 215 qualify as ??any other provision of state or local law?? Yes.
Do the Commercial Regulations and Controls over Cannabis cultivation imposed by prop 19 OVERRIDE the cultivation rights under 215? Yes, because those controls are active despite any other provision of law, which includes not only the Controlled Substances Act, but 215 as well.
In the implementation of Cannabis taxes, regulations, and controls, prop 19 does NOT distinguish between PERSONAL and MEDICAL cultivation.
This means that your UNLIMITED right to cultivate for your health needs which is protected under 215 and People V. Kelly, is being replaced by the ??Commercial Regulations and Controls? and ??Personal Regulations and Controls? imposed in Section 3 of prop 19.
This means that local governments have absolute control over all Cannabis cultivation, limited only to a 5 x 5 space, AND Pursuant to Section 3 of Proposition 19, under ??Imposition and Collection of Taxes and Fees? local governments have an unlimited authority to TAX all Cannabis cultivation, despite the medical cultivation rights that are protected under 215.
Cities such as Long Beach and Rancho Cordova are already implementing the imposition of outrageous Cannabis cultivation taxes by the square foot if Proposition 19 passes. These taxes also do NOT distinguish between medical and personal cultivation.
So in conclusion, Prop 19 LIMITS your cultivation rights under 215 to a 5 x 5 square foot garden which can be taxed ??without limitation??.
And because Section 3 authorizes ??a local government? to ??adopt ordinances, regulations, or other acts having the force of law to control, license, regulate, permit or otherwise authorize?cultivation of cannabis??, and because Section 3 allows local governments to impose taxes ??without limitation?, their ability to impose taxes on personal cultivation is UNLIMITED and can be imposed WITHOUT A LOCAL VOTE.
********Currently under the California Constitution, ??growing crops?? are exempt from ??taxation??, AND in order for a local government to impose a ??general tax?? it must be approved by the electorate with a majority vote. Prop 19 effectively overrides these precedents of the California constitution in regards to Cannabis by giving local governments the authority to tax a ??growing crop?? WITHOUT LIMITATION AND WITHOUT A MAJORITY VOTE OF THE LOCAL PEOPLE!******