Single Payer health Care

ok i have to give my take on the whole health care issue. i do not want socialism. i like my freedom. but i been almost 10 years with NO health care what so ever and i would give anything to know that if im injured i will get treated. but right now if i am injured om the job, first i get to go to an emergancy room where i MIGHT get decent treatment, loose my job then go into bankrupcy from not bein able to pay my bills.

my theory is this let congress go without their health benifits till they figure out how to give me mine. im payin for it why not with hold theirs till i get mine.

myt point is for alot of us some health care is better then none.

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Originally Posted by yokinazu

ok i have to give my take on the whole health care issue. i do not want socialism. i like my freedom. but i been almost 10 years with NO health care what so ever and i would give anything to know that if im injured i will get treated. but right now if i am injured om the job, first i get to go to an emergancy room where i MIGHT get decent treatment, loose my job then go into bankrupcy from not bein able to pay my bills.

my theory is this let congress go without their health benifits till they figure out how to give me mine. im payin for it why not with hold theirs till i get mine.

myt point is for alot of us some health care is better then none.

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If you get hurt on the job, workmans comp is what pays, 100%. This has nothing to do with the current debate and will not change at all under the current proposals that I have seen.

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Originally Posted by yokinazu

ok i have to give my take on the whole health care issue. i do not want socialism. i like my freedom. but i been almost 10 years with NO health care what so ever and i would give anything to know that if im injured i will get treated. but right now if i am injured om the job, first i get to go to an emergancy room where i MIGHT get decent treatment, loose my job then go into bankrupcy from not bein able to pay my bills.

my theory is this let congress go without their health benifits till they figure out how to give me mine. im payin for it why not with hold theirs till i get mine.

myt point is for alot of us some health care is better then none.

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You got it all wrong. Our founding fathers KNEW the dangers, which is why our Constitution was written the way it was. History is repeating itself due to attitudes such as yours. It can lead to nothing good!! Don't take my word for it, read up on History and see for yourself.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither. ~ Benjamin Franklin

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Originally Posted by savage7garden

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither. ~ Benjamin Franklin

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AMEN!

i don't get why a lot of you are missing the point. yes, we need some type of health care reform. do we need it as it is currently proposed? no. this is merely a ploy to take our rights away....all in the name of what's best for the people. why does the govt need real-time access to our bank accounts? do you guys want that? i don't. there are many other crazy things going on in this bill. all you naysayers need to check your facts.

it's amazing how a few words such as "health care for everyone" can make people give up their liberties and freedoms. our forefathers are rolling over in their graves.

yes, our forefathers knew something would go awry in the future of the country. that IS the reason that the constitution is written the way it is (you are right savage).

in case some of your guys can't figure it out, let me spell it out for you:

OUR GOVT DOES NOT CARE ABOUT US, NOR DO THEY HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART!!!


savage, i've read a lot of the bill. you can find postings like the one you put up on all over the internet that picks the bill apart.

people keep arguing, saying that this is not socialism, that this is not where it's heading. what do you call it then when the people, who are the supposed empowered ones in a country give their rights to a select few and that select few makes decisions for you (in what will soon be every aspect of your life)? well actually, it's communism, which is preceded by socialism.

socialism- a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

communism- a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

check out the "10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto" and how they apply in america.

THE TEN STEPS OF KARL MARX (With my comments interspersed). Taken from the Communist Manifesto

1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

We already have this in America. Through property taxes we have been made serfs on our own land. Through tyrannical zoning laws, wetlands regulations, EPA regulations, etc., we no longer control our lands. Our once strong private property rights have been abolished through regulatory oppression, bureaucratic tyranny and unbiblical types of taxation.

2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

We already have this in America. The higher your income, the higher the tax bracket you are placed in for purposes of calculating your tax bill. This is completely evil and unBiblical. The Bible Teaches us the principle of the Flat Tax when it requires that everyone is to pay a Tithe (1/10) of their produce to the Lord. God did not say that the poor only pay 5% and the wealthy are to pay 25%. God said everyone rich or poor, pays the same percentage. Why do liberals pretend to want to tax the wealthy more? Because it advances their program for fomenting class envy and class warfare. Divide and conquer, that is the strategy of the evil communist liberals who are wrecking America with ever higher taxes and increasingly bigger government.

3) Abolition of all right of inheritance.

We already have this in America. The inheritance taxes are astronomically high and this is just plain evil. The Bible says in Proverbs 13:22 that "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just." Liberals want to destroy the family because strong families do not need socialism or government give away programs. Liberals want to destroy the ability of strong families to perpetuate the influence of their progeny by stealing half of their net worth through the imposition of confiscatory inheritance tax rates.

4) Confiscation of the property of emigrants and rebels.

We already have this in America. You have heard about "FORFEITURE LAWS." Many branches of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies and regulatory agencies are confiscating property, goods and money without a trial, without due process, etc. This is a perfect tool for the tyrant bureaucrat who wants to make your life hell. If you are not "Politically Correct" liberals will use these laws to harass you and confiscate your property.

5) Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

We already have this in America. It is called the Federal Reserve Bank. This is the single most evil, deadly and damaging of the 10 Planks of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. The counterfeit paper debt based monetary scheme that we now suffer is going to destroy our Republic, our liberty and our economy. The Federal Reserve System is an exclusive monopoly. The Federal Reserve is not a branch of the Federal Government and it does not have any reserves of Gold or Silver coin backing their "Federal Reserve Notes." Federal Reserve Notes are counterfeit Money, fiat money. The Federal Reserve controls our economy through it's monopolistic control of interest rates. We have a 20 Trillion Dollar Debt pyramid in this nation and one day it is all going to come crashing down. When it does crash, the bankers who gave us nothing more than paper money will repossess and confiscate nearly every home, business, farm, vehicle and all property in America that has a mortgage or outstanding balance on it. On that day you should take you gun out and kill as many communist liberals as you can find.

6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to exercise complete control over the media via the FCC and monopolistic media mogul billionaires. At this time they control 90 to 95% of the media that the masses turn to for information. But the free press has proved more resilient than our enemies planned and the Internet is really upsetting their apple-cart. As for their efforts to centralize transportation, liberals are very anxious to force us all to use state run mass transit trains, subways and car pooling schemes. Thus we can see how the enemies of liberty have very nearly achieved their goal of fully implementing the sixth plank of the communist manifesto.

7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to force central planning on farmers. They have been very successful through the use farm subsidies and regulations at destroying the small independent family owned farm. Today instead of family farms our nations food supply is produced and controlled by huge corporations and this is called "agri-business." This destruction of the family owned farms was not an accident of history, rather it was done by design. American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to force central planning on the manufacturing sector. By imposing millions of regulations on every minute aspect of business, they have either driven the small independent factories out of business or forced them to sell out to one of the large multi-national mega-corporations. Only the large corporations have the capability, the man-power to research and obey all of the millions of federal regulations. This destruction of the family owned factories was not an accident of history, rather it was done by design. Again we can see how the enemies of liberty have very nearly achieved their goal of fully implementing the seventh plank of the communist manifesto.

8) Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to pass federal legislation to implement the goals of this Plank of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. So called "industrial armies" in modern parlance are known as Unions. The collection by "force" of Union Dues, from the employees who are subject to Forced Unionism, has been devastating to the political process in America. Every Union without exception supports left wing candidates with both money and man-power. As to the concept of equal pay for all workers regardless of skill or productivity, this plank of the communist manifesto has been implemented both in Union shops and via the minimum wage. But the minimum wage law violates the rights of private parties to contract without interference and is another example of the numerous ways that liberals have worked to implement Marxism in our nation.

9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.

This is Social Engineering. This, for example, is telling people where to live and telling farmers and businessmen by dint of government regulations and central planning how to run their business! Yes we have plenty of Social Engineering in America. Yes our nation has been severely damaged by leftists who have been very successful at implementing to a greater or lesser degree all ten planks of the Communist Manifesto, but it is not yet absolute or irreversible.

10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.

Yes we have this in America. In my opinion this Plank of the Communist Manifesto ranks second place for the evil it has done to our nation. Our lousy, government run, Public School and Public University system costs three to four times more than it should and yet they do a poor job of educating the children. Now the Federal government is trying to take over public education in America. The Fed's are proposing through their Goals 2000 program, another program that is right out of the communist manifesto. It is called the "Schools to work program." But the worst aspect of government schools is that they are actively promoting and indoctrinating our children in the ideas of Marxism, big government, central planning, government run education, fiat currency or paper money, environmental extremism, forced unionism, evolution, feminism, homosexuality and socialism in general. May God Help Us to defeat our enemies peacefully now rather than by violence or war later.

Here is the total:

1. This goal has been fully implemented.
2. This goal has been fully implemented.
3. This goal is only partially implemented.
4. This goal has been fully implemented.
5. This goal has been fully implemented.
6. This goal is only partially implemented.
7. This goal is only partially implemented.
8. This goal is only partially implemented.
9. This goal is only partially implemented.
10. This goal has been fully implemented.

This means that America is already approximately 50 to 60% communist. Odd isn't it that the 60% figure is exactly what most conservative economists say we are paying in taxes when you add up every tax and combine that figure with the cost of Federal regulations.

google it more, it's all over the place. i guess a lot figure, "since it's not on tv or i don't read it in the newspaper then it must not be true.". c'mon guys and gals, the media, all of it is owned by someone. someone very wealthy, someone that controls what gets put on tv and put into print. those wealthy people don't want everyone else around, using up FINITE natural resources. they want to be around to spend all the money they made from us.

"but shake, how would they take our rights away? they can't do that." they do it everyday, through legislation. that makes it perfectly legal, according the biased, crap laws that they make. by hiding stuff in bills, such as HR 3200 aka the "health care" bill, that are thousands of pages long.

ding ding ding.....ding ding ding.....ding ding ding.....that's the alarm clock.......WAKE UP!


-shake

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Originally Posted by savage7garden

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither. ~ Benjamin Franklin

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but avoiding the downside of liberty is the mantra that the liberal establishment has used to place their advocates in power and subjugate the citizenry for years. accepting complete responsibility for your actions and the necessary willingness to accept failure as a possible outcome to our efforts make liberty a tough row to hoe. obsessed with the material, fewer and fewer americans each day understand just how hard it is to be truly free. we seem to accept the magic of a society that embraces the individuality of all men as commonplace and fail to appreciate that gift.

the phrase "freedom is not free" is seldom heard except when we are being asked by some bureaucrat to pay for his or her mistakes with our hard won wealth or even our very lives. the ultimate cost of freedom is the possibility, if not probability, of failure and a certain amount of suffering. the willingness to accept those consequences is a duty that cannot be shirked if our liberty is to be maintained. the bailouts, endless social programs and promises of wealth redistribution by the liberal establishment may play well to those who feel shorted in this life, but can only lead to the formation of a society of drones ruled by an opaque and unresponsive political elite.

workmans comp dont pay dick. thay pay 0% when you get that cup and piss in it. i dont live in mmj state nor do i have a card, so when i piss hot workmans comp is out the window.

i do not agree with the proposed plan but we definatly need something. our system is broken. i dont have the answers on how to fix it but i hope that my vote will put someone in power who can. by the way i did not vote for obama nor would i have. him and the "liberals" aint got the change i want.

there are things our goverment can do to make health care more affordable such as allowing us to by our meds from cannada or mexico. some sort of tax relief for those of us who cant afford health care. let us go across state lines to buy said health care. but the fact remains that the american people are being raped by insuance and drug companys.

i still say let congress go without till they come up with a plan that makes most everyone happy.

Headshake, according to you it seems that liberals have been in power for the last 50 years. Words like yours are the reason liberal is such a dirty word right now. Look up liberal in the dictionary, and youll see a lot of definitions that you might see yourself in. I guess I'm not really sure who these liberals you keep talking about are. I've always considered myself one; I like to give generously, I'm always up for political reform and progress, I like and back movements that grant other's liberty and protect our own.

Also, a lot of the communist commandments have the backing of republican presidents, which are "never" liberal. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm confused on you're research and opinions. You are preaching against communism but none of your bullet points on the manifesto contain anything about the health care bill. The examples you gave are bordering on lunacy.

#1: This is a serious threat to our nation, but it is one that every president and congress has passed a set of laws eroding our ownership of property.

#2: This I dont even want to touch if you're pulling bible quotes for what our nation should be.

#3: Im sure that since not a single "liberal" has a family, they want to destroy everyone elses. Death taxes suck for anyone left with money.

#4: Regan. And then Bush.

#7: Farm subsidies have been around for 70 years. It is not a new thing. The drive for agribusiness was more of one of technology and economies of scale, rather than of politicis. It is not a perfect system, and the loss of the family farm is a sad one. But that is where we change from an agricultural nation, to a manufacturing one, and no one of who knows what.

#8: Unions, while not my favorite thing either, have served a useful role in the shaping of our country's worker's rights. The membership and percentage of population involved in a union has been declining since the 70's: they're not needed anymore.

#9: I dont actually see any facts there.. so..

#10: The only fact I can see there is the Goals 2000 program. Which was made up in the 90's, ended in 2000. The school to work program I couldnt find any info for, unless you're talking about the study that came out in 2001. Which is generally seen as the predecessor of the No Child Left Behind act.


Anyway, I don't really know what you're argument is headshake, but Im going to argue with you anyway. Because probably every bill has had someone's agenda in it, and with a massive bill like this which has so many opinions there is going to be a lot of ridiculous requests. Thats democracy, and thats how it works. It does limit our rights, it does strip our freedom piece by piece, but that is not due to communism, socialism, or the family destroying, resource sucking, boogy man liberals you keep talking about. It is because we elect bad people into power, people that are unscrupulous and morally corrupt. And they get paid big bucks for being that way.

IMO, the dollar is a much larger influence in our politics and in our lives than a whole planet full of "liberals". But whatever man, I guess Im just "missing the point" again. Oh no wait, I just have a different opinion.

i don't think i used the word liberal at all in my last post. and i never said it was the liberals fault that our nation is in this mess. there is nothing wrong with the word liberal. i was merely stating that it is funny that no one probably ever thought that it would be a liberal mentality that would be changing this country for the worst, i always assumed that it would be right wing republicans (not that they aren't doing their part). and in case you haven't noticed, the dems don't need the republicans to pass shit right now. and yes, i know, every dem isn't liberal necissarily. and you're right, i do fall in the definition of liberal in one form or another.

that list of the communist planks was something i copied and pasted here, just to get people to think. you can find list similar, with different wording all over the internet.
food for thought, ya know.

again, the debate is beyond health care. it's fighting against the machine that is tripping our rights away. don't sit here and hide behind it though, acting as a patriot, saying it's okay for them to take your rights away behind "protection". our forefathers didn't think that way. that's not how our country was founded.

i'm not saying i have the answers, simply more questions, same as you. but the proposed plan is not the answer. i guess you don't mind if the govt has real-time access to your bank account? you're okay with this? in the name of health care?

perhaps the govt should hold the insurance companies and doctors responsible and not write legislation protecting them. perhaps lobbying should be outlawed. perhaps political leaders shouldn't get paid.

i'm not arguing with you, it's a debate, as we both have an opinion on the subject. that's the beauty of our country. we are allowed to think differently.

would you give that up for health care? would you give up your right to an opinion? i wouldn't.

"But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations,
pursuing invariably the same object,
evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism,
it is their right, it is their duty,
to throw off such government, and
to provide new guards for their future security."

-decleration of independence

so our forefathers knew something would eventually go awry. that's why they gave US the power to stand up to the govt, overthrow it if need be and establish a new govt. those that have the ability have the responsibility to make change for our safe future.

again, this goes way beyond health care. health care for everyone is merely a guise, a ruse, to take more of your rights away. and for what? so you can die earlier? why all of a sudden is health care a top priority? we've been the only industrialized country in the world without it, but know it's a top priority. they tried to shove it through (by the end of this month) same as they did with the "bail out" bill. people got smart real quick i guess.

the dollar is something else totally. greed in general is an evil thing. who is responsible for holding greedy politicians accountable? you and i my friend, you and i.

as always, i appreciate your opinoin.


-shake

Hey shake, where is that thing in the bill for the bank accounts? Id like to take a look at that but I cant find it in the 1100 pages (hahaha).

And man Id feel so much better about this country if lobbying were outlawed.

I agree with you on the right wings. Thats what is so scary right now, the abuses in power they have established over the last decade or so have paved the way for a totalitarian rule, by anyone. I agree the last thing we need right now is a bleeding heart who can't walk a hard line.

page 59.

"HR 3200 IH
â??â??(C) enable electronic funds transfers, in
order to allow automated reconciliation with the
related health care payment and remittance ad-
vice;

look for a break down of the bill online. it makes it a lot easier to digest. they also want to issue national health care ids. what's that sound like to you? can you say new world order. lol.

i'm not trying to sound like a nut or anything. there is a lot of bad stuff in this bill. we do need something done to the health care in this country. but it's all for naught unless we go back to the drawing board all together. we need to get back to the constitution. get rid of big govt. get rid of the federal reserve and the fiat money system that they have put in place.

in 1933 (i think) the govt took everyones gold to make the federal reserve and this crappy fiat system that we have now. our whole economic outlook is fubar'd. we could get rid of banks in general, for the most part. all they do is make money off mine and yours. there have been at least 9 banks go under this year. a lot more would have had it not been for the "bail out".

i'm sorry for getting heated, this stuff really makes me angry. our country is going to hell in a hand bakset.


-shake