Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
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Originally Posted by JaggedEdge
Everyone has an equal right to go to school or get a minimum wage job that offers health coverage. What your talking about is like saying its unconstitutional to die.
No Im saying its unconstitutional for the government to let a person who needs medical help or they will die be denied because of money. What is the government protecting if they are not protecting our health and well being?
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Originally Posted by JaggedEdge
The wealthy would not be the only ones able to afford the new cure. That is why we pay for insurance. The majority of Americans would be able to get treatment and in a timely manner. Working 40 hours a week at Wal-mart is hardly wealthy, yet those employee's have have the option of being insured.
I wanna hear you tell that to all the folks waiting for that surgery or medication that their health insurance won't cover. The goal of an insurance agency is to take as much money as they can from their clients while giving them as little as possible when they might need it back. That is how they make money. That is capitalism.
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Originally Posted by JaggedEdge
Where does personal responsibility come in? People have problems with all kinds of addictions: porn, illegal drugs, beer, pharmaceutical drugs, cigarettes. The dangers of medications are readily available. It is common knowledge that pain killers are highly addictive. So were exactly does personal responsibility enter in to your equation?
I think personal responsibility is the most important thing of all. It is hard to make informed personal choices however when your therapist tells you that you need to take a 50mg dose of Prozac everyday to be happy. At the same time your school nurse is telling your mom that your little brother has ADD and needs a large dose of Amphetamines everyday to preform normally. Meanwhile your dad is still popping those incredibly addictive opium pills known as Oxycontin he got prescribed for his back pain years ago.
Don't even get me started on all the bullshit meds they try to stuff down the throats of cancer patients. That is disgusting, taking advantage of a person in their most desperate state to sell them your astronomically priced miracle pills which do nothing but burn a hole in the patients wallet. All they really need is a puff of the herb.
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Originally Posted by JaggedEdge
Yes, if a doctor gives you a prescription for pills you don't need, I suppose it would be "legal," but how many people do you know with these addictions who go to their pharmacy to get their fix.
Yes that is what i was talking about. Maybe not necessarily what you don't need, but come on, the government dishes out dangerous man made medications like it is candy and then they demonize natural medications like marijuana and mushrooms. Something isn't right there, and it all has to do with the fact that there is no money in selling plants and fungus that anyone can grow. At least no money for the pharmaceutical companies that need to manufacture their drugs.
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Originally Posted by JaggedEdge
If people want health coverage they can get a fucking job. The system is never going to be perfect, people need to stop being so idealistic. Yes, our current system could certainly use some improvements, but universal healthcare sure as hell is not the answer.
I really don't know enough about the implications of universal healthcare to be able to defend or attack it. I agree with you however that there is little room for idealism in the real world and people need to be responsible and not rely on the government to fix all their problems. I see something wrong though when people who need treatment to survive are denied because they can't afford it. That's bullshit.
If you want to know my opinion, I think we are all fucked. I think we have been fucked since the industrial revolution when consumerism and human populations sky rocketed. There is no need for a currency system in society, you might as well just call money survival tickets.
You might think that is crazy, but that is just because life with a currency system is all we know. The way of life we know with money is so ingrained into us that many people cant see any other possible way of how to run things. Money hinders our freedom, it enslaves us. Unfortunately I don't think society will be open for any change like that until there is a drastic decrease in the human population, whether it be by war, disease, famine or natural disaster. I just think there are too many people in the world, we are over populated and we are running into problems that go along with having such huge populations trying to be run by huge governments with a single ideology.
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
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Originally Posted by JaggedEdge
If you want to argue that our military aggressions are for spreading our ideals than we would be trying to spread democratic principles, not capitalistic ones.
Hell no I don't want to say our military aggressions are for spreading our ideals. You don't spend billions of dollars to invade a country for your ideas. You spend billions of dollars to invade a country for your finances.
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Originally Posted by Stemis516
in a perfect world, everyone in a capitalist economic system would make ethical and sound economic decisions everytime and things would be fine...but there are bad greedy people out there who like to ruin it for everyone else
But as we know it isn't a perfect world, that's the whole reason why communism failed. Looks like its gonna be the same reason why capitalism failed too.
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
The lack of goverment control is what allowed the situation to develop to the extent it did.
The deregulation of banks was the cause of them getting out of control, laws put in place after the wall street crash of the last century were relaxed and we now face the consequences of those "freedoms" in the financial sector.
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
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Originally Posted by 40oz
not necessarily disagreeing with you, but why is capitalism what we need?
right now companies are failing and the government is bailing them out. it essentially survival of the un-fittest. capitalism works because it promotes success and allows failure. the less the government does, the better it is for the economy. every problem we have is really caused from government intervention. for example, we need sound money. right now the Fed controls the money supply. in a true free market, the private market would decide the currency through competing currencies. the currency that would win out would be the one that was the best at retaining its value. we also need lower taxation and less government spending, therefore more spending in the private sector, increasing production. government kills production.
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
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Originally Posted by psychocat
Capitalism is the cause of the current problem.
how so?
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
sorry 40oz but until you can show me how a system without currency DOESNT degrade to socialism at its core i cannot really take anything you say seriously
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40oz
If you want to know my opinion, I think we are all fucked. I think we have been fucked since the industrial revolution when consumerism and human populations sky rocketed. There is no need for a currency system in society, you might as well just call money survival tickets.
You might think that is crazy, but that is just because life with a currency system is all we know. The way of life we know with money is so ingrained into us that many people cant see any other possible way of how to run things. Money hinders our freedom, it enslaves us. Unfortunately I don't think society will be open for any change like that until there is a drastic decrease in the human population, whether it be by war, disease, famine or natural disaster. I just think there are too many people in the world, we are over populated and we are running into problems that go along with having such huge populations trying to be run by huge governments with a single ideology.
I agree whole-heartedly! :thumbsup:
Did you read anything about this here?
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Originally Posted by Stemis516
sorry 40oz but until you can show me how a system without currency DOESNT degrade to socialism at its core i cannot really take anything you say seriously
Well... i think he means something like small free and separate comunities instead a large and organized society... something anarchist-like...
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
ok you know what i like is the fact that people seem to beleive here that capitlism is the greastest form of society we can have, how can one degrade to socialism? socialism is NO worse or NO better than captilism. the problem lies with the propaganda that has be fed to us thru years of conditioning. it not the form of govt that is bad but those who are in charge. socialism can be a effective form of govt so long as those in charge do not try to " keep the man down" and are only concerned with their own ends.
i could point out the many problems with socialism but i could give the same number just differant problems for capilism, feudalism, communism, imperialism, facisism, etc., etc.
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
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Originally Posted by yokinazu
ok you know what i like is the fact that people seem to beleive here that capitlism is the greastest form of society we can have, how can one degrade to socialism? socialism is NO worse or NO better than captilism. the problem lies with the propaganda that has be fed to us thru years of conditioning. it not the form of govt that is bad but those who are in charge. socialism can be a effective form of govt so long as those in charge do not try to " keep the man down" and are only concerned with their own ends.
i could point out the many problems with socialism but i could give the same number just differant problems for capilism, feudalism, communism, imperialism, facisism, etc., etc.
i'm a complete free market/capitalism guy, but i agree with you. i think socialism does work in certain places. for example, france couldn't go to capitalism right now, the people would riot. i think we should give more power to the states and each state can decide its own economy. if one state wants socialism, they can have it, if another wants capitalism they can have it. it isn't really up to the system for how productive a people are, but more up to the people themselves.
Someone explain how putting our country $800 billion in the hole will help us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemis516
sorry 40oz but until you can show me how a system without currency DOESNT degrade to socialism at its core i cannot really take anything you say seriously
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Originally Posted by Coelho
Well... i think he means something like small free and separate comunities instead a large and organized society... something anarchist-like...
Yea that is what I meant. It is in human nature to form into clans and tribes, and only in smaller communities run by leaders who actually come into contact with the people they lead will humans find a system that allows them to be free and protected. Humans, like most animals, are communal. We are not meant to be individualistic, which is how American society is. While having an individualistic society is beneficial in some aspects, it works against our nature to be part of the herd. basically. It forces us to set up currency and keep currency systems which have been used since medieval times to keep peasants in debt to their lords so they would be forced to slave their life away.
Of course, I don't see anything changing too drastically anytime soon (unless the mayans were right about 2012). We will continue to use money because honestly, with all the people in the world and how it is set up, that is the only way things can work presently.
Stemis, you can not take me seriously if you want, I don't care. People like you who blindly enforce capitalism are a dime a dozen. I agree with you that in theory capitalism is pretty legit, but as you even admitted we live in a world of greed and corruption. When that greed and corruption throws the system out of whack and threatens the well being of my family, as it currently is, I think it is time to explore other options.
And coelho, I actually purchased the unibomber manifesto but I have only read to about chapter 8, I can't remember anymore. Im sure I was influenced by that a lot, but most of my influence came from reading about economists like malthus (i know, i know, he is outdated but his work makes you think) and philosophers like Marx, Darwin, and Hume. People who deal a lot with human nature. The conclusions I have come to are just the ones that make the most sense to me based on what I know. Not saying I'm right or anything, but I think you will agree that the only truth in the world is the truth that you feel inside yourself.
