Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion

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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

But see, it's wrong for people to force their values on others if it pertains to something that harms nobody else....drug use, prostitution, and other victimless crimes should not be prohibited because that is, as you say, an unjust imposition of values. However, if the action in question does harm to somebody else, it is and should be criminal....we should be allowed to hurt ourselves, but not to go out and shoot somebody. Fetuses are not given the respect they deserve as a living human being that ought to be protected from arbitrary murder. I suppose murder laws are a case of values being unjustly pushed too, eh?

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Crime rates went down a lot in the 1990's, some 15-20 years after Roe vs. Wade was passed, and many people believe it was because there were less unwanted children being born who were likely to become criminals. This is one of many cases for keeping abortion legal.

New York City is safer than it's been since the 1950's.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

I think you will find that the laws covering abortion are very different to those covering murder.
Just because it wouldn't be your choice does not mean you have a right to impose your choices on others.

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Please explain the difference between abortion and murder. I know it hasn't been born yet, but can anyone really argue that life only begins when they exit the womb? Babies kick in there, and yet I've heard people say that it's not at all immoral to kill it as long as it hasn't gone out the canal yet.

I'm sorry, but crushing a cocoon is killing a butterfly.

A woman gets full sovereignty over her body, but not when somebody's living in it. I really don't see how her opinion is at all relevent to ensuring the healthy birth of the person inside her, that can then be given up for adoption if necessary.

A fetus has no awareness. Even a young infant lacks the brain development that is needed to be a fully conscious person.

I'm pro-choice. I don't really believe in god or an afterlife so I have no qualms with any religious implications implicent in abortion. Sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it's conveniant, sometimes its because people are fools. Do I support women just getting knocked up and getting abortions? Of course not, I'd probably cap it at a one time thing cuz if you dont learn a lesson after THAT shit, you ARE retarded. If I got a girl knocked up I'd ask if she wanted an abortion. I made a mistake, fair enough, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna ruin three lives by letting this kid into the world. Sorry, life isn't always a blessing. If anyone thinks so, go to Africa and say that to their faces. Besides, the pro-life movement is just another form of prohibition, and we all know how well that works. Very, very well. It almost always stops completely whatever it is being prohibited.

/end sarcasm. No, prohibition of any kind is pure shenanigans and only encourages dissent.

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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

But see, it's wrong for people to force their values on others if it pertains to something that harms nobody else....drug use, prostitution, and other victimless crimes should not be prohibited because that is, as you say, an unjust imposition of values. However, if the action in question does harm to somebody else, it is and should be criminal....we should be allowed to hurt ourselves, but not to go out and shoot somebody. Fetuses are not given the respect they deserve as a living human being that ought to be protected from arbitrary murder. I suppose murder laws are a case of values being unjustly pushed too, eh?

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man, I'm so sick of the "oh life is SO beautiful and sacred and everything is so happy and joyous and to kill a clump of cells is murder!"

we can argue about what constitutes a "living being" all day, but the simple matter is people are more pissed about a clump of cells than the 16,000 yes thats sixteen thousand kids that die every single day from hunger alone. These are kids we are talking about and these are only deaths from hunger, not disease and war.


its amazing at how well the corporate media can dissuade people from the REAL issues to something as silly, minute, and utterly ridiculous as the loss of a clump of cells

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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

A woman gets full sovereignty over her body, but not when somebody's living in it. I really don't see how her opinion is at all relevent to ensuring the healthy birth of the person inside her, that can then be given up for adoption if necessary.

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wait let me get this straight. Her opinion, is of no relevance, while you, some random person who is not her, does not have the same personality, desires, needs, economic/social status, or intelligence, should have any say in the matter?

dude, think about that for a bit. basically your saying that her opinion doesn't matter but your does, thats pretty ass-backwards my friend

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Originally Posted by FeedmeWeed

wait let me get this straight. Her opinion, is of no relevance, while you, some random person who is not her, does not have the same personality, desires, needs, economic/social status, or intelligence, should have any say in the matter?

dude, think about that for a bit. basically your saying that her opinion doesn't matter but your does, thats pretty ass-backwards my friend

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indeed:cool:

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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

Please explain the difference between abortion and murder. I know it hasn't been born yet, but can anyone really argue that life only begins when they exit the womb? Babies kick in there, and yet I've heard people say that it's not at all immoral to kill it as long as it hasn't gone out the canal yet.

I'm sorry, but crushing a cocoon is killing a butterfly.

A woman gets full sovereignty over her body, but not when somebody's living in it. I really don't see how her opinion is at all relevent to ensuring the healthy birth of the person inside her, that can then be given up for adoption if necessary.

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There is a very simple difference between you and I.
You believe a human life to be something extremely valuable, I believe it to be unimportant , I feel this way simply because there are already too many damn people as it is.

Im not a woman so im not gonna start to try and even make any decision for one.

Comming from a fiscal conservative and a moral democrat (libertarian).

I can see I'm not going to convince anybody (and the one implication that I'm simply a tool of the corporate media was quite infuriating, as I consider that the worst insult possible), I will say this....I don't think it should be illegal, because as somebody said, that's just another form of prohibition, which never has and never will work. I'd just really rather they didn't and it makes sad to think of anything getting killed....somebody pointed out that it's a clump of cells; well, we're all just clumps of cells, really.

I will end on this note, though. Breukelen advocate said that a fetus is not a fully conscious being, and he also said that a newborn infant isn't, either. In that case, I suggest beginning the movement for a woman's right to stab her newborn child, as long as it is under 6 months old, where full consciousness begins (I don't know when exactly it begins--just making a point). I think the movement will get a large following: newborn babies do not, after all, have a self-conscious awareness of the world, and it is, after all, the mother's choice, so I'm sure they'll be setting up stab-before-6-months clinics soon.