ok listen here.......

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they probably feel that we *never* listen to anything they say, because no one's opinion ever changes

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first part on the quote... i even say i could be wrong... i just say i find it a very unlikely course.... however, i've never had a believer say "i know i could be wrong, i understand your view, but i still believe i'm right" they say something along the lines of "you're wrong i'm right and that's all there is to it" and if they're really religious some retarded crap like "i'll pray for your soul" or "i'll pray god helps you find the light.."

2nd part peoples opinions do change... i didn't read th ebible three times because i wanted to understand what i don't believe in.... i read it becuase ibelieved.... i'm living proof peoples opinions do change... as i grew older and older i believed less and less.... at 16-17 i had one last little fizzle of faith... it died away and i have no regrets... i didn't lose my way (for any christian or believer that decides that's what happened) i opened my eyes... i looked at the world around me and realized something was really fucked up... whatever it may be, IF there is a god, he's definately nothing that's written in the book..

i'm not actualy trying to change anyone's opinions.. i never expect to change anyone's opinion, even on small shit, much less something as major as faith.. i just like to state my opinion... maybe it's just me trying for once to get some christian to acknowledge what i call logic... maybe it's my way of trying for once to not just be blown off.... i don't know the real reason i do... but i DO know i don't start in on it to try and change anyone's opinion... you ever even tried to change a hardcore believers opinion on say.. gayness? it's like fucking impossible... now multiply it by like 30.. and that's about how impossible it'd be to change their opionion of the entire idea of god...

for a better explination, think of it as me finally just giving the hell up on ever having a believer acknowledge what i say as truth, or even possible... even a 0.0000000001% of a possibility... as over th eyears i've been shown time and time again it just doesn't happen....

i don't understand why atheist can admit they may be wrong, they just find it highly unlikely they are... but believers "KNOW" they're right and everyone else as wrong...

also like someone said... any proof they have to derive their religion from came from 'holy text' if that's proof of the christian god's existence, then it'd also be proof of other religions god such as allah etc.... but will you ever find a christian to acknowledge that? i highly doubt it...

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Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho

first part on the quote... i even say i could be wrong... i just say i find it a very unlikely course.... however, i've never had a believer say "i know i could be wrong, i understand your view, but i still believe i'm right" they say something along the lines of "you're wrong i'm right and that's all there is to it" and if they're really religious some retarded crap like "i'll pray for your soul" or "i'll pray god helps you find the light.."

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I find most religious people are willing to say they could be wrong. I admit that i could be wrong in almost everything. I find that the only people who never admit that there's a slight chance that they could be wrong are the people who have either seen god, or have hallucinated seeing god. It's pretty hard to argue with someone who's seen god, whether real or imaginary.

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Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho

2nd part peoples opinions do change... i didn't read th ebible three times because i wanted to understand what i don't believe in.... i read it becuase ibelieved.... i'm living proof peoples opinions do change... as i grew older and older i believed less and less.... at 16-17 i had one last little fizzle of faith... it died away and i have no regrets... i didn't lose my way (for any christian or believer that decides that's what happened) i opened my eyes... i looked at the world around me and realized something was really fucked up... whatever it may be, IF there is a god, he's definately nothing that's written in the book..

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I agree here, but I'm sure you didn't change your opinion over one piece of information. I could be wrong (hehe) but something like this is a life changing transformation, and it takes a while to happen. I used to be quite religious as a child. Well, not really religious, but I sure loved telling people they'd go to hell if they didn't use the KJV of the Bible. I had no idea why, but hey, I was an impressionable kid listening to my grandma, and i was trying to save lives, that's all I knew.

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Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho

i don't understand why atheist can admit they may be wrong, they just find it highly unlikely they are... but believers "KNOW" they're right and everyone else as wrong...

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Yup, I agree here. *Some* athiests "know" that there's no god, but I don't pay attention to their arguments either.

I think the reason agnostics and atheists have an easier time admitting that they could be wrong, is because it really doesn't make a difference to them. If proof came tomorrow that God was real, it doesn't make a difference to what I've believed in the past, I now know that there's a God, so I can choose to follow or not, no biggie, right? But if a believer is wrong, they've got so much of their life invested into this idea. If tomorrow, proof came about that the spaghetti monster created the universe, believers might call it a test. Any information that threatens their beliefs are generally considered tests, and probably feel obligated to pass these tests, and the way to do that is by still believing.

Another reason could be simply time... It's like some people getting addicted to World of warcraft (or whatever popular MMO game people are playing these days). Some poeple aren't even having fun in the game anymore, but they've already invested so much time into the game, they feel they can't quit.

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Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho

also like someone said... any proof they have to derive their religion from came from 'holy text' if that's proof of the christian god's existence, then it'd also be proof of other religions god such as allah etc.... but will you ever find a christian to acknowledge that? i highly doubt it...

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Yes, but science only gets it's information from.. well, science. It sounds silly, but the fact that science is wrong about things all the time (earth used to be flat) people see that as a reason to dismiss science.

As well, if someone chooses not to use logic and reason as their guiding principles, it becomes very difficult to use something logical or reasonable as you argument.

Alot of the misconceptions in science, were fueled in part by religion. You find, that science has expanded the quickest when it has been able to be completely seperated and unhindered by religion.

Currently, we are falling far behind what we could be at technology wise in the realms of stem cell research, and cloning. Both are issues that those of religion take issue with, and fight against. Now some countries are not as hindered as others, but science is expected to have morals now, which causes havoc amoung science, because whose morals are you expected to follow?

I had a chance once, to meet a Buddhist monk, just outside a monestary in Cali. It was about two weeks after I had gotten out of Boot Camp, so needless to say, after 13 weeks of having no one to really talk with but myself, I was overjoyed to have a chance to speak to someone like that. The monk was, for lack of a better way to describe it, inspirational without being religious at all. He gave me such a feeling that he knew there were many different paths to enlightenment, that he was happy in his, but understood that other people had other paths, and that they might not all lead to the same spot his does. And he was ok with this, at peace with it I suppose you could say. He had told me that he was ok if people didnt have faith in his religion, did not believe what he believed. As long as they were leading good lives, it didnt matter how they were accomplishing it.

Buddhism denies the existance of a God(s). In Buddhism, one becomes the Buddha when they reach enlightenment, nirvana. The Buddha is there to teach, and guide people, and help them reach enlightenment as well. Such is an excellent example, if you wish to look to religion for a counterpoint, of a religion that sees enlightenment as not having anything to do with a God, but merely a personal thing that one reaches.

I will admit that I could be wrong about alot of things, but since it's written in truth and I have substance and evidence to prove it, God is true. There is no middle ground. He either is or is not. And I know for certain that he is. Just because you decided to stop believing in him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Actually, it tells me that you never had faith. I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but once you have obtained "faith", you can not loose him. Faith is a person. If you want me to believe that God doesn't exist, you will have to remove him from my heart. Look at it from my point of view, how can you expect me to believe you when I have substance and proof that he is alive? So just like you accuse the biblical writers, I know for certain that what you're preaching is a LIE. And liars have no part in the Kingdom of God (you should know from reading). You need to follow your own advice and humble yourself to the things that are true. You come to the table without any evidence at all. You guys throw out all these theories and expect them to be accepted as truth. This shit is deep. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be rooted and grounded in truth. I don't share my point of view on here to change others, but rather to defend the kingdom of God. Come Lord Jesus!!!

What makes unbelievers feel that they have more logic than one that puts his/her faith and trust in the LORD?
Sorry folks, this has NOTHING to do with logic.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

People have faith in God because of ignorance and fear. People believe don't believe in God because of logic. Just because we don't know something, does not mean some mystical omnipresence just created everything, and can do everything. And for the people who want to say that I am just avoiding the truth, blah blah blah, no i'm not. If there was a God I would not change how I live. If some mystical being wants to judge me, fuck it. I've had spritual experiences, I have astal projected, I have lucid dreams almost everynight. I have seen what "God" really is to me, and it makes a lot of sense. God is change. Plain and simple. Originally I see God as an idea made to gain mass population control through religion due to our ego's being so huge and being able to figure out we can manipulate weak minded people. I'm not saying religious people are weak minded, i'm just saying I disagree full-heartedly with them.

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

I will admit that I could be wrong about alot of things, but since it's written in truth and I have substance and evidence to prove it, God is true. There is no middle ground. He either is or is not. And I know for certain that he is. Just because you decided to stop believing in him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Actually, it tells me that you never had faith. I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but once you have obtained "faith", you can not loose him. Faith is a person. If you want me to believe that God doesn't exist, you will have to remove him from my heart. Look at it from my point of view, how can you expect me to believe you when I have substance and proof that he is alive? So just like you accuse the biblical writers, I know for certain that what you're preaching is a LIE. And liars have no part in the Kingdom of God (you should know from reading). You need to follow your own advice and humble yourself to the things that are true. You come to the table without any evidence at all. You guys throw out all these theories and expect them to be accepted as truth. This shit is deep. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be rooted and grounded in truth. I don't share my point of view on here to change others, but rather to defend the kingdom of God. Come Lord Jesus!!!

What makes unbelievers feel that they have more logic than one that puts his/her faith and trust in the LORD?
Sorry folks, this has NOTHING to do with logic.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

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See right there, you fail. God tells you not to judge your fellow man, that it is only his job and his right to do. You have just lost your chance to get into heaven.. unless of course you prescribe to the belief that all sins are forgiven if you ask for forgivenes for them.

For all you know, and with just as much proof as you have to prove God(s) existance, God intends for the non-believers to exist, for a reason, that he condones. Perhaps he even has a hand in making them non-believers. You dont know. You have no proof against it, which is the lovely arguement most religious people use. So therefore, in judging those who dont believe, and accusing them of lying, and showing general hate towards your fellow brothers and sisters, you have gone against the very tenants of the god you supposedly believe in and follow.

And if nothing else, how do you explain the sudden disproving of Roman and Greek gods and goddess's, and stating that they dont exist, while at the same exact time claiming that your god does?

Which is it? Whats to say that hundreds of years down the line, people will not look back at your religion and come to the same conclusions that we do now about theirs? What makes yours so different? I promise you thousands of people back then felt the same things as you in regards to their god(s).

The problem some "non believers" have, is not with your belief. Personally, if your belief makes you a better person and lets you live a better life on a whole, then I am happy for you, and hope you continue with whatever it is that is helping you as such. But when you start attacking other peoples form of belief, stating they are wrong, and that your way is the right way, then there is a problem. You are trying to prevent them from doing the same thing that you are being given the right to. You are trying to tell them that their way of finding happiness and bettering themselves is wrong, that they are wrong... but how can a person be wrong when it comes to something such as faith. There is no RIGHT answer in faith, as there is no answer involved anywhere there, in any sense that could be proven correct or incorrect.

You cant expect when you insult other peoples beliefs by telling them that they are wrong, to not recieve the same in kind, maybe with some added in, because they are now angry about being attacked as such. This holds true for believers or non-believers.

Just to clarify. I never judge anyone (soul) cause I don't know which are wheat and which are tares. This will take place at harvest time. I was pointing out that anyone preaching a lie (against the gospel) will not enter into the kingdom of God. As harsh as this sounds, it doesn't come from me. We need to repent and believe the gospel. I'm not casting judgment on anyone. Everyone can make their own choices. So just because someone doesn't believe in God today, doesn't mean that will be their final decision.
We are here pointing others in the right direction. Follow him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life"

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

Just to clarify. I never judge anyone (soul) cause I don't know which are wheat and which are tares. This will take place at harvest time. I was pointing out that anyone preaching a lie (against the gospel) will not enter into the kingdom of God. As harsh as this sounds, it doesn't come from me. We need to repent and believe the gospel. I'm not casting judgment on anyone. Everyone can make their own choices. So just because someone doesn't believe in God today, doesn't mean that will be their final decision.
We are here pointing others in the right direction. Follow him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life"

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That is fine, but why cant one just enjoy the path they have found, without the need to try to "convert" people, which always seems more like what I said before, belittling their belief system and telling them they need to replace it with yours.

Would Jesus and God be happy with someone who lived their lives following much of the same rules and guidelines that they preached to their followers, while having never followed their religion... then to lets say, have someone who follows the religion, but does not follow the rules or live a good life? Why does belief automatically make things better then non-belief. Wouldnt God be ok with it, because we are all his children, and that person was living their life as to how God wished it, even if they didnt give worship to him?

Thats the kind of person as a God you would want in your kingdom to be given eternal reward for their actions. The person who didnt need the fear of God and retribution to cause them to lead a good life. Those people who led a good life without the need of anyone telling them to, or giving them a set of guidelines. They truely are the chosen ones, because their soul was pure and they were able to pass all the tests without even knowing that they were being tested.

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

And I know for certain that he is. Just because you decided to stop believing in him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Actually, it tells me that you never had faith. I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but once you have obtained "faith", you can not loose him. Faith is a person.

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I disagree. Who are you to say "it's impossible to lose faith"? How do you back up this claim? Faith is not evidence, faith is not knowledge, faith is not proof. Faith by definition is the exact opposite of these things, faith is more equivalent to hope than anything. How can you say it's impossible to lose faith? Losing faith is very possible, because i have believed in god, and now I don't. If you're trying to tell me that i didn't believe in god as a child, you're mistaken. I can *prove* that someone can lose faith, keep reading.

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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit

You come to the table without any evidence at all. You guys throw out all these theories and expect them to be accepted as truth. This shit is deep. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be rooted and grounded in truth. I don't share my point of view on here to change others, but rather to defend the kingdom of God. Come Lord Jesus!!!

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"Rooted and grounded in truth" is something I've heard of before. Just because someone is rooted and standing their ground firmer than another, that doesn't make their beliefs *more true*, for lack of better words at this moment.

If we have 3 people A, B and C, and 2 of them, A and B, have been told as children their multiplication tables without an explanation as to how they work. they're just given the table and expected to memorize it. There's a problem with this multiplication table tho, it states that 2x2=5. But since the children don't know how multiplication works, they use the multiplication table without giving a second thought as to whether it could be wrong. C comes along, who has actually learned how multiplication works, and tells them that 2x2=4, and can demonstrate why this is so over and over. B decides that, since he now knows how to multiply, he stops believing that 2x2=5. A takes what his teacher taught him as proof, and he is very rooted and grounded in "the truth".

Now, this story is NOT meant as a comparison of logic and belief, although it is a decent simplification of that as well. This story is meant to show that just because someone is very grounded in their beliefs, and believes it whole heartedly, it doesn't make them right. It also shows that someone can believe and then disbelieve, or "lose faith".