advanced string theory

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Ok, so after all of that.... I made a stament "the Bible is always changing", and what I meant by that was, the Bible obviously can't change, because it's allegedly the word of God, and the alleged word of God is infallible. But when something contradicts the word of God, the meaning instantly changes so that the words still hold ground.

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I see what you're saying. The *actual* meaning does not change... people just change their interpretations of the particular verse in question. And I agree to a certain extent. There are verses that have a range of interpretation... in other words reasonable people can disagree. However, in my opinion, there are also many verses that are sufficiently clear enough to lead the reader to the truth. The way I see it is that the Bible is not the answer to all of life's questions. It is the guidebook to help us find the One who does hold the answers. (That being said, I think it also answer very man questions quite directly.)

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

This verse tells me that nothing is impossible if you are armed with even the smallest faith. I have none, so it's impossible for me to move mountains, but surely a few people on earth must have had enough faith to move a mountain.

Since we can't move mountains on prayer alone, there has to be an excuse as to why the mountains aren't constantly being moved by men of little faith. "You're asking too much", or "The request is too trivial" or something, when in fact the prayer should be regarded as a test in faith.

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Of this particular verse, the way most students of the Bible see it is similar to the way we see the verse where Christ says, "Pray for anything in my name and you will receive it." The number of people who have prayed for a new Ferrari, not gotten it, and then dismissed the entirety of the Bible is probably pretty big! But that isn't at all what Christ was saying if you read the context and try to gain understanding from other Scriptures talking about the same concept. Other verses refer to people not getting what they ask for, because they ask for it for themselves and not for the purpose of glorifying God in their lives and helping others. So, given that, we learn "in my name" probably doesn't mean to simply utter the name of Christ, but it means to ask with Christ's purposes and goals and everything he stood for... to ask with "His Name" in mind and heart. So the meaning does not "change", rather the first interpretation was just wrong, and the second one is the meaning that is supported by other verses so it is probably the right one. Any unbeliever who gets frustrated by that verse is really just frustrated that it takes time, hard work, study, and experience to gain a firm understanding of many Biblical concepts. And that can be frustrating in today's age of "instant gratification".

So, regarding the verse about moving mountains, I don't think the excuses as to why we don't see mountains move all the time are really all that extreme. I mean, number one, Christ is likely making an analogy to some extent, to make a point. He teaches about his practical goals for Christians many times in the Bible, but never says his goal for Christians is to move mountains even though they perhaps could. Just because, "nothing will be impossible," doesn't mean one with that kind of faith would feel led to do everything possible (like moving mountains). For instance, Christ obviously had faith enough to do "supernatural" things. But he didn't waste time moving mountains around for fun or even for "good" purposes. So that in and of itself shows someone with strong enough faith, even though they in theory "can" move mountains, might still not necessarily be led by God to do it.

Or perhaps none of us who believe have even have enough faith to do it... or perhaps the reasons you gave above are the correct interpretations...

You are totally right that there can be multiple interpretations, and I understand how frustrating that can be. But at some point, I just decided to get as much as I can from the Bible by studying it over a long period of time, and leave some questions unanswered. I think anyone is able to come up with a reasonable understanding of God by studying the Bible. I know I feel that I have.

It takes a few things
1) An at least semi-open heart (if you're goal is to just find potential contradictions then you'll find plenty and just throw the whole thing out as a lie)

2) Time. Probably at least a year of reading through it 15-20 minutes a day, preferably with some sort of a study guide.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

I see what you're saying. The *actual* meaning does not change... people just change their interpretations of the particular verse in question. And I agree to a certain extent. There are verses that have a range of interpretation... in other words reasonable people can disagree. However, in my opinion, there are also many verses that are sufficiently clear enough to lead the reader to the truth. The way I see it is that the Bible is not the answer to all of life's questions. It is the guidebook to help us find the One who does hold the answers. (That being said, I think it also answer very man questions quite directly.)

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Here's what I don't get, though. Shouldn't every verse in the Bible be unequivocal about the things that it does speak? I understand that one book can't hold the answer to every question one can ask, but of the questions that it does answer, every answer should be clear and concise.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

Of this particular verse, the way most students of the Bible see it is similar to the way we see the verse where Christ says, "Pray for anything in my name and you will receive it." The number of people who have prayed for a new Ferrari, not gotten it, and then dismissed the entirety of the Bible is probably pretty big! But that isn't at all what Christ was saying if you read the context and try to gain understanding from other Scriptures talking about the same concept. Other verses refer to people not getting what they ask for, because they ask for it for themselves and not for the purpose of glorifying God in their lives and helping others. So, given that, we learn "in my name" probably doesn't mean to simply utter the name of Christ, but it means to ask with Christ's purposes and goals and everything he stood for... to ask with "His Name" in mind and heart. So the meaning does not "change", rather the first interpretation was just wrong, and the second one is the meaning that is supported by other verses so it is probably the right one. Any unbeliever who gets frustrated by that verse is really just frustrated that it takes time, hard work, study, and experience to gain a firm understanding of many Biblical concepts. And that can be frustrating in today's age of "instant gratification".

So, regarding the verse about moving mountains, I don't think the excuses as to why we don't see mountains move all the time are really all that extreme. I mean, number one, Christ is likely making an analogy to some extent, to make a point. He teaches about his practical goals for Christians many times in the Bible, but never says his goal for Christians is to move mountains even though they perhaps could. Just because, "nothing will be impossible," doesn't mean one with that kind of faith would feel led to do everything possible (like moving mountains). For instance, Christ obviously had faith enough to do "supernatural" things. But he didn't waste time moving mountains around for fun or even for "good" purposes. So that in and of itself shows someone with strong enough faith, even though they in theory "can" move mountains, might still not necessarily be led by God to do it.

Or perhaps none of us who believe have even have enough faith to do it... or perhaps the reasons you gave above are the correct interpretations...

You are totally right that there can be multiple interpretations, and I understand how frustrating that can be. But at some point, I just decided to get as much as I can from the Bible by studying it over a long period of time, and leave some questions unanswered. I think anyone is able to come up with a reasonable understanding of God by studying the Bible. I know I feel that I have.

It takes a few things
1) An at least semi-open heart (if you're goal is to just find potential contradictions then you'll find plenty and just throw the whole thing out as a lie)

2) Time. Probably at least a year of reading through it 15-20 minutes a day, preferably with some sort of a study guide.

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I've read the Bible many times in my childhood, and regularly read verses with my grandma and her side of the family, and I thoroughly enjoy it :D

In my mind, and there is also a verse in the Bible that tells me this, is that if any word in the Bible is a lie (or untrue) then the rest should be made so as well. So as soon as I see an inconstancy, I should disregard it. I still read it for reasons other than finding God, but I'm not reading it "just to find those inconsistencies". I read it so that I can share some of my family's time, because the Bible is their life.

What I can't, and I am unwilling to do, is live my life by the Bible when there are certain aspects that just don't make sense to me. Also, unfortunately I question anyone that does, not because I want to attack their faith, or that I believe their stupid, or anything of the sort. I just find it hard to believe that faith in Jesus is the only way into the kingdom.

Jesus really only had two 'commandments', Love thy God and Love thy Neighbour. I've got #2 down pat, but I am unwilling to believe that God would punish me for not believing in Him, and that I should be tortured for eternity because I have either been given, or acquired a mind that doesn't allow me to comprehend His words as truth. It doesn't seem fair to me, and because of this unfairness, I cannot and will not believe.

If God came to me and told me that His word was true, and even personally gave me a Bible with His autograph, I'd be very disheartened, because I know that i can't save everyone, and no matter how good they are, they're going to be tortured for eternity, just because I know something that they don't.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

of the questions that it does answer, every answer should be clear and concise.

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God has reasons for leaving some things vague. Sometimes it is to actually confuse people who have rejected Him permanently anyway... think of it as the beginning of their punishment. Jesus even told the disciples he spoke in sometimes confusing parables so that only those who were seeking after Him would understand. Sometimes it is simply to make us dig deeper to learn more about Him and come to rely on Him more. It could be any number of reasons really. But I understand how it can be frustrating. I've been confused by some verses and believed wrong on some pretty important things before... and I just have to trust God had a reason for letting me be confused for a while.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

I just find it hard to believe that faith in Jesus is the only way into the kingdom... but I am unwilling to believe that God would punish me for not believing in Him, and that I should be tortured for eternity because I have either been given, or acquired a mind that doesn't allow me to comprehend His words as truth. It doesn't seem fair to me, and because of this unfairness, I cannot and will not believe.

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I don't believe that those who reject faith in God are eternally tortured. Some Christians believe Hell will come to the end, and that those in it will cease to exist. I tend toward that belief. I believe God will punish them and, unless they have faith in Christ which leads them to follow His commandments, they will not have eternal life. They will suffer punishment in hell, and then cease to exist... what I refer to as eternal death. I can see why some people think hell will last for an eternity, but there are verses in which "forever" simply means for a lifetime. For instance, Duet. chapter 15 says, "He shall be your servant forever," of a servant who simply would serve you for the rest of his life.

I don't think it is unfair for God to punish someone who refuses to love God and God's ways. He created them after all! How could anyone say that is not fair? It would be ridiculous. If he really did create them, then God is fair in punishing them and removing them from his presence if they refuse to follow His rules. And they wouldn't be happy with God in eternal life anyway, since they hate His ways. So why should he make them suffer with Him and His ways forever?

As far as Christ being the only way to heaven, He definitely taught that. There is no getting around that. The only thing I can do is trust that He knows what He is doing. The Bible does teach that He is gathering all who will believe to Himself. I just trust that He is doing that. I went to Iran on a mission trip with a couple of my believer friends once, just to talk to people and exchange religious thoughts. An Iranian man told me that Christ came to his great-grandfather in a dream, and that his whole family has been Christian since that time (and I shit you not, no missionaries had ever been to his area of the country). After hearing that, I have no doubt that Christ, even though He is the only way to the Father, can reach whomever he wants whenever he wants and present them with the Truth, giving them the choice of whether or not to follow Him.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

This in particular doesn't come from the mind alone, this comes from the fact that these people dedicate their entire lives to performing these feats, and in all the tests I've ever seen, no one over punches the monks in the face or pokes them in the eye, because that's not what they have trained their entire lives to defend against.

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I think you're missing the point of what I was saying my good fellow. The TaiChi masters aren't immune or unmoved by punches, the whole point is exactly what you were saying, that they trained their whole lives. It is by training a certain aspect of the mind or body that it can become more powerful than would normally be possible. There's more to being unmoved by 5 men, or standing on a finger, than just strength; there's a certain understanding through training of how to manipulate energy to ones advantage. That's kinetic energy btw, not mystical floaty energy that the Jedi strangle people with ;)

Wait wait, now I'm misrepresenting the Jedi, bad analogy. Lets use reiki energy as a comparrison instead.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

God has reasons for leaving some things vague. Sometimes it is to actually confuse people who have rejected Him permanently anyway... think of it as the beginning of their punishment. Jesus even told the disciples he spoke in sometimes confusing parables so that only those who were seeking after Him would understand. Sometimes it is simply to make us dig deeper to learn more about Him and come to rely on Him more. It could be any number of reasons really. But I understand how it can be frustrating. I've been confused by some verses and believed wrong on some pretty important things before... and I just have to trust God had a reason for letting me be confused for a while.

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If I had genuine concern for all the people on earth, I'd make sure that people understood exactly what I was saying, I wouldn't try to confuse anybody. Christ and myself seem to have very different ways of thinking. We both are very loving, but if I had a secret that would allow for the salvation of mankind, I don't see why I would talk in riddles. I'd also question the motives of the person who is deliberately confusing.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

I don't believe that those who reject faith in God are eternally tortured. Some Christians believe Hell will come to the end, and that those in it will cease to exist. I tend toward that belief. I believe God will punish them and, unless they have faith in Christ which leads them to follow His commandments, they will not have eternal life. They will suffer punishment in hell, and then cease to exist... what I refer to as eternal death. I can see why some people think hell will last for an eternity, but there are verses in which "forever" simply means for a lifetime. For instance, Duet. chapter 15 says, "He shall be your servant forever," of a servant who simply would serve you for the rest of his life.

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Even that punishment seems harsh and unfair, see further for why.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

I don't think it is unfair for God to punish someone who refuses to love God and God's ways. He created them after all! How could anyone say that is not fair? It would be ridiculous. If he really did create them, then God is fair in punishing them and removing them from his presence if they refuse to follow His rules. And they wouldn't be happy with God in eternal life anyway, since they hate His ways. So why should he make them suffer with Him and His ways forever?

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I have a somewhat sadistic proposal of parents leaving a huge tablet on the fridge for their children to read. After 18 years, the children are either punished or "forgiven" depending on what they've done, but they are given no proof that the tablet is "real", nor have they ever talked to the maker of this tablet. If they break the rules on the tablet, they are not immediately punished, and when they succeed in following the rules, they are given no immediate rewards.

The parents have set up a torture device for the disobedient, and something fun for the obedient. Even if the disobedient was a decent person, and didn't believe in the tablet (one of the requirements) that child is tortured for the rest of their life. The parents feel justified in doing this because they created the child.

Yeah, it's a sadistic example but if does quite sum up the way I feel. Just because I don't believe in His word, if his word is true, I'll be tortured. I don't get to heaven, nor would I want to, as heaven would be very constricting to my nature. The only alternative is hell, and because Christ doesn't allow me into heaven, since I wouldn't want that anyways, the only other place to go is Hell. That doesn't seem fair either. I question the very nature of these rules, and I believe that I am doing so with good reason.

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Originally Posted by jsn9333

As far as Christ being the only way to heaven, He definitely taught that. There is no getting around that. The only thing I can do is trust that He knows what He is doing. The Bible does teach that He is gathering all who will believe to Himself. I just trust that He is doing that. I went to Iran on a mission trip with a couple of my believer friends once, just to talk to people and exchange religious thoughts. An Iranian man told me that Christ came to his great-grandfather in a dream, and that his whole family has been Christian since that time (and I shit you not, no missionaries had ever been to his area of the country). After hearing that, I have no doubt that Christ, even though He is the only way to the Father, can reach whomever he wants whenever he wants and present them with the Truth, giving them the choice of whether or not to follow Him.

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You say the only thing you can do is trust, the only thing i can find myself to do is question. Why? If you were to say that heaven is a gift, that I can understand. It's his gift to do with as He pleases, and if believing in Him and following his word is the way to accept the gift, that works. But you don't punish someone you love for not accepting their gift with torture, not matter how brief or how lengthly the torture.

"here's a bracelet, because I love you"
"aww thanks, you shouldn't have, but I'm allergic to gold, and I can't accept your gift"
*SMACK*

Again, I have a mind, whether given to me, or through acquiring, that does not allow me to just accept this word as truth. I don't feel as if I should be punished for doing so, and have trouble believing that an all knowing all powerful being would use such rationale.

I say this without ill will or malice, but such a divine being seems petty to me. I am a person that needs to know the logic behind the rules. I don't consider myself to be a bad person, even tho I'm a marijuana smoker. I give that law no rule over me, because I disagree with the fundamental principles behind it. If I am caught breaking this rule, I will be punished. But the government isn't an all powerful, all knowing being, it's simply there to take my money. I hold an all powerful, all knowing creator of the universe to a higher standard than the government. Why does He need my faith so desperately that if he doesn't get it he will punish me for it?

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Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey

I think you're missing the point of what I was saying my good fellow. The TaiChi masters aren't immune or unmoved by punches, the whole point is exactly what you were saying, that they trained their whole lives. It is by training a certain aspect of the mind or body that it can become more powerful than would normally be possible. There's more to being unmoved by 5 men, or standing on a finger, than just strength; there's a certain understanding through training of how to manipulate energy to ones advantage. That's kinetic energy btw, not mystical floaty energy that the Jedi strangle people with ;)

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:) I'd love to see the "unmovable man" demonstration. I'm very into mixed martial arts myself, and I find it difficult to believe that no one could move him. You think someone would just pick him up.

Standing on a finger would be a combination of technique, strength, practise and perseverance. If this is what you mean by "the mind can become more powerful" then yes, I subscribe to that theory. I don't subscribe to a theory that would have someone do the physically impossible. If someone trained their entire life to fly by flapping their arms, they'd have to make some drastic physical modifications to themselves and develop MAD endurance to pull it off. It wouldn't be "just" the thought that's doing it, it's all the training they put in.

Hawkings is over rated. Just because he defied illness and disabilty with such commendable adroitness doesn't make the man a genius. Fritjof Capra has some far more progressive and interesting ideas, I reccommend any of his books, especially The Web of Life.

There was a great special on PBS about it. Its an interesting theory.

But I want you guys to think about somthing.

What we define as science, as pure "fact", is constantly changing. Just because our model of the world (that it is composed of countless tiny protons, neutrons, and electrons) seems like fact, the human race will have a totally different perspective on it thousands of years from now. Just as we did thousands of years ago. In actuality, we are only scratching the surface of the secrets that make up our universe. As technology and the human race evolve, we will see the world a whole different way. The "laws" that supposedly govern our universe will be obsolete.

Assuming we dont blow ourselves up before then. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

:) I'd love to see the "unmovable man" demonstration. I'm very into mixed martial arts myself, and I find it difficult to believe that no one could move him. You think someone would just pick him up.

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I've watched a few demonstrations actually, it was some impressive stuff. I'm not saying though, that he literally can't be moved by any means. I'm just talking about getting 5 guys to try and push him to make him take one step from his spot, which they couldn't.

That's cool you're into mixed martial arts btw, I was really into Judo and Aikido myself before I messed up my spine and had to quit. Which martial arts do you specialize in?

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Standing on a finger would be a combination of technique, strength, practise and perseverance. If this is what you mean by "the mind can become more powerful" then yes, I subscribe to that theory. I don't subscribe to a theory that would have someone do the physically impossible. If someone trained their entire life to fly by flapping their arms, they'd have to make some drastic physical modifications to themselves and develop MAD endurance to pull it off. It wouldn't be "just" the thought that's doing it, it's all the training they put in.

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Yep, you pretty much understand what I mean now. Indeed nobody can train hard and long enough and jump 100 feet into the air, or in your example flap their arms to fly. What I'm talking about is accomplishing normal human feats, to far abnormal degrees. Do you ever watch Chris Angel on Mindfreak? He does some of the physical stuff I'm talking about, like him being a 160 lb man picking up that taxi, or having a truck run over him.... lol, I'm not sure how he walked down the side of that building since he stepped off it and walked away.



BTW, why did somebody give me bad rep on my first post with a comment of "good post":wtf: