I got my new LED box finished today, it's fuckin awesome. I'll be moving the girls into their new home after their dark cycle is over. I should have some valid test results for you guys in the coming days/weeks. ;)
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I got my new LED box finished today, it's fuckin awesome. I'll be moving the girls into their new home after their dark cycle is over. I should have some valid test results for you guys in the coming days/weeks. ;)
...
MonkeyRacket,
Nice setup, can't wait to see how they come out.
BTW: For those building their own, here is a useful link I found.
http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz
Quote:
Originally Posted by ledgrower
What about the blues? Are they ok?
PJF: Your angle pread is too wide on those LEDs. I think you should be using a narrower angle for most of those lights around 15º should be okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRacket
Now I can say::: I love you.
Thanks for the pics.
I was told that as long as the mcd rating is high at high angle, they are MORE powerful than a 15 angle.Quote:
Originally Posted by FERMENTATION
Example.
660nm, 4000mcd 15 degree angle.
660nm, 4000mcd, 100 degree angle.
This means that I am still getting 4000mcd spread further across the plants. Not in that narrow angle, so in theory those light a more than 4x stronger.
PearlJam kicks ass! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlJamFan
OK, I apologize...don't think I ever read this...still haven't, but I am going to. I breezed through 1st page and don't know where this is going...so, here goes.
Turtle...I want a bigass one with blue and red/full spectrum and I want a green one so I can go play in my room during the 'dark' photoperiod.
Once I read the thread, this request will probably be moot...
gotta go, bro, lw
Lumens = Candelas*2pi*[1â??cos(theta)]Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlJamFan
That makes it 0.85 vs. 29.5 lumens... about 30 times better.
Are plants really that straight forward? I mean, do two kinds of frequencies cover all the plants needs for every single kind of plant?
Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose101
Cannabis plants.... we're experiementing.
Maybe they'll grow fine... :)
Good info in this artice I believe.
http://ncr101.montana.edu/Light1994C...ula%20text.htm
All of it is interesting, but specifically scroll down to the "Pulsed Lighting" section. Basically, applied light was pulsed at about 6.7kHz, with duty cycles of 1%, 5%, 10%, and the constant 100%. They were all done with the same time-integrated photon flux (ie. the 1% had 100x higher intensity than the 100% one).
Result: for tomato plants, they all gave about the same photosynthetic response. So to match a constant-on LED source, you'd need to be able to drive the peak output 1/(duty cycle) times higher. Seems like one would be better off forgetting about pulsing, and overdriving their LED array as much as their thermal dissipation allows.
thoughts:
*might be different for cannabis vs. tomato leaves
*might get different results pulsing a broader range of wavelengths
*duty cycles might have greater effect if pulsed at lower frequencies. I didn't find anything about constant duty cycle over a range of frequencies, aside from:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5012609.html
"It has been experimentally demonstrated that when light flashes of 100 microseconds duration follow each other too quickly, the light is not fully utilized (B. Kok. 1956. Photosynthesis in flashing light. Biochim. et Biophys. Acta, 21:245-258.). Extending the time of the dark period to about 20 milliseconds increased the relative "yield" per flash of light."
I don't know why they used 100us pulses, but here they're suggesting about 0.5% duty cycle at 50Hz as being optimal, with no mention of light intensity affecting photosynthesis. If it's true that the plant sees this case as the same as DC (when both have equal peak outputs), then this would give lots of room to overdrive the LEDs for great gains. But if it still requires equal integrated outputs, then it's not really worth it (100x intensity requires much more than 100x current since relationship gets non-linear at currents ~>100mA, with baseline around 20mA). This is probably something that needs to be found out to get the most out of LEDs.
The concept of pulsing light to maximize photosyntesis action is very interesting and promising, but all the studies ive seen performed about concluded that the grow rate is directly dependent of total irradiance. I think a lot of experiments are needed to find a correct pulsing cycle wich achive same growth with less total irradiance.
BTW, i think we miss the main cuestion when talking about growing with leds: whats the adecuate irradiance?
All the experiments ive seen of growing with leds was a bit disappointed at final results. Some parameter fails in order to achieve a correct bloomery. Maybe lacking of far red spectrum (730nm), wich is esential for long day flowering plants and of undetermined effect in short day flowering plants (lika cannabis) or maybe, and i think more probable, insuficient photons density.
For HPS spectrums, we know about 250-350 micromols of photons per second (uE) per sq meter is needed, and about 600-700 uE/m2 for good budding. The experiments ive seen dont double the flux density in bloomery stage, resulting in bad budding, although is enough for vegetative growth.
Comparing with the HPS spectrum and caracteristics, we can reduce the flux requeriments for growing with leds, in about a 25% by best absorbance (of red and blue part of spectrum against the yellow-orange dominated HPS spectrum), another cumulative 25% by higher photosyntesis action (depending of leds spectrum, from 15 to 35%, but not 300 or 400% like many comercial and interested leds applications say) and another 25% comparing with reflectored HID (more usual, and for that standard configuration i stated the 650uE/m2 goal), because leds are directionals, and dont need reflectors (and the light loss implied, about 25% average).
So, result in 0,75%^3=42% of HPS initial flux to achive similar results.
650uE/m2 *42%=275uE/m2
This works fine for red light, but blue light has less photosyntetic action, but is needed if we want a healthy growth, a minimun of 30uE/m2 of blue light, better 40uE. So, including this factor, about 300uE/m2 of led light seems an adecuate irradiance.
And how many watts of leds we need to achieve that irradiance?. It depends of leds efficency, the other issue ussually forgotten when talking about growing with leds.
There is a lot of misconception about this issue. Frecuently, i read that led light are the most efficient, and its a false statement. Probably it would be so in some years, but now, leds have a similar efficiency than halogens, very far of HID lights.
High watage HPS (600w or more) are about 38% (including ballast loses) efficients converting input power into PAR light.
Leds efficiency are very variable, but is very usual find devices with less than 10%, specially the cheap ones. If we go to the best leds, they are at 25% in blue and 30-35% in red, with good thermal design.
So its very important to know what flux emitts the leds we are going to use, in order to obtain conclusions. If we want to use less watts than growing with HPSs, is esential use high efficiency leds, at less 25% wall plug efficiency. I think too many people is missing this question.
Curiosity, kNNa,
DAMN interesting info... I saved it to my computer... cause I have no time to read it now... I hope I can comment on it soon.
Very good to have some brainiacs running around...
I seen the webpage at http://www.solaroasis.com/
Am I being dumb or wouldn't it make more sense to suspend the lighting from fixture that can be molded into any form so that you may have invidiual systems for each leaf?
I'm a bit confused when you mention percentages. I think I'm missing something here. First of all, are we calling light a ray or a wave? Let me get this straight. Each bulb pulses a length of light in frequencies equal to that of the bulb type? That makes it a ray? The light is three dimentional right? Where is the width and height? If you are give a plant 90% red spectrum, what is the actual amount you are giving it?
err, nm. I just realized how dumb that was. I just figured it out. It's a wave length, meaning it's a wave not a ray. The percentage is of the multiple bulbs? That still doesn't really answer it though. I mean if you had 500 bulbs and 90% were red that would be a solid amount. But that isn't something that scales well. I mean 5000 bulbs of 90% red would mean a lot more red.
Led lighting is different to any previous kind of lighting, and if we want to maximize its advantages, we must change our way of thinking about light. Leds dont need to work in bulb shape, in fact, its a very bad idea because thermal considerations, especially important for red leds, wich are very temperature sensitive.
We can put the leds arrays very close to plants and between them, because leds dont give heat enough to damage plants and dont radiate IR and UV (if we dont want to). Using led's reflectored bulbs dont make any sense in horticultural applications. Leds bulbs useful life is below 15000h, because quick degradation due to heat.
Hanging leds strings between plants is the way to go, and use medium-low power leds well spaced, in the way there isnt need of cooling. In this way, the led's low intensity isnt a problem.
When I mention efficiency percentages, it refer at % of light emitted (in watts) of total input power (for horticultural applications, PAR light (400-700nm) is counted). Its very difficult compute leds efficiency, because it depends of ambient temperature, thermal resistance (and how dense are the leds packed) and at what current the led is runned, talking about the same led. And differences between leds are very, very large.
alrit guys im back...i have been on traveling for like a month or soo....as an update..the local hydro shop is doin testing of led grow bars ...solaroasais..the ones the guy has a box made from...
as of rit now..there showing great progress with the cloning...for example..cloneing rosimary in 5 days with 2 inch roots... this is pretty much unheard of....now there moving on to product testing of an 8 bar aray system that is being shined on over tomatoes and small potted herbs...
You can use anything for the veg stage, including LED's.
I have yet to see anything worthwile come out of flowering with anything other than HPS. The possible exception might be flouros, but a shitload of them instead of one.
Because I have not seen it does not mean that it can't happen (are triple negatives OK?). I have a feeling that you could equal the yield produced by one 600 watt bulb with several thousand LED's. I haven't done the math but there is a formula to figure this out. How much would this cost? Much more I am sure than 1 HPS bulb and the additional ventalation necessary. How long until the LED's would pay for themselves? The cost to power thousands of LED's - would that be similar to the cost to power one 600 watt bulb? And if it is less, how long until it pays for itself in electricity.
And do you have to replace them? HPS bulbs need replacing every year or so due to decrease in intensity. My guess is that LED's last much longer. I Think the real cost we are talking about is the electricity to power HPS and it's ventalation.
I am pulling for LED's. I hope some day they will be economically viable. Right now they are way too expensive for flowering.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
440s and 460s...lookin good monkey the best thing is , is that thats only burns 36 wats of power.... keep it up. u could also ad a small uv light in there if u have the space..that would give it even more of an edge to pick up some of the differnt spectrums that the leds dont have....even though they are shining the best ones plant uses...theres still some smaller ones that u could shine. a full spectrum bulb would cover all that..
The goal here is to use only LED's through flowering. Let's not add other lights. If we do, there's no way to tell for sure how well LED's work.
At least that's what I would like to see, but then it's your experiment. There has been many flowerings using LED's plus other lights. I have yet to see a flowering using only LED's. I think this is probably because you would have to buy thousands of them to get any kind of yield. Please prove me wrong.
I was looking for a way to build one of these suckers. Found a nice website. http://www.superbrightleds.com/led_info.htm. Would be even better if there was a complete guide on here. One that would take the latest in LEDs into concideration. It's still something I don't understand. Think I might have to read up on electrical engineering just to understand this stuff. Worth a shot. Here are two other websites, http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/ledleft.htm, http://members.misty.com/don/ledx.html.
It seems easier to go rob the red traffic lights. But I don't wanna attract any unwanted attention. Me wonders if there would be any complications in removing them. Aside from the car crash every now and then. Calgary drivers are not so bright.
I would guess it's best to aim for the highest lumen count. Or does it not matter in LEDs? And whats with the 1 watt leds, would they be a better buy?
I think I might build myself red and white flashlights just to have around for camping an stuff. Red light might be good to have in gorilla growing.
Opie Yutts: I agree with u, today isnt profitable substitute 600w HPS lamp for leds. Probably in 2-3 years.
But leds setups need far less ventilation than HPS ones, if u design the leds arrays in a way wich convection cooling will be enough. This mean not compacted arrays.
Where leds can be now a good choice is for microgrowers. CFLs and small HID lamps are a lot less efficient than 600w HPSs. Using 30% efficients leds at a reasonable price, wich can be found, in about 3-4 years they paid themselves in energy savings against a 250w or smaller HPSs (i did this calculation for my country, Spain, where we are thinking about a leds group buy).Good leds mounted correctly will have a useful life of 30000h, up to 60000h (not white ones, or led bulbs, or cheap 5mm leds)
Today the weak part of a led grow system is the blue part of the spectrum. Blue leds are still too inefficients and expensive. Valid for experimental purposes, but not for energy savings. Now, for small and microgrowers, the profitable way is combining fluo light (for blue and a bit of the others, ensuring no lackings of certain wavelenghts) and red leds.
When talking about leds, is a trade off between initial cost and energy savings.Quote:
I would guess it's best to aim for the highest lumen count. Or does it not matter in LEDs? And whats with the 1 watt leds, would they be a better buy?
I think I might build myself red and white flashlights just to have around for camping an stuff. Red light might be good to have in gorilla growing.]
High power leds are cheaper in terms of output mW/$ and in mounting cost, but they are less efficient than medium and low power ones. Lumileds Luxeon III (or the new K2) have a very good initial price, but they are too inefficients at specs currents, and you may need to use more led watts, with less energy savings. A good compromise is run them below specs current, increasing efficiency and ensuring no heat problems (for leds themselves, not for plants), and avoiding active cooling.
Probably the best relationship between initial cost/efficiency (energy savings) can be found in superflux (piranha) leds, runned at 50mA. And they can be founded in all wavelenghts, while high power leds are usually in the range of 630-635nm peak wavelenghts, valid but less effective than longer wl. In the near future, probably the high power leds achieve enough efficiency and good price to be the best option, but not today.
Could have sworn I read somewhere that you need 7% of your total grow lights to be blue, anymore wouldn't do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by knna
BTW, I haven't seen any experiments that match the wattage yet. Would be cool to see what 600 watts of led can do to a plant. Look at this experiment, http://www.ledgrowlights.com/univers...nn%20study.PDF
Another question: would it make sense to put a larger viewing angle in the middle and then decrease it on the outside. Lets say I create a circular bulb. Use 45° in the center, 30° halfway between the center and outside, then switch to 15° on the outside.
Yes, ive seen some studies (none specifically about cannabis) wich concludes that a minimun of 6% of micromols of photons blues is enough for some plants species. And, in general, between 6% and 12%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose101
Other studies concludes that the blue requeriments are absolute, rather than a percentage of total. Usually, a minimun of 30uE of blue light per sq meter for healthy grow, and about 40uE for healthy growth with short internodal spaces (the difference between a generic 400wHPS lamp in one sq meter against an enhanced blue 400w HPS bulb; with the diference between leds and HPSs consisting in a HPS blue emision near 500nm, very less effective than a 450nm blue led).
The problem is only see the 6% figure. It refers to percentage of total micromols of photons per second (uE), not a emitted watt percentage. Blue photons carry a lot more energy than reds, so a 6% of uE means near 20% of emitted watts, and like blue leds are more inefficients, problably means near 35 or 40% of the total installed led watts.
Probably the way to go is having blue arrays wich emitts 40uE/m2, and go adding more and more red light as plants grow, anf forgot the % of blue light.
I think is a good idea when using circular bulbs. But i prefer a different aproach, consisting in slim linear strips distributed along all the grow space, thinking in 3D, and seeking for a even flux distribution over the whole plant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose101
That sounds like a better idea. But isn't there some kind of ineffiency in the wire and current if it gets too long? I'm no expert, heck I don't even know if I'm saying this right.
Resistive losses in the wire will be negligible unless you're stringing your arrays rediculously. If you manage to make it noticeable, all you'd have to do is slightly lower that chain's resistor's value.
knna: good info on specific numbers. This should be helpful to anyone who is serious about this.
dunno if this has already been linked
http://www.ledgrowlights.com/index.htm
it could work - but I'm sure the fuckers would have to be VERY close to the plants - I'm all for it though
I love LED
ah...... the photon light raver days
dig this shit up.. so anyone trying this.. i only read the posts thru october :-p
So fluorescent is better for blue light then? I still want my red leds though. Any suggestions on which brand of fluorescent to get? I think I can pick up a few red traffic lights from somewhere.
Yes, at actual led's state of art, blue light from floros are cheaper and more efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose101
Any high color temp (K) triphosphor is valid. 6000-6500K works fine. You can choose a actinic tube, too, but they are expensive. Any brand is useful, but i like Phillips 865 floro tubes especially: long life and very good spectrum (high peak at 440nm, good emision in all the blue range and a red emision about 15nm longer than others brand spectrums).
BTW, im in contact with some leds manufactures. One offer me manufacture a high power (1W) led running at 660nm and with a 30% optical efficiency. I compute they equal near 2w of a 600w HPS (and near 3w of lower watts HPS and CFLs).
But they ask me an advanced payment and a large order. Too much for just me, but id consider it if other people are interested in some. People interested, please PM me.
I must compute definitive cost (customs, freight charge, etc), but the price would be about 2,5-3â?¬/W.
^^^
Tell them, to build you a prototype.
If all goes well, you'll buy in bulk.
Advanced payment?
Nope. 1/3 payment when half is done.
1/3 payment when the unit is received.
1/3 payment when you're satisfied with the prototype.
Trust me man... I do wierd international business regulary... you're going to get fucked up the ass if you send them advanced payment.
As to a large order... hahaha!
Dude, they're trying to offload their surplus on you.
Also tell them to "fuck you". No large orders... prototype first.
What you going to do with shitloads of badly design bulbs? When they have your money?
Be smart man... be smart.
INTERESTIN! :D
Thanks a lot for your reply, Turtle420.
Im actually aware of this kind of suppliers. Im trying to comfirm its experience and reputation before any advanced payment.
I asked for samples before, and they agree. And a initial order of some hundreds, and they agree too.
They ask 30% in advance T/T, and rest before shipping. I agree with 30% in advance, but demand and escrow service for the 70% left. They agree. Im seeking for a preship inspection, too.
But im very concerned about a fraud. So any advise are welcome. What else can i do? (you can answer by PM, to keep clear the thread)
Thank you very much, Turtle
Hey dude... when you says "hundreds"... for surely you must mean "hundreds of LED bulbs..."... right?Quote:
Originally Posted by knna
Not "hundreds of LED bulb assemblies"?
If it's individual LEDs... that sounds... 'bout good.
Assembled...? Nah... can't be assembled.
Hey man, Kudos for getting them to accept the 70% escrow.
I don't want to bitch, but it's been my experience that money will make people do son-of-a-bitch things.
As to the escrow... you might want to try GetAFreelancer.com... they've got an escrow service... problem is, they'll get a X percent of the project cost... and you'll have to disclose what you're doing on the Freelancer.... and you don't want to tie your real name/address to cannabis stuff....
Nothing... I'm sure a google search would come up with various escrow services.
Keep us updated man... sounds good. :)
I refer to some hundreds of leds alone (mounted in a star, like luxeons). For me, this is my best goal achieved in the negociation. But, at same time, it did all my fraud alarms sound. All manufactures i contacted previously demand at least 10000MOQ. This one, only demands higher price for lower cuantity, but not a minimun order.
I think its rare, start a line production dont worth for so small cuantity. They say the arent producing the product currently, but made it with an 30% advanced payment, but at same time they said they can send me the samples in 10 days. All this seems very suspicious to me. But if i receive the samples and they are ok, the order still be of a cuantity (600-700USD) that may hurt, but dont do me a poor man. In the other hand, when i request escrow payment, they dont say not, but ignore the question, without any question. Knowing chinese suppliers, im afraid when time to contract, they will put objections.
My other concern is they will not be capable of doing the leds as they say that can do it. I must test the samples carefully, but i only have the equipment for electrical parameter testing, not for optical testing. Hire a spectroradiometer must be expensive, but if the leds have the perfomance they say, it worth the cost.
First, im asking for deep technical details. If it satisfies me, probably ill asume the risk. But im going to do all step by step, i havent any hurry at all. I think it may be a good deal, but i dont believe it until i have the leds working as offered.
Ill keep you informed.