Weezard doesn't that clawing look like nitrogen toxicity to you?
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Weezard doesn't that clawing look like nitrogen toxicity to you?
WHAT DO I DO....this is one of those moments i want to be told exactly what to do...hand needs to be held through this one and are they early enough along that this wont drastically effect outcome? or have i fucked up beyond repair...these are the specifics needing answering.
If I knew exactly what to do, I'd tell you in a new york second.
But, I'm just guessing here, without first hand experience, I can not give solid advice.
And actually, I'm not your go-to guy for repairs.
For arcane information, and research, I'm useful, but you need a real grower for serious problems.
Everyone is a good grower until something bad happens.
That's when ya separate the men from the me.
Standard troubleshooting procedure says, undo the last thing that you did.
As to how?
Well, I'd have to look that up.
Might take quite a while.
Most of the old timers here can advise you much mo' betta.
So, document, as clearly as you can, the steps that got you to this point.
Then, ask Dutch, n Polish n Chromophore, n everybody else.
Meanwhile, try to relax, brah, no get mad, get busy.
Read this while you wait:
Text
Aloha and good luck,
Weeze
here is what happened...went out of town...watered them with plain tap water and was gone 4 nights....for the three plants total...i only use about a gallon of water every other day...this is my watering cycle...but being gone for the 4 days on plant started to show signs of needing water...so instead of mixing up one gallon batch of nute'd water i did TWO gallons...followed the same measuring requirements too....i watered the three plants with the one gallon, and then watered the three again with the second, and had very little run off...went to bed, thinkin im a good parent...woke up to a train wreck...oddly enough my little wierd growing plant from the begining is the only one not showing any signs of stress or burn or anything...why would this be when all three got equally the same dosage...ive got fox farms sledgehammer that will be used tommorrow...i flushed the two plants with twice the amoutn of water the pots hold (ie 3 gallon smart pot got 6 gallons of water to flush it)
weez thanks for the read on it now...
can my old heads chime in here? as weez says the real growers (hes def a real grower FYI man knows his shit)
I would defer to Weezard every time, but I'll give you my best take. Based entirely on what you have said, I can't see how this could be simply related to this recent watering schedule. From the photos it appears at first glance to be nitrogen toxicity, which results from severe over-feeding with High N fertilizer, especially over a period of time. But the bronzy scarring developing in the spaces between veins looks like either some kind of nutrient deficiency, another form of toxicity, or mite damage. You claim no mites, so I'm going with a real fundamental screw-up in nutrient availability. Erratic watering can cause stress, but this seems like more than that. I would avoid doing anything drastic right away. You don't want to compound the problem by adding another stress if you don't know if you're addressing the correct problem. Running clean water through them for the next few waterings sure can't hurt, and it may help flush out whatever imbalance may be present. Think carefully about how you mix up your mater/nutes. Is it possible you are formulating improperly? Are you feeding on successive waterings rather than alternating with plain water?
In my experience with indoor horticulture, the main source of problems for people stem from either over-watering, erratic conditions, or over-feeding. I find that in the Cannabis growing community there is a near religious zeal to feed, feed, feed. Plants are damn good at utilizing the nutes in the medium, even when it's not ideal. I always err on the side of less fertilizer, especially nitrogen. If your water and soil are out of the 5.5-7 range you will develop things like this also. Its a pain but you need to monitor those things CONTINUOUSLY. As Weezard says, you're a great grower until something goes wrong, then you're only as good as the records you keep, because that's the only way you can solve the puzzle accurately. There are many many variables at work so the more you can account for, the better. Post more pics of the leaves if you can. I'd like to see more examples. Don't worry, we'll figure it out.:jointsmile:
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this is my "down syndrome" plant that has gotten the same feeding as all the others...but doesnt show any stress really...
sorry for the post frenzy today...been a stressful day today....with this and my wife...its like normandy beach right now (she's in heat) lol she would literally castrate me if she knew i said that about her. love ya babe:thumbsup:
chromorph-i have been keeping water right about 6.1-6.3 and switching feeding them nutrients every other watering....i dont think i deviated from the schedule, but could be very possible....going out of town for a few days kinda throws a wrench in the morning ritual of waking up peeing then tending my ladies (no not the wife she gets "tended" regularly and i dont seem to fuck that one up) has any one else done this? just royal fucked up mid way and they came back? so much for focusing on maintaining a healthy crop this go around...
Nobodys mentioned what happens when nutes hit dry roots..........
Ah, good. more pics. Man I will tell you those pics you just posted on the previous page look like nutrient burn to me. These girls above look good, but very green and perhaps a touch over-fed. I have a book called Marijuana Garden Saver by J.C. Stitch (edited by Ed Rosenthal). It is a small encyclopedia of plant problems with lots of pictures. You may want to get a copy.
what happens?Quote:
Originally Posted by catbuds
Nutes applied to DRY soil, instant burn to the delicate root hairs. You know, the ones who do the work, like taking up water & nutes. Always moisten the soil a little before applying nutes.
Related to catbud's warning is the fact that when you let the medium dry out thoroughly, you must be careful to water very slowly the next time you do. When most potting soils dry out, it takes a bit of time for the new water to saturate the entire 3-dimensional space of the soil. The water will take the path of least resistance, and that is often a channel or the sides of the pot. Sou you end up with unevenly dispersed water in the soil, and nutrients concentrated in relatively small areas. Whenever the medium gets really really dry, water by adding a little at a time, and waiting a few minutes before adding more. Add more to the center first, and then more to the perimeter of the pot as you go. Adding water a bit at a time lets the moisture reach through the medium by capillary action, and if you're patient it will eventually saturate the contents of the pot completely. Then you can water with a few bigger doses until it flows through the bottom more like a seep, rather than a trickle or stream. Then you know you have "re-wetted" the soil, and you will now avoid these kinds of "hot spots" and uneven moisture distribution.
wow....i never would of thought of that..i feel retarded...guess you gotta screw up to figure it out.....cat whats your take on their survival...since this morning and the flush...they do seem to have uncurled a smidge but not huge...thinking of germ'ing some new ones here next week if these dont look to greatQuote:
Originally Posted by catbuds
well my young ways are showing again....damn....literally my problem in life too lol i rush all the time...thank you for your help lady and gents....i will keep everyone posted.
They'll survive, but catch pots will help you. When you water, if you have 1/2 or so of water in the catch pot, then its gone in a few min, that will tell you that it ran down the sides of the pot, & the missed (dry) sections of soil sucked up (capillary action) the run off. Add more water till they stop sucking up the run off, then dump excess out of the catch pots. Catch pots are a gardeners friend ;)
I should have mentioned, the leaves that have hardened (kinda crispy) won't uncurl, but most of the soft pliable ones probably will. I can't always find enough catch pots, so I take a bigger pot as a form, & shape a double layer of foil into a catch pot, using the bottom of the larger pot. Making sure the catch pot is larger than the pot ensures for drainage & air to the roots. The tops of the plants use co2, but the roots need oxygen & without it, moist soil will 'sour'. Soil that's gone 'sour' is another old nurserymans term meaning stagnant soil. Once you get them healthy again, they'll finish fine. Just keep posting pics & texting descriptions so we can catch it quick if you get in trouble again.
-- I'm not getting email alerts to the threads I subscribe to like I should. Several months ago, a spammer was following me allover this forum, pushing a pyramid scheme, saying 'you don't have to sell illegal drugs, sell my legal product!' I looked up his posts, & for three or four days, ALL of his post were posted right after mine, & only mine no matter where I posted. I should have alerted Burnt Toast, but instead I unsubscribed to all the threads I was following to get that shit off my email alerts. He was caught at it, & the threads he posted to cleaned up. But since then, I only get forum alerts hit or miss. That spammer was so annoying I almost left cann.com because of him. Anyway, the point to that is I sometimes don't get my alerts & I'm not blowing anybody off, it just sometimes looks that way. :)
Hey bro saw your question in the reputation comment. Based on your pics, looks like you are overdoing the nutes and changing the ph much to drastically. You said your following the nute schedule...I tried to find in your thread but couldn't find it, what nutes/soil are you using? I would say its way more key to learn how to read your plants and base your nutes on the what the plant actually needs not on a predetermined schedule. I have been doing organics for a long time now and don't really care for synthetics so I am prob the wrong person to council you proper usage on chemical nutes. Best advice I can offer, is flush double the amount of gallons of water as your pot with some reverse osmosis water (tap water has chlorine/fluoride/chloramine in it which will destroys your soil) and back off the nutes. More then likely any areas of the leaf that have gone crispy wont recover sadly :(
Your plants aren't ruined, but they probably are gonna be stunted a bit. Chalk it up as a learning experience finish them out and learn from it. The grow bible is a must have to learn the ropes.
Don't feel bad, I've said before that you'll remember it better if your involved. This thread was a lot of info that you have probably really digested now, and that will make you better. When I see that leaf clawing(new term to me),I usually think of root damage. Then the plant is reacting to it. Seen it happen for several reasons, drain hole in pot plugged or not there, plant drowns(roots rot). Nute burn to roots, believe leaves curl to stop transportation(shut the stomas). Insect larva eating the roots, the most extreme case for me was a mouse took a liking to roots, actually made cave in the soil while eating. Cold will also cause it(just saw extreme case of it in my tent).Quote:
Originally Posted by budbro28
Drying(wilting) looks a little different, leaves hang down lowest first, eventuality will drop leaves from bottom up. But the guys covered that, once the root ball dries enough the soil pulls away from the sides of the pot, giving water a path of least resistance. Thus cat's catch pot, or my 'let it sit in the water' to resoak.
Prognosis, not good, best case stunted with yield cut. But what don't kill you makes you stronger, same with plant and maybe potency. But look at roots when your finished, they may tell the tail.
In short 'live and learn', but take heart a lot of people may learn from this. Know I really offered nothing new, but the help offered here by others really impressed me!
papapayne..thanks for gettin gback to me...im using fox farms ocean soil...and there nutrients...grow big big bloom and tiger bloom....who ever said this shit is easy..obviously is nuts...haha im going to keep these going till the end, but they are starting to look a little worse this morning...well the main one(the one that was dried out the most)Quote:
Originally Posted by papapayne
so whats the best kind of water to be using? reverse osmosis, tap that has sit out...or spring water thats been areated with airstone or shaken like a mother...?
humbling experience to say the least...a little defeated by mother nature but not totally...i really do appreciate all the sound help and advice...from all thank you...will keep pictures and updates daily
and ranger...thanks for being the calm through the storm (along with weeze) was tripping over here....gunna germ some new next week if theydont show some signs of improvement.
budbro when using Ocean Forest you must be really careful with added nutes. That soil is loaded and I have burned plants with it. It's great soil, but adding any ferts to it should be done sparingly. A few people have impressed on me that the Foxfarm feeding schedule is too hot. Especially the Grow Big I use at half strength, and during veg I added NO ferts ever, and my plants grew like freaking trees. Everyone has to learn what works for them and no two gardens are the same. But in the future you should try to adopt a "wait and see" approach with especially the high Nitrogen nutes. In other words, if the plant looks good, there is no reason to keep hitting it with heavy nutes. Eventually it will start to exhaust the soil, but if all of your other conditions are good and your pots are the right size you shouldn't really ever be in an emergency situation with nutes. I rarely hear anyone panicking over a plant that needs nutes, it's almost always the other way around. A continuous, low-level feeding is better than a cyclical, heavy-hitting regime. That becomes a stress unto itself.
I, along with a lot of other experienced growers, have a tendency to forget a lot of first time growers have never grown any kind of plant before, so we really need a sticky thread that's pretty much 'plant basics 101'. Proper watering is THE most important part of helping a plant to thrive. First of all, when you pot up a plant, always leave enough room between the pot rim & soil surface for water. About 1"-1 1/2" for party cups up to 4" pots, the bigger the pot, the more room for water. 6" for a 5 gal bucket, sometimes I'll give it 8". Let the top of the soil dry, stick your finger in it & feel for the moisture (some people heft the pot & go by weight). If its dry an inch or so down, time for water. DONT let it dry to the bottom of the pot unless its a damned cactus! You don't want it so dry the soil shrinks, but should that happen, water lightly, not enough to hit the sides of the pot, keep it in the center to make sure its absorbed rather that travelling down the side between the soil & the pot. This will cause the soil to expand & fill the pot again. Once that happens, fill the pot to the top with water. Making sure you've used enough water to 'run through'. I usually let it sit in the run off 2-3 min. If there were any dry pockets in the soil, they will absorb the water. Then dump the access out of the catch pot. Water again when the top inch or so becomes dry again. That would be for a party cup (don't forget to punch 4 drain holes in these guys) or a 4" pot. The bigger the pot, the deeper you go on the surface dryness. NEVER give anything other than plain water to a plant in bone dry soil or one that is dry enough to wilt. Anytime you've let them over dry, let them sit in the run off in the catch pot untill they stop absorbing water. This is NOT over watering. Over watering occurs when you water too FREQUENTLY, not allowing the soil to dry somewhat between waterings. The roots litterly drown from lack of oxygen. Perfectly watered soil is soil that is moist, but still has small air spaces between the soil particals. Well drained soil holds water within itself while allowing very small air spaces for roots to breathe. Fox farm soils are a good example of this. When using a rich organic soil such as fox farms, hold off on the nutes untill the plants say they they need it. Usually 2-3 wks after transplanting into bigger pot/fresh soil, & about 1/4 strength the first feed, 1/2 for a while. I never use high nitro/ growth nutes stronger than 1/2 recommended strength because I use rich soils. I even use tiger bloom 1/4, then 1/2, & then the recommended amount 1/2 way into budding. Remember, you feed the soil & the soil feeds the plant.
-- read this post more than once. What you've done is burn the hell out of the root hairs by feeding dry soil. Nitrogen is the worse for burning, & I can tell by the color & texture of the leaves that this is a nitrogen burn. Also, the fact that there's no 'gloss' at all to the leaves, I would say they've been water stressed for a while before the nute burn. Probably not watering through & leaving a dry air pocket just below the root ball. This probably happened after the roots filled the pots & the plants required more water than before, but the water amount wasn't changed as they changed. If you do the catch pot thing & let them sit in the run through water a few min you can prevent this from happening again. Remember, before you feed, make sure there is some moisture to be felt by your finger tip slightly below the soil surface.
-- Sounds like its possible you will loose the worst one, & the others will be stunted & yield decreased because of this, but with proper watering & backing off with the nutes for a while, they should survive & give you something to harvest. Everybody here has given you good, sound advice, but like I said, we do tend to forget first time growers have never grown anything before, so better late than never, I've given you the basics. I hope I've made it easy to understand, if not, just ask & one of us will clarify. Good luck & I'll make it a point to check your thread often. :)
yea ive never grown anything....thanks, got a friend giving me 4 clones from his so i dont have to start from scratch...thanks Dutch...
and just to clear the air, i apologize if this bugged anyone or if you found it to be an annoyance, some learn harder than others ie ME
good karma for all (feel like santa saying that) but really thank you everyone for the help...
buddy just brought foxfarm sledgehammer over...1/2 tablespoon per gallon to flush salt buildup and shit...or should i quit adding things to it and just use water?
Not a problem. You were not an annoyance. If we'd realized you had grown nothing at all before, we'd have started at the beginning, but we kinda started in the middle without giving you the basics first. Regardless of the subject, that can sometimes be an oversight of those who've been doing something all their lives. Keep posting & sending picks. I promise you more guidance from now on. Good luck with the clones & we'll help you every step of the way! :)
Just use water for now. Then try it on one next watering. If its okay after 24 hrs, go ahead & use it, but I'd dilute it just a tad, maybe not fill the tablespoon all the way by a smidgen.
how often on these waterings to "flush"
Great advice all around. I am lucky budbro because I had a lot of experience growing plants in many types of environments, both professionally and personally before I tried my hand at Cannabis. I too forget that people new to growing plants are really easily overwhelmed by all of this. The internet is so full of contradictory and vaguely explained instructions with Cannabis growing. That's why my strategy was to get on this forum and try to make friends with people who knew their stuff and were friendly and helpful, and limit the amount of info coming from all different directions. You're not an annoyance. I love helping people with growing plants. If you're studious and patient, you'll start to understand what these organisms are all about and how to tend them, and it is a singular joy when all the hard work pays off. But stuff happens, and even the best growers have problems. It's a continuous learning process, and helping others is part of that learning as well.
Just once for this issue. Just fill the pot to the top with water & let it run through 3-4 times. What you'll really be doing is 'rinsing' away all the disolved nutes suspended between the soil particles. Provided you have no more problems, you'll only need to flush again 2 weeks before harvest. Not trying to overwhelm you with too much info at once, but should you find your pH off (sometimes caused by salts build up, causing nute lock out), its easier to correct & stabilize pH if you first flush out whatever happens to be causing the problem. But we'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. But do a plain water flush this time, & if you want, just try the sledgehammer on one plant the next watering. Like I said, if it looks fine the next day, go ahead & do the rest. I personally don't use a flushing product, just plain water, but that's because I use nutes lightly. Don't stress yourself so much over this. Remember they're only plants & you can always plant more. You might want to use bagseeds untill you build your confidence. :)
I meant to say 1/2 tablespoon. Didnt catch my boo boo untill it was too late to edit. SORRY!Quote:
Originally Posted by catbuds
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as they stand as of now....the tops on all the plants look okay...so hopefully theyll come around...whats everyones take?
Is this after flushing/rinsing? To me it looks like you will get past the problem. The damaged leaves will not recover, but the new growth is trending toward normal. My call is that you lose some development time and perhaps see some stunted growth, but I think they'll live.:)
yea after just normal water rinse. no flushing solution....will the damaged leaves still photosynthesize? ive trimmed the worse looking ones off and the tips off of alot that were crunchy brittle....i left all that felt soft and wilted hoping they recovery to somewhat of a normal state...
If there is living tissue, they will keep photosynthesizing, but you'll have to make a trade-off between that and wasting the plant's resources trying to keep a sick and dying leaf alive. Mostly you just want to avoid the temptation to fix everything at once. That can provide additional stress. Take off any obviously dead, diseased or crunchy leaves, but then let it be for a few days before removing anything else.
cat so i did a test flush on one plant with half strength of the suggested dose...when i did this i put in a tray and allowed it to sit for a few minutes then took out of water, trashed excess, replaced her back on tray....my question is this (and ive posted a pictuer but i doubt youll see what im talking about) when i looked at water there was a film on water (the run off water) that looked almost like oil/gas on water...is this the build up washing out? ie the bad stuff?Attachment 297696
also wanted to show you guys how i have the clones setup from my buds main lady...he used clonex rooting gel, 2x2 rockwool cubes cubes soaked in distilled water...???... he followed jorge cervantes to a T i watched him do it....(see youtube video) in picture to follow is how they currently sit...4-2ft T5 bulbs about 5inches from the top of the humidorwhich sits about 8 inches from the tops of the clones..i know some are gunna say im bitting off to much but whatever i got some freetime and i like to read...and if it hadnt been for this one NOOB rookie, bullshit..slacking on my part move...id have some real good looking ones right now.....for someone edumacated and stuff...i feel real dumb i dont know why but i just always have that feeling like im doing something wrong now...my soul hurts for hurting these beauts
Attachment 297697
should light be a little closer?
Well, I'm not one to argue with Cervantes, but I would never jam a fresh cutting into distilled water and place it under anything remotely like a strong light. Distilled water is highly purified water. Water is a very strong and somewhat general solvent. It can dissolve a very wide array of compounds very efficiently. The more pure the water, the stronger the solvent effect. Think of a cutting like a delicate surgical procedure. The cutting needs to be protected from extreme conditions, so that it can concentrate on healing and growing. It has little in the way of defense. I soak my rockwool in slightly acidic, purified water with very very dilute nutes (1/50th strength), and once the cutting is in, I put it under a dome like you have there, but under very indirect light for at least the first week. On the other hand, some people have a lot of luck treating clones somewhat harshly and getting good results. From my experience cloning plants in general, every species and strain behaves differently, but stressing the thing right after it's been hacked off of it's Mother seems illogical to me. I would think about backing off the strong light, at least at first. The dome with the interior sprayed with water is good. Just be gentle. They are in distress until they form roots.
Just me, agree with whole plan, except found distilled water works best for me, and no nutes.
Jorge Cervantes: Taking Clones Part 1 - YouTube
followed that and this one
Jorge Cervantes - Taking Clones Part 2 - YouTube
Attachment 297702
this is them after the first night...cut em about 130 pm yesterday
hahaha uh-oh ill keep ya posted on how they do...keeping fingers crossed that i dont have to start from scratch...these four cuttings are "regular plants" non autofloweringQuote:
Originally Posted by Chromophore
You'll like not starting from scratch, especially if you liked mama!