Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed

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Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883

How do I qualify being a "hater?" Answer that.

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Perhaps it's your insistance that all was well with the armada, and it was the Isralei's aggression that started all this. Plus, the copy-n-paste propoganda, and the website links. Facts are bullshit in your eyes, if they don't jive with your misguided and misinformed ideology. Your postings reflect this.
You've heard of the cropping of photos by Reuters...? (an international news outlet) Got busted cropping a photo showing the knife-weilding "peaceavist" standing over a bloddy Isralei boarding party member. (knife and pool of blood missing in the first photo published) It's not Reuters' first brush with photoshopping to further the Palestinian agenda.
Please, tell us the one about the unarmed floatilla again...

Did Reuters Crop a Photo to Remove a Peace Activist’s Weapon? - Charles Johnson - The Lizard Annex - True/Slant

Again...some of us aren't clueless on the subject. Likely a good idea for you to learn the difference between facts and propoganda too, if you wish to sucessfully defend your position.

The same people separated by religion. They both carry the same or like genetic code. Talk about Cane and Able. :D

DNA study confirms geographical origin of Jews | Raw Story

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Originally Posted by bigsby

...It seems to be part of a strategy - get all worked up, jump up and down, yell and shout. Anything except debate the issues right? ...

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:D

no offense, IB, but that is funny. you should have seen the comments that were deleted from a newly banned member on this thread. :buzz_saw:

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Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity

in some circumstances it shows a bias of some sort, but i don't think you can describe it as racism. the one thing that all jihadists have in common is a devotion to some fundamentalist form of islam. they come in all colors and, though a majority are from the middle east, from all over the world, so i really don't think that racism is the proper term.

racism is, however, the proper term if your goal is to engender a distrust of someone using the term "jihadist". though it has been over-used, it still elicits a certain dismay among the majority of westerners. ...

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thats, true. maybe bigoted would be a better description. or just prejudiced. :twocents:

The Israeli government has admitted that its blockade of Gaza is not a security measure but actually an act of "economic warfare" against Hamas, an Israeli human rights group says.

In response to a lawsuit by the Tel-Aviv based Legal Center for Freedom of Movement (Gisha), the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare, mcclatchydc.com reported on Wednesday.

"A country has the right to decide that it chooses not to engage in economic relations or to give economic assistance to the other party to the conflict, or that it wishes to operate using 'economic warfare,'" the Israeli government said in a written statement McClatchy obtained from Gisha.

Gisha sued the Israeli government for information about the blockade, the Israeli high court ruled in the human rights group's favor, and the government delivered its statement earlier this year.

The documents prove that Israel isn't imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza, Gisha Director Sari Bashi said.

In addition, an Israeli government spokesman, who spoke on condition anonymity, told McClatchy on Wednesday that the authorities will continue to ease the three-year blockade but "could not lift the embargo altogether as long as Hamas remains in control" of Gaza.

In a report issued on Tuesday, Gisha said the Israeli military allows just 97 different items to enter the Gaza Strip, as compared to the over 4,000 items that entered before June 2007, AFP reported.

The 1.5 million residents of the Gaza Strip are being deprived at a time when an average Israeli supermarket is stocked with 10,000 to 15,000 different items, Gisha stated.

The report also says that the Gazans are being denied access to goods that have no apparent military purpose, such as ginger, paper, vegetables, and musical instruments.

"(Israel) forbids the transfer to Gaza of large blocks of margarine intended for industrial usage yet allows in small packages of margarine for household consumption," Gisha noted.

"It bans the transfer of rubber, glue, and nylon, which are used in the production of diapers in the Strip, yet allows the transfer of diapers produced in Israel," the Gisha report added.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020202

The immediate sanctions on Iran were designed to block out Israel's recent crimes. And AGAIN, I ask why does "Israel" not have any sanctions in regard to their nuclear WMD's?

Israel's Nuclear Facilities | atomicarchive.com

To: UN General Assembly
Dear UN General Assembly Members:

We, the undersigned citizens of the world, call on the United Nations General Assembly to rescind Israel's membership in the UN, as a step toward ending Zionist apartheid.

Israel's attack on a humanitarian aid fleet on Monday June 31, 2010, its murder of 19 human rights activists in international waters and wounding 50 others demonstrate that Israel rejects the structural tenets of our shared humanity, manifested in a global moral consensus and international law.

Countless UN resolutions call on Israel to respect international law. It abides by none of them. It should therefore lose its place among the global family of nations.

Israel has been violating international law and the Fourth Geneva Convention in its building of settlements, displacement of the indigenous population of Palestine, invasion of surrounding countries, killing and ethnically cleansing civilians systematically through the use of massacres. Israel has never been held accountable for the massacres of Deir Yassin, Qibya, Sabra and Shatilla, Qana, Gaza, and Jenin, for murdering Rachel Corrie, nor, as of today, for its massacre on the flotilla of international peace activists hoping to break Israelâ??s siege on the Palestinian people. As of 2007, Gaza has been turned into an open air prison housing 1.5 million people. Since 1948, Palestinians who carry Israeli citizenship do not enjoy equal protection or rights under Israeli law for not being classified as â??Jewish Nationals.â?� Palestinian survivors of ethnic cleansing are denied the right to return.

We, the citizens of the world, call upon you to shape the 21st century with a new ethic, already enshrined in the United Nations. We call upon you to end Zionist apartheid and racial injustice by stripping Israel of its UN membership.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned

Strip Israel of UN membership Petition

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF4_oaTIH8g[/YOUTUBE]

By disarming the Muslim countries one by one, the neo-conservative US policy serves the Israeli objective of â??securingâ?? its expanding borders, which at present is confined to building settlements (land theft) in the occupied territories. When this episode is forgotten, Israel will try to occupy another piece of land using the pretext of security, no doubt the world will be told, Israel was compelled to act in self-defence; thus, creeping towards its ultimate dream of creating Eretz (greater) Israel that runs from the Nile, to the Euphrates. The latest attempts to intimidate nuclear-free Iran by nuclear Israel, reflects that long term Israeli ambition.

Here are the facts:

â?¢ Iran has not attacked any of its neighbours over the last 60 years, unlike belligerent Israel.

â?¢ Iran is a signatory to Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) treaty, and has no nuclear weapons.

â?¢ With the direct help of the US, Israel has been armed with nuclear weapons, and the power of its conventional forces continues to increase in relation to the surrounding countries.

â?¢ Israel continues to build more settlement in the occupied territories, openly violating the UN resolutions in place.

â?¢ In direct contravention of International Law, Israel denies the right of the Palestinians to return to their homes, and concurrently permits any Jews to come and settle in occupied Palestine.

â?¢ In addition to state terrorism, the inhumane and illegal blockade of Gaza has turned it into an open concentration camp, and corroborates Israelâ??s brutal policy of ethnic cleansing.

â?¢ Israel refuses to become a signatory of the NPT, and denies the international inspection of its nuclear weapons.

â?¢ Recently, United Nations ratified a resolution aimed at creating a Middle East without any nuclear weapons, which is casually ignored by Israel.

â?¢ All the 189 signatories to the NPT agreed for the establishment of a Middle East without nuclear weapons. For this purpose, they have called on all Middle East nations to attend a conference to be held in 2012. Israel has confirmed they will not participate in this collective peace process.

â?¢ The agreement also, stressed "the importance of Israel's accession to the treaty and the placement of all its nuclear facilities under comprehensive IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) safeguards." Israel will not sign the NPT treaty.

Israel and the US oppose this unified move from the International community, the same old excuse of Israelâ??s security, and it rants about the â??threatâ?? from nuclear-free Iran. Over the years, the numerous military adventures undertaken by Israel have proven that its conventional force provides adequate security, not to mention, the mighty US is always ready to help should Israel need it.

Therefore, what does Israel do? It sends two of its submarine equipped with nuclear weapons to the coast of Iran. Israelâ??s possession of nuclear weapons with its record of disproportionately killing Arab civilians is not a problem for the US. Why should it be? The US has excelled in that arena. As for Israel, it continues to commit state-terrorism, assassination, and now piracy in international waters; from Ban Ki Moon to Obama and every other western leader looks on with regret after regret, whilst privileged Israel continues to ignore and plead the usual â??argumentâ?? of: we are victims acting in self-defence.

After disarming Iraq, the first step towards disarming Iran is to ensure that it remains nuclear-free, whilst helping Israel to increase its strength. Power in international arena is always relative. That would leave Turkey as the only other Muslim country in the region. Perhaps, Turkey has spotted that, even as a NATO ally it too will be subjected to the same US-Israeli policy eventually and the noise is being made about saving the Armenians are ominous. This may partly explain why nationalist Turkey has have started to take a radically different stance on its relationship with Israel and the Arab countries, in recent times.

News: The US Foreign Policy: Disarm the Muslim World and Arm the Israelis | Wake Up From Your Slumber

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Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883

Do you know how much financial aid Israel contributes to America? None. All of Americans hard earned tax dollars goes towards Israel's wars.

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Israeli request for more arms from US raises fears of regional violence

Israel has approached the United States for more bombs and asked Washington to increase an emergency arms cache stowed on Israeli soil by 50 per cent, according to the leading newspaper Ha'aretz.

The approach, made by Defence Minister Ehud Barak during a recent visit to Washington, reflects the heightened tensions in recent months between the Jewish state and its neighbours that have given rise to widespread fears within Israel of an imminent regional conflict.

News of the request emerged as members of the international community stepped up the pressure yesterday for a thorough and impartial probe of last week's Israeli raid of a Turkish vessel bound for Gaza with humanitarian aid that ended in a bloodbath.

The Russian Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin, who was attending a regional security summit in Turkey, added to the criticism of Israel and said he would raise the question of who would conduct an inquiry with the United Nations.

Israel has agreed to carry out an investigation, which could be overseen by two international observers, but would be limited to a theoretical debate of the merits of the raid and the blockade. The commandos who led the raid would not be questioned.

Israel has defended its land and sea blockade of Gaza, arguing that it prevents the flow of weapons to Hamas, the Islamist group that governs the strip. Critics say it constitutes collective punishment that has led to a humanitarian crisis.

Fearing that its enemies are rearming along its borders, Jerusalem has asked Washington to increase the emergency stores by $400m (£278m) to $1.2bn and is also seeking to buy more Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) bombs from the US, the liberal newspaper Ha'aretz reported, citing unnamed sources.

The JDAM is a sophisticated satellite-guided bomb used extensively by Israel in the Lebanon War in 2006 and in its Gaza offensive at the end of 2008.

The Israeli Ministry of Defence refused to comment on the report and the US State Department did not respond to requests for comment.

Washington agreed in December to double stores to $800m worth of arms, including rockets, bombs and armoured vehicles, allowing the Israeli forces to use the equipment with US approval in the case of an emergency.

Israel has already done so in the past, falling back on the US munitions during the Lebanon War in which at least 1,200 Lebanese and 160 Israelis were killed.

The Israeli move reflects the country's growing sense of embattlement in a region largely hostile to it. Iran

has repeatedly threatened to erase Israel from the map, while Hizbollah, the Iranian-backed Lebanese militia group, has amassed thousands of rockets along Israel's northern border. Relations with Turkey, once Israel's closest ally in the region, have plunged to new lows following the flotilla raid.

"Israel does have a sense of the coalescing of an alliance which is committed sooner or later to war with Israel," said Jonathan Spyer, senior researcher at the Global Research in International Affairs Centre in Herzliya. "Everyone is building up frightening amounts of military hardware."

Israel recently accused Syria of providing Hizbollah with Scud missiles, a powerful weapon capable of hitting cities deep inside Israel. Syria vehemently denied the claims, countering that Israel was seeking a pretext for war.

Neither Hizbollah, still smarting from the previous conflict four years ago, nor Israel are likely to want another war, Spyer said. Any conflict with Hizbollah would likely spin out of control beyond Lebanon to include Syria and Iran.

The US, Israel's staunchest ally, provided $2.5bn in military aid to Israel last year, freeing up an equivalent amount for spending in other areas. It recently agreed to help fund the country's Iron Dome project, a controversial anti-missile system.

Israeli request for more arms from US raises fears of regional violence - Middle East, World - The Independent

Since you only seem to understand cut-n-paste politics, here ya go:


Who Chose Hamas to Lead Them? | FrontPage MagazineWho Chose Hamas to Lead Them?
To understand the people of Gaza, who now lay claim to the passions of humanitarians-without-a-cause, one might begin by considering Gazansâ?? freely elected leadership: the Hamas terror network. And to understand Hamas, one might begin by looking closely at the Hamas logo. The logoâ??s center features swords and a golden-domed structure, but the squiggle at the top-center of the logo is most descriptive. One squiggle is worth a thousand words. That squiggle is not an Arabic symbol but the map of Israel.

Look even more carefully: the squiggle â?? the map of Israel depicted on the Hamas logo â?? primarily is pre-1967 Israel. It is Israel without the Gaza Strip. Hamas has no designs on the Gaza Strip it controls. Rather, leveraging Gaza as a springboard for its actual aspiration, Hamas illustratively has designs on the only Palestine it ever has coveted: the Palestine that now is called â??the State of Israel.â?� As Jew-hating journalist Helen Thomas recently said about Israelis, â??Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine. Remember, these [Arab] people are occupied, and itâ??s their land.â?� The Jews, Thomas added, can go back where they come from â?? â??Poland. Germany. . . . And America and everywhere else.â?� (Reflecting ignorance all too common among the White House press corps, Thomas is unaware that the majority of Israelis are children of the Middle East, descendants of the 850,000 Jews exiled by Northern African Arab dictatorships during the years Israel was being founded.)

The only â??Palestineâ?� that ever existed was always synonymous with the Jewish homeland that later was renamed â??Israelâ?� in 1948. Rent a copy of the 1960 movie â??Exodus.â?� Listen dispassionately to the dialogue. Donâ??t take sides. Just listen for definitions. The British, fairly or unfairly, are depicted as the bad guys in the movie, trying to keep the Jews out of â??Palestine.â?� Paul Newman is trying to get the Jews into â??Palestine.â?� Everyone watching the movie perceives that â??Palestineâ?� is a name that refers synonymously with â??Israel.â?� Thus, what we seem to have had here is a failure to communicate. It could not be simpler: For the past two thousand years, since the Romans renamed the land of Israel after they expelled and exiled the Jews, â??Israelâ?� always was synonymous with â??Palestine,â?� and â??Palestineâ?� always was â??Israel.â?�

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/wo...01rockets.html

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel's history of bomb blasts
September 2000. Below are some of the most deadly.
2005

25 February: Four people are killed and at least 30 people are injured in a bomb blast outside a night club in Tel Aviv, weeks after Israeli and Palestinian leaders declare a truce.


2004

1 November: A teenage suicide bomber kills at least three people in the crowded Carmel market in Tel Aviv.

31 August: At least 16 people are killed and dozens are injured in two near-simultaneous suicide bombings on two buses in the southern city of Beersheba.

11 July: One person is killed and 21 are wounded by a bomb packed with metal bolts, which explodes near a bus stop in Tel Aviv.

14 March: A double suicide bombing kills 10 Israelis in the port of Ashdod on the Mediterranean coast.

22 February: A Palestinian suicide bomber kills eight people and injures dozens in an attack on an Israeli bus in Jerusalem.

29 January: A suicide bomber kills 11 people and injures around 50 on a bus in Jerusalem.

14 January: Hamas female suicide bomber kills four Israelis on the border with Gaza and injures seven.

2003

4 October: A suicide bomber blows herself up in a packed Haifa restaurant, killing at least 19 people including three children.

9 September: Two separate suicide attacks leave at least 15 people dead and scores wounded in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

In the first attack, at least eight people were killed - including the bomber - at the entrance to the Tzrifin Israeli Defence Force base, near Tel Aviv.

Hours later, a bomb attack outside a popular cafe in west Jerusalem left at least seven dead.

19 August: A suicide bomber wrecks a bus in Jerusalem, killing at least 20 people and injuring up to 100 others, in a serious blow to peace efforts. Hours later, Israel halts the handover of West Bank towns and cuts off contacts with Palestinians officials.

12 August: At least four people are killed and dozens injured in two suicide attacks by Palestinian bombers in Israel and the West Bank.

In the first attack, an explosion rips through a shopping centre in the central Israeli town of Rosh Haayin near Tel Aviv, killing two people and injuring at least 10 others.

Shortly afterwards, another suicide bomber blows himself up among a group of Israeli soldiers at a bus stop outside the Jewish settlement of Ariel, in the West Bank.

19 June: A suicide bomber kills himself and an Israeli man, owner of a grocery shop in Sde Trumot, a small village a few kilometres from the West Bank in northern Israel.

11 June: Sixteen people are killed in a bus bomb in Jerusalem, in the first suicide attack since US President Bush's peace summit a week before. It follows an Israeli air strike on 10 June aimed at killing Hamas leader Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi in Gaza.

Within an hour of the bus attack, Israeli helicopters launch another attack in Gaza, killing several people, reportedly including a top militant.

19 May: At least three people are killed and 18 injured in a suicide attack on a shopping mall in the northern Israeli town of Afula. The bomber is reported to have been a woman.
Earlier, three Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip are injured when a suicide bomber riding a bicycle detonate explosives strapped to his body.

18 May: Seven people are killed when a suicide bomber blows himself up on board a bus in northern Jerusalem. A second attacker kills himself minutes later as emergency crews arrive but no-one else is seriously hurt. The blasts come hours after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon held the first talks with his Palestinian counterpart, Mahmoud Abbas, better known as Abu Mazen.

17 May: A Palestinian suicide bomber disguised as a religious Jew kills an Israeli man and his pregnant wife in the West Bank town of Hebron.

Sorry, there were MULTIPLE Hamas figures onboard those boats....two of which were released in a prisoner exchange with Palestine. Israel broke no International laws and NOTHING will come of this except more saber rattling from the Islamofascist cowards of the middle east and the bigots here in the states. Story over. Poor peace activists.

So the boats, with confirmed Hamas members onboard, DID pose a threat and Israel acted WELL within its rights. If it hadn't, we could have expected the Obama administrations lawyers to come down on the side of Palestine....which they didnt.

And they will continue to raid each and every other boat that tries to run their blockade and nothing will come of it.......Reuters and the BBC can doctor all the pics they want.

The only outrage I can see is that Major League Baseball doesn't send any scouts to Palestine....some of those rock throwers have an arm and the Astros need some quality starters.

Its this "if only the Palestinians had a state, the violence would stop" BS mantra i hear that sets me off.....GET REAL!!! The palestinians could have had a state a LONG time ago IF they had wanted one, thats NEVER been a priority.

Then we have the american libs who blabber on and on and on about "occupation". Sorry dudes, Gaza isnt occupied and HASN'T been for YEARS, and the violence has increased contrary to liberal predictions here AND in Israel.

The Palestinians want the destruction of Israel and the Jews worldwide.....not a fucking state. When that ideology is wiped away, the violence will stop....if not.....it will continue. Racism and and the supremist ideology is rampant in the Middle East......mostly among muslims.....sorry,facts are facts. If you dont like that go report me.:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Islandborn

Then we have the american libs who blabber on and on and on about "occupation". Sorry dudes, Gaza isnt occupied and HASN'T been for YEARS, and the violence has increased contrary to liberal predictions here AND in Israel.

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How do you understand occupation? What constitutes freedom from occupation? Clearly you have not given this much thought so let me give you some insights.

Freedom from occupation means control over land, territorial waters, borders, natural resources, and population. Israel evacuated it's soldiers and colonies from the Gaza Strip but it maintains control over the borders, imports and exports, territorial waters, airspace, and the population. Israel determines who and what is entitled to enter, exit, and remain in Gaza. This is occupation my friend. I invite you to show us how this is not so but since you do not deal with facts I'm guessing you will continue to obfuscate with half truths and personal attacks. So transparent.

Let's clear up something else (assuming that you read this far). Under international law Palestinians have the right to resist armed occupation by force of arms. Plain and simple. You can not escape the fact that Israel invaded and occupies these territories by force of arms.

I have given you some clear facts. See if you can refute them. If you can't resort to name calling and bating.

Regarding the classification of 'occupation':
(my comments italicized and in parentheses)
An interview with Malcolm Smart, director of Middle East and North Africa at Amnesty International:
Amnesty: Gaza is Still Under Israeli Occupation - Page1
Question by interviewer) "What is required of Israel to stop it from being an occupying force under Amnestyâ??s definition?
Answer by good ol' Malcolm) That there will be another sovereign power and that the border crossings to Gaza not be under Israeli control. Thatâ??s the meaning of occupation, thereâ??s no other sovereign power there, thereâ??s no control over the border crossings for free movement of people and goods and thatâ??s why Gaza is under occupation.

Is an exit by the Navy from Gazaâ??s waters an end to the occupation?
No.

Is opening the border crossings with Israel ending the occupation?
Thatâ??s a step towards ending the occupation.

Can Israel not ever close the border crossings to Gaza?
Assuming that another sovereign power will be there, there can be international border crossings. Thatâ??s not the situation as of today.

Hamas is defined as a sovereign power by the Goldstone committee which treated it as â??the authority of Gazaâ?� and is internationally recognized by a large number of countries.
It receives recognition as a de facto regime. The question of the Israeli occupation is not related to Hamas. Itâ??s connected with Israelâ??s actions.

So what actions must Israel take? You say that the occupation ends if Israel opens the crossings, so if the occupation ends, Israel needs to close the borders since Gaza is defined as an enemy state. Thereâ??s a logical contradiction here.
I donâ??t understand where the contradiction is.
(avoids the question)

The border between Israel and Lebanon is closed since Lebanon is an enemy state. Youâ??re claiming that Israel needs to open the borders to Gaza and then the occupation will end. And then Israel will have to close the crossings.
Iâ??ll ask you another question. Can Lebanon control the transfer of goods and people to Lebanon not opposite Israel but opposite other countries?
(avoids the question)

So the problem is with the control by sea and air. If the seas are open there is no occupation?
Of course, had it been possible to enter Gaza freely through the air, by sea and land, that would certainly be one component of the occupation ending.

What are all the components to end the occupation? Amnesty does not present a plan in which Israel stops the occupation. It says that Israel needs to stop the occupation and deepen the occupation by opening the borders. I donâ??t comprehend that.
Amnesty International does not deal with solving conflicts.
(but they do deal with assisting conflicts)

Itâ??s not conflict solving. Itâ??s ending the occupation. Amnesty says that Gaza is under occupation. According to Amnesty, what actions must Israel take in order to stop the occupation?
One of the things which need to be done is to allow the passage of people and goods through the air, the sea and land. Thatâ??s one component. There are other components related to agreements of the international community since Amnesty International does not deal with solving conflicts. It only addresses the question of whether the situation is adequate in relation to international humanitarian law and international standards. It doesnâ??t deal with solving the conflict, not here or anywhere else.

If Amnesty claims that thereâ??s an occupation there should be a definition of when thereâ??s no occupation. Amnesty claims that Israel needs to open all the crossings for free movement from Gaza to Israel and remove the sea and land siege on Gaza, meaning let Gaza be open to the entire world with no connection to Israel, but under those circumstances the occupation no longer exists. So why is there a need to transfer supplies to Gaza? Does Amnesty by the same logic demand the American forces in Afghanistan to help the Taliban? And take care of the sick among the Taliban? Thatâ??s the question, when does the occupation end?
I admit that I donâ??t understand the question. Iâ??m unclear as to what kind of answer you expect.
(yup...got to where he's at by being an undereducated parrot without the capacity ot express his views)

I am expecting to receive an answer to whether if Israel withdraws its forces from the waters of Gaza, allow the passage of goods to Gaza without inspection, remove the air control of the Gaza Strip and open it to free movement, the occupation will end and Israel will no longer be responsible for Gaza and only for marginal issues, thatâ??s what I expect Amnesty to say.
There are other components of electricity, water. These things do not stand on their own. Removing the siege is one step towards ending the occupation. There are components involving all the aspects of life in Gaza: Social, economic and cultural. Removing the siege is one important step to end the occupation and there are other steps.

What are the necessary steps on which you can elaborate?
One, allow the Palestinians in Gaza free access to drinking water. Israel hasnâ??t done this in all the years of the occupation until now, and it has a responsibility to ensure that Gazaâ??s residents have access to water. The same thing goes for health services. For dozens of years the rights of those residents have been prevented and the formations of civil infrastructures were prevented and this became worse during the attacks of last year, and a large part of those infrastructures were destroyed and not rebuilt to this day. This is an obligation of which Israel cannot free itself.

Itâ??s an obligation of which Israel cannot free itself, but it has nothing to do with the occupation. Those are two different things.
Itâ??s related to the situation of the continuing occupation.
(sure about that...?)

Amnesty claims that Israel is an occupying country and is responsible for the welfare of Gazaâ??s residents. According to this definition, does Israel need to act against the Hamas government in order to care for the welfare and safety of Gazaâ??s residents?
The State of Israel has an obligation to protect its citizens. It has an obligation to distinguish between military targets and civil targets. When Israel hit legitimate military targets we did not criticize it, because we are not a pacifist organization and we donâ??t deal with conflict solving, so when Israel hit military targets you didnâ??t hear any criticism from Amnesty. We certainly criticize Hamas for the internal violence it applies, the illegal executions and imprisonments. We sounded very strong criticism against Hamasâ?? conduct on these issues.

The question is whether Israel is committed, being an occupying force as Amnesty defines, to be concerned for the welfare of Gazaâ??s residents and therefore act against the Hamas government and the Palestinian terrorist organizations that control Gaza, in order to protect the Palestinian population?
Israel has a duty to protect its citizens. (round-n-round)

Amnestyâ??s messages said that Israel should take care to protect the people of Gaza. Is the issue of the security of the people of Gaza not an authority which Israel has?
Israelâ??s duty is to protect its citizens and ensure that the people of Gaza enjoy all the social and economic rights recognized in international law and in the Geneva convention.

So if Hamas is violating the rights of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to live, as defined in international law, does Israel not have the authority to act against the Hamas government to care for the safety of the people of Gaza?
The problem is first and foremost the rights of the people of Gaza which Israel violates by the illegal siege. (round-n-round)


[I]So Hamas (ruling the Plaestinian people) will not provide for it's people, because it's Israel, and it's Israels responsibility. But if it's Israels responsibility, shouldn't Israel forceably remove Hamas for it's human rights abuses to it's own people? For Hamas using the Palestinian civilian women and children as human shields from which they fire rockets into Israel, blowing-up busses and nightclubs killing hundreds of civilians, and similar cowardly acts? For channeling funding (mainly from the UN, USA, Europe, all Arab nations...) into military attacks rather than improving infrastructure and providing for their people? The actions of Hamas bely their position of wanting an independent state of free people. They want a closer access to Israel proper for a higher casulity count from rocket attacks into Israeli cities.

The Goldstone report was then and is now a TOTAL joke....Israel was guilty before it even started.......your gonna have to get up ALOT earlier than that.

Goldstone report......... lmao.

Heres a quick run down of this highschoolish paper, almost as highschoolish as the UN's IDIOTIC science behind their man-made global warming charade. The UN is a unrespected group worldwide.....no nation gives a shit what they have to say anymore. IRAN SITS ON ITS HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISION. They stoned a woman to death 2 weeks ago for dressing sexy.....STONED HER TO DEATH. Sorry if I mock the coward filled United Nations.

CAMERA: The Goldstone Report: A Study in Duplicity

I personally can post videos of Hamas hiding in civilian clothes and running into Mosques to shoot mortars.

Israel encourages any muslim finatic or their western peace activist friends to bring it on....they are waiting for ya:D

people can howl and scream all they want....but no boat is going into Gaza without being searched first, thats it. Nothings gonna change about that....nothing. Once the boats are cleared, the cargo is shipped into Gaza which you can also find in video. I'll give Hamas some credit on their PR....its getting better. Its just our info moves MUCH faster and we bust their sympathizers in the media....its fun. Im looking at you Reuters and BBC bigots. They dont even pay actual reporters anymore.....they hire the terrorists personally for good video's and then crop and alter them to fit their agenda. Its not complicated.

Is Helen Thomas in Poland yet? Bet she wont go to Israel cause bigots and racists are cowards deep down.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

The actions of Hamas bely their position of wanting an independent state of free people. They want a closer access to Israel proper for a higher casulity count from rocket attacks into Israeli cities.

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Closer access? What are you talking about? Down town Gaza city is only 20 kilometers from Sderot. I thought we were talking about rockets here? A rocket, a real rocket, cover 20 kilometers with little difficulty. If these were real rockets then this little distance would not be an issue. You use the term rockets as if we're talking about a scud or even a katusha type of weapon. These are glorified bottle rockets were talking about. And since you bring it up and as it proves my point, what is the number of casualties inflicted by these terrible weapons? Since you don't know let me tell you. Between 2000 and today there have been 22 Israelis and 1 Thai killed. Wow what a fearsome threat to the existence of Israel.

You need to stop you knee jerk response to support Israel blindly. Recognized that US interests and what Israel perceives to be their interests are not always one and the same. And if you claim that you can separate US and Israelis interests please give us an example.

This is a useless exercise. People who only cite CAMERA, MEMRI, the Washington Report for Near East Affairs are not serious. You are not critical thinkers. You do not look for a true examination of the facts. In many ways you remind me of myself when I was nineteen. I held similar views on Israel and US affairs.

Let me ask you Islandborn, delusionsofNORMALity, and Rusty, have you ever been to a refugee camp - any refugee camp? Bonus points if you've been to a Palestinian refugee camp. Have you been to Gaza or even the West Bank? If yes, in what capacity?

I served my country (America). I spent 15 years in and out of the Middle East including 5 years living in Gaza, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and the West Bank. I spend an additional 5 years living in Jordan where I was responsible for regional operations taking me to the cities and camps of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and back to Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. I have spent the past 5 years providing support for global operations in the Muslim world (Indonesia to Morocco) with a variety of government and private sector concerns. I'll throw in my 2 degrees focused on Middle East Relations and USG certified (and paid for) Arabic language proficiency via training in the US and Tunisia for good measure. I have been shot at repeatedly by all sides to this mess and I have given back. I have the PTSD to show for it.

I started where you are today. I thought that what was good for Israel was good for the US - that our interests were one. But I quickly learned that Americans are not being given the truth. We have been fed a menu of half truths and lies so that we will support the ongoing suppression of the Palestinian national rights and the theft of their land. I understood this after my first visit to the Gaza as a 19 year old wet-behind-the-ears punk. So I studied and I read, from all sources, not just those that I agree with.

Israel is not a democracy - don't fool yourself. Democracies don't occupy and disenfranchise millions of people. Perhaps you could argue Israel is a democracy for Jewish Israelis but that leaves 1/5 of the population out of the equation, not to mention the millions living under occupation. Wow, that is some democracy.

The problem that the US and Israel now face is that they have closed the door to a two state solution, so what is left?

A. Dismantle and withdraw the settlers to create a viable Palestinian state (a recipe for civil war with the religious crazies in Israel and we know who wins that fight).
B. Declare a bi-national state and give everyone the vote within a single polity call it what you want.
C. Expel the Palestinians (very much an option with a government that includes racist like Rafi Etian and Avigdor Lieberman),
D. Continued disenfranchisement of the Palestinians while taking more and more of their land.

So what does that leave us with? A and B are non-starters. C is an option but least preferred due to the ramifications. Which leaves us with D - Israel will become more and more of an apartheid state. That leaves you to defend an increasingly apartheid style regime. Good luck with that. Oh and if you have not lived with the occupation please don't tell me that does not constitute apartheid. I do not want my country going any further down this road. Either we impose a two state solution or we start to withdraw our support from the Israeli state.

So let's hear it Islandborn, delusionsofNORMALity, and Rusty, what are your credentials? What do you bring to the table? I do not expect a serious answer because you are not serious people. Your strategy is to yell and scream, stir up jingoistic anger, and name call. You are not interested in facts because facts force you into uncomfortable realizations.

You bore me by posting drivel and inuendo shrowded in the propoganda nonsense.
Only one Thai worker killed? I'm sure you nean this time, as this has been an ongoing exercize by Hamas. Your attempts to justify terror activities makes me laugh.
Gaza Rocket Attack Kills Thai Worker in Israel - NYTimes.com
Three Israelis killed as Hamas launches revenge attacks - Middle East, World - The Independent
HAMAS Rockets
How many rockets would need to be lobbed twords your schools or houses before taking defensive and offensive action?

Your credentials mean nothing to me other than the fact you can create whetever credentials you wish. But regardless of your "credentials" it doesn't make you right. I too was in the service, I too have studied the situation over there since the day I joined the Air Force using the DEP. (delayed entry program) Since the US was talking of going to war with Iraq, (1978-1979) I studied as much as possible for what I was going to be fighting against. Their ideals, their reasons for ousting the Shaw...and my opinion of the redical muslim thoelogy is not about to be changed by the likes of a supporter of radical terrorism, in the region or around the world.

Israel is an internationally recognized nation state and has the right to defend her borders. Anything past that are Arabs wanting Israelis pushed out of their homeland. I have no vested interest in the conflict at all except for the fact I call a spade a spade. You can call the spade a rake if you'd like, but you would be wrong. Hamas is a militant organization backed by another militant regime in Iran, which has similar aspirations for the rest of non-muslim society. With your credentials, I'm sure you're familiar with the 12th Imam...? Or is that another bit of Jewish propoganda?

Palestinians will keep getting what they are getting, until their Arabic "theological brothers" decide they've done enough harm to them.

Sorry, I just can't wrap my head around drinking that kool-aid.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlpmRMximW4[/YOUTUBE]

Arab nations have censured Israel at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) board meeting, for preventing the Middle East from becoming a nuclear-free region.

In the IAEA board session on Thursday, which addressed Israel's nuclear issue for the first time since 1991, Arab states called on the regime to come clean about its nuclear capabilities and allow international investigations, DPA reported.

"Israel continues to defy the international community, through its continued refusal to accede to the treaty on non-proliferation of nuclear weapons," Arab countries said in a statement.

Israel is widely believed to be the only possessor of a nuclear arsenal in the Middle East. The regime also refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

"We cannot fail but also point out that the concern of the Israeli nuclear danger is reinforced by Israel's aggressive policies towards Arab countries, threatening peace and security in the region."

Over the past years, the IAEA board had put its focus on Iran. However, Arab states finally succeeded to bring the Israeli nuclear weapons program into the spotlight, despite strong opposition from Tel Aviv's Western allies, especially the United States.

In reaction to the move, Tel Aviv issued a statement, criticizing the Arab states for not recognizing Israel.

Meanwhile, the US and the European Union expressed concern over the examination of Israel's case at the IAEA board.

"Singling out Israel for censure is in our view both counterproductive and inappropriate," Glyn Davies, the US ambassador to the IAEA, said.

IAEA board focuses on Israeli 'nukes'

So Rusty's got nothing. He is an arm chair warrior. He does not know what it means to live under occupation. He does not know what it means to need a permit to leave his town, build a house, or even plant a tree. He has not had a son, brother, sister, daughter detained without charges, often for years on end. He has not seen his schools closed for a 3.5 years (kindergarten - university). He has not seen people shot in the streets.

And as usual Rusty does not address my central points about the state of Israeli democracy, the apartheid road they are marching down, or US complicity in these matters. Typical for Rusty, he tries to smear me by portraying me as supporting Hamas and terrorism. Where did I say that Rusty? Opposing the expansionist policies of the state of Israel does not make me a Hamas supporter or a "supporter of radical terrorism" as you charge. Take your tar and feathers somewhere else. They won't stick here.

Here is what I do support, Rusty. I support the democratic process and I believe it was a fatal error for Israel, the US, and the western European powers to undermine the free and fair elections called for and overseen by the US that brought Hamas to power (another Bush triumph). I also support the right to self determination, the right to live without the threat of starvation, and the right to basic freedoms. Israel is not on that page Rusty. So we know where you stand.

And please note, Rusty, despite your rabid and blind support for an expansionist state which disregards human rights at every turn, I am not accusing you of being a support of the racist, terrorist organization Kach or a follower of Meir Kahane, though it would not surprise me if you were.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Your credentials mean nothing to me other than the fact you can create whetever credentials you wish. But regardless of your "credentials" it doesn't make you right.

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Again, Rusty attacks me personally. Why? Because he has can not support his positions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

I too was in the service, I too have studied the situation over there since the day I joined the Air Force using the DEP. (delayed entry program) Since the US was talking of going to war with Iraq, (1978-1979) I studied as much as possible for what I was going to be fighting against. Their ideals, their reasons for ousting the Shaw...

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My god Rusty are you serious? You don't know why they booted the Shah? Operation Ajax, 1953, the CIA overthrew the democratically elected government led by Mohammad Mosaddegh. The rise of fundamentalist Islam was the ultimate blow back. Try reading any intro book to Iran. This is from memory so if it was 1952 please forgive me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

and my opinion of the redical muslim thoelogy is not about to be changed by the likes of a supporter of radical terrorism, in the region or around the world.

Hamas is a militant organization backed by another militant regime in Iran, which has similar aspirations for the rest of non-muslim society. With your credentials, I'm sure you're familiar with the 12th Imam...? Or is that another bit of Jewish propoganda?

---

Again, baseless slander. It's all you have Rusty. That's the best you can do - attempt to discredit me by association. You realize that you discredit yourself with these baseless personal attacks, right? Pathetic but expected. Right out of the AIPAC play book. At least you are a good student of something.

Point of fact Rusty. Significant support for Hamas by Iran is a relatively new phenomenon. It came about largely after the US, Israel, and the EU tried to strangle the democratically elected government elected by the Palestinian people in 2006 - recall that Hamas contested and won those elections. Prior to 2006 there is little evidence of significant direct support beyond the "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" variety. And please, do not try to distort this by saying this demonstrates that I am a supporter of either Hamas or Iran. It's really tired and makes you look bad.

To your twisted point - Palestinians are Sunni Rusty. They do not subscribe to the Shi'a beliefs held by most Iranians. Surely you know this right? We narrowly avoided two Shi'a vs Sunni civil wars (Iraq vs. Iran 1980 - 88) and Shi'a vs. Sunni in Iraq (2003 - 2007). Shi'a / Sunni are about as compatible as Baptist / Mennonite. It is worth noting that Hamas too is a blow back operation funded and supported in its infancy by Israel as an alternative to the PLO.

I see spelling isn't your forte. Apparently neither is history...

@ Island and Rusty

Hamas was democratically elected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883

@ Island and Rusty
Hamas was democratically elected.

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Don't confuse them with facts. It makes them go a little kooky. It does not fit with their vision of the world according to AIPAC.

You need to be careful here, WI. See, you are pointing out a fact that does not fit with their myopic world view. They will fail to address your point. Instead they will charge you with being a Hamas supporter and "a supporter of radical terrorism in the Middle East and around the world." At some point, when they are really against the ropes, expect to be charged with being an anti-Semite. That's when you know you have won. It is usually, though not always, the last card they can play.

Personally, I prefer to go toe to tow with people who know and understand history a bit better. It is more challenging that way. They still end up losing because they are trying to defend the indefensible but at least it is something of a challenge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigsby

Don't confuse them with facts. It makes them go a little kooky. It does not fit with their vision of the world according to AIPAC.

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They claim I just "copy n' paste" when they clearly are not even reading the articles I post. I know all their sources are from the mainstream and lie to no end. Those two are claiming we are the Kool-Aid drinkers when you can just turn on Fox News and CNN and get the same exact information. All just fabrications of what is actually going on.

Foward Magazine is exclusively a Jewish publication and it tends to not tell the truth almost 100 percent of the time.

While the US and the EU have refused to put Israel's nuclear program under the spotlight, Iran's ambassador to the IAEA says Israeli nukes pose a major threat to piece and stability across the world.

Iran's Ambassador to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Ali Asghar Soltanieh slammed Israel's nuclear weapons program on Thursday.

"Its (Israel) nuclear weapons capabilities shall undoubtedly increase the potential threat to peace and security of the Middle East and the world at large," he said.

Israel, which has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), is widely believed to be the only nuclear power in the Middle East, with around 200 warheads in its arsenal, but has maintained a policy of deliberate ambiguity about its capabilities.

Arab nations along with Russia have also censured Israel at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) board meeting, for preventing the Middle East from becoming a nuclear-free region.

Speaking on behalf of the Arab group, Sudan's Ambassador to the IAEA Mahmoud al-Amin told the closed-door session that Israel was a "nuclear danger."

Meanwhile, the US and the European Union expressed concern over the examination of Israel's case at the IAEA board.

"Singling out Israel for censure is in our view both counterproductive and inappropriate," Glyn Davies, the US ambassador to the IAEA, said

The IAEA meeting was held only a day after the UN Security Council (UNSC) imposed a fourth set of sanctions on Iran over its nuclear program.

The imposition of new sanctions is a "clear indication that others, particularly the United States, are following the path of confrontation, as if the [former US President George W.] Bush era is continuing, and that is very disappointing and the slogan of change has not translated into the action," Soltanieh told Press TV after the meeting.

The forth round of UNSC sanctions came after Iran, Turkey, and Brazil signed a declaration on May 17, according to which Iran would ship 1,200 kilograms of its low-enriched uranium to Turkey to be exchanged for 120 kilograms of 20 percent enriched nuclear fuel rods to power the Tehran research reactor, which produces radioisotopes for cancer treatment.

The nuclear declaration gives Iran a guarantee since the low-enriched uranium is to be stored in Turkey and would be returned if Iran does not receive the 20 percent enriched nuclear fuel within one year.

Despite the fact that Iran agreed to conduct the fuel swap in a third country -- a demand by the West that Iran had previously rejected due to guarantee concerns -- on June 9 the UNSC passed a resolution imposing new sanctions on Iran.

Tehran says it sees the declaration as a confidence-building measure that provides an opportunity for cooperation between Iran and the West.

At IAEA, Iran slams Israel nukes

Sure have. Been to Israel twice in my life....saw Ramallah..saw the Deir Ammar refugee camps. And? Traveled the world for 3 years..lived in Holland for a lil bit.....who cares? Sorry, I never got so open minded my brain fell out. Mind you I STUPIDLY voted for Obama and got suckered.....wife too. Wont happen again.

This argument will never end, there's no point. Shits nasty on both sides........its sad for all the innocent children on both sides and we can all agree on that.

This week the Taliban, whose twisted and sick ideology doesnt differ to much from Hamas and Fattah, hung a 7 year old little boy. Yea......I think Im gonna stand with Israel....:stoned:

Taliban hang 7-year-old boy accused of being a spy, suicide bomber kills 40 at Afghanistan wedding

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Originally Posted by Islandborn

This week the Taliban, whose twisted and sick ideology doesnt differ to much from Hamas and Fattah, hung a 7 year old little boy. Yea......I think Im gonna stand with Israel....:stoned:

Taliban hang 7-year-old boy accused of being a spy, suicide bomber kills 40 at Afghanistan wedding

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Wow, that's not even subtle bait and switch. Can't you be a little more deft with your tactics? What does the Taliban have to do with anything? Again, instead of debating the issues at hand you seek to inflame and obfuscate.

Once again genius, I am not defending Hamas, Fatah, or anyone else. So stop trying to paint me with that brush. Otherwise I'm going to have to start accusing you of being a Klan member or some equally unfounded charge.

I do oppose the subjugation of the national rights of another people, especially when it is done in our (USA) name.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Islandborn

This argument will never end, there's no point. Shits nasty on both sides........its sad for all the innocent children on both sides and we can all agree on that.

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You sat on the beaches, you ate in the restaurants, you drove from Haifa to Tel Aviv to Jerusalem without hassles. Life ain't so nasty on the Israeli side. Sucks a lot more for the the kids in Gaza and the West Bank. If you didn't see that then you were walking around with your eyes closed, which seems likely. Don't try to equate the two. There is no comparison. You are smarter than that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Islandborn

... This argument will never end, there's no point. Shits nasty on both sides........its sad for all the innocent children on both sides and we can all agree on that.

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Amen, brother. That is all we all want to see. A world where no innocent child ever has to die or live in terror. It is just sad to see on both sides.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boaz

thats, true. maybe bigoted would be a better description. or just prejudiced. :twocents:

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Jihadi, Islam-o-fascist, haji, rag head - These are racist terms but I'll settle for jingoistic. They are used to evoke a visceral, gut response from an audience that has little understanding of the issues beyond the Fox News / CNN / NYT perspective. They are applied to groups of people, lumping together those that they seek to smear with the truly reprehensible. See Islandboy's post about the Taliban hanging a 7 year old for a good example of a variation on this theme: Taliban = Hamas. You are defending Palestinian rights, therefore you support Hamas and therefore you support the Taliban and therefore you have this 7 year old's blood on your hands.

These tactics are old, transparent, and simplistic; they are indicative of deep seated hatred and fear. I call it for what it is. It has nothing to do with being PC. People who use these terms in this generalized fashion are racists. But I don't expect them to be able to see that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigsby

These tactics are old, transparent, and simplistic; they are indicative of deep seated hatred and fear.

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Not exactly. It can also be a tactic of those that have seen the attrocities over the decades with Arafat as their poster child for hate and terrorism in the name of Allah. I'm hardly against muslims, but I am against terror tactics, using women and children as human shields, killing innocent civilians.
Do you think that by denying their heritage (by attempting to create a new history of the region and it's historical tribes) muslims would be denying their biblical foundation and credibility, and thusly twisting history like they do is likely a crime against Allah? :wtf:

I saw the camps.....saw the poverty. Didn't change my opinions at all....made me wonder how so many people could listen to uneducated fools and outright racists for their leaders. Its the leaders of Palestine that keep their people enslaved, not Israel. Hamas, the Taliban, Fattah, Al Queda.....there all the same. Bunch of religous zealots who want a RADICAL, oppressive, and barabaric, nation of islam throughout the middle east and the world.

Here is some video of Hamas's "spiritual leader" comparing Jewish People to bacteria. In the words of Joseph Georbels......"When one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it....."

MEMRI - The Middle East Media Research Institute

No worries though.....im sure those Nuclear facilities built in a Mountain are for peaceful purposes in Iram......those are some High Class trustworthy cats running Iran.

Feel free to call me Redneck, honky, cracker, whiteboy, christian nut, make fun of God or Jesus....I could care less. Words don't bother me.....ya know....cause they are words and I enjoy freedom of speech wether for or against me......and im not a whiny pussy either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigsby

You sat on the beaches, you ate in the restaurants, you drove from Haifa to Tel Aviv to Jerusalem without hassles. Life ain't so nasty on the Israeli side. Sucks a lot more for the the kids in Gaza and the West Bank. If you didn't see that then you were walking around with your eyes closed, which seems likely. Don't try to equate the two. There is no comparison. You are smarter than that.

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If you believe Islandborn, he's seen everything and been everywhere and probably has 100 lbs of shrimp boiling again. What BS. :twocents:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gypski

If you believe Islandborn, he's seen everything and been everywhere and probably has 100 lbs of shrimp boiling again. What BS. :twocents:

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Deir Ammar is a very small refugee camp south east of Ramallah - about 2 or 3 thousand people. Actually the town and the camp have pretty much grown together over the years. It is UN administered (like all camps) and sits just down the hill from the Ministry of Education and one of two UN run vocational training centers in the Ramallah area. It is a hop skip and a jump away from the Park hotel and it abuts the main Jerusalem to Ramallah road at the south eastern most point. As camps go it is fairly affluent. Ramallah provides a decent source of jobs and camp residents do quite well in comparison to most. Note that camps in Gaza are upwards of 100,000 thousand people cramped on a single square kilometer where jobs are non-existent, not to mention crayons, school books, cardamon and the rest of the stuff on list of goods prohibited by Israel. You haven't seen poverty till you've been to Jabaliyya, Nuseirat, Beach Camp, Sheik Radwan, etc.

If he says he's been there, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Ramallah is a short and easy service taxi ride from Jerusalem. Palestinians are welcoming and hospitable people so long as you are not there to shoot their children, imprison their people, or steal their land. I have little reason to doubt that he's been to Israel and a day trip to Ramallah is easily doable.

I would like to point out that Rusty refrained from direct personal attacks in his last posting. It needs to be recognized. Thank you Rusty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Not exactly. It can also be a tactic of those that have seen the attrocities over the decades with Arafat as their poster child for hate and terrorism in the name of Allah.

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So you admit that racist and jingoistic attacks are part of your tactics. Wow. You sure you don't want to walk that one back?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

I'm hardly against muslims, but I am against terror tactics, using women and children as human shields, killing innocent civilians. Do you think that by denying their heritage (by attempting to create a new history of the region and it's historical tribes) muslims would be denying their biblical foundation and credibility, and thusly twisting history like they do is likely a crime against Allah? :wtf:

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I don't even know where to start with you on this one, Rusty. It is hard to make sense of what you are trying to say here. Let me see if I have this right. You start by saying you are "hardly against muslims" but then in the next sentence you say that to deny they use terror tactics would be "denying their heritage." That's incredible, Rusty. You just said that you think that violence is part of the Islamic tradition which pretty much makes your first statement a lie and you a bigot. Again, is this really what you want to be on the record with here or did it just come out wrong? So, in Rusty's world, it all boils down to a religious fight where Islam is a violent religion whose adherents share a blood lust for Jews? Is that it? Really? I get the feeling that you may be some kind of religious loony yourself, Rusty.

Let's try to deconstruct Rusty's world.

Concerning Arafat and the PLO: The PLO and Arafat formalized their movement in 1964 when Arab socialism and Arab nationalism where at their nadir (Rusty, it means peak) and as such they modeled their movement largely along those lines. Religion was not part of the movement. Where they religious? Sure, many were. Many were not. Moreover, the PLO included Muslims AND Christians. Point being that religion was not the driving force of the movement. Inconvenient but true. The religious movements came much much later thanks to blow back from our failed interventions in the Middle East and Muslim world and after years of West denying Arab demands for a solution based on justice and reciprocity.

Here are a few key dates that cumulatively fueled religious movements in the Middle East - Lebanon (1952 - thanks Roosevelt - did you know that Marines landed in Lebanon in 1952?), Iran (1953 - thanks Roosevelt - we've been over this) and Afghanistan (1980 - 1983 thanks Regan for creating a well armed fundamentalist army - we can review this if you need to). There are many more but these give you a place to start.

Unfortunately, the Arabs in general and Palestinians and Lebanese in particular, came to understand that their leaders were / are corrupt ineffective puppets of the West. They realized that Islamic fundamentalism offered another route to social and political justice. Why? It wasn't what they said, it's what they did. They got things done. They built schools, hospitals, and roads, they established social welfare systems and work programs, and they were seen as pious and free from corruption. On top of that they were successful in confronting the occupation militarily. Something the PLO could never sustain. And let's just be clear, armed resistance to a belligerent occupation is accepted under international law.

Now please Rusty et al, do not try to twist this to portray me as a supporter of terrorism or the killing of women and children, or as a supporter of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, the Sword of the Prophet or any other such organization. I do not. I'm trying to give you some insight as to why and how we got to where we are today. You want to lay it all at the feet of Islam which is both bigoted and wrong. As usual, the truth is far far more complicated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Do you think that by denying their heritage (by attempting to create a new history of the region and it's historical tribes) muslims would be denying their biblical foundation and credibility, and thusly twisting history like they do is likely a crime against Allah?

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You really need to read some history Rusty. Really. What underlays this incredible statement is that you believe that Islam spread so far and fast because of the sword, right Rusty? Islam spread as far and as fast as it did because it granted people rights and it promoted social justice based on morality, Rusty. It granted rights to people who didn't have them. Women, slaves, the dispossessed. That is what attracted early converts. Like any major shift in religious and political power, fighting was part of the equation, but it was not the reason for the success of Islam. Tell me, where did the Jews go to escape the slaughter of the Christian Inquisition? Where did they run to for safe haven? They ran to the Muslim world - what is now Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, and Egypt. Why? Because they knew they would be protected there, that they had rights there.

This has been a lot of reading for you. Are you still with me, Rusty? When I first got involved with this discussion I thought I might have to crack a few books - brush up on some history; that I might get some real debate on some real issues. Turns out I was wrong. Put some god damn facts on the table, not blathering half truths and jingoistic BS. Please. I'm begging for some real discussion here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Islandborn

Here is some video of Hamas's "spiritual leader" comparing Jewish People to bacteria. In the words of Joseph Georbels......"When one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it....."

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It's really funny that you quote Goebbels and then you cite MEMRI - an organization who has been accused of practicing Nazi-like propaganda techniques. (I'm not sure I trust your quote since you can't even spell his name correctly, perhaps you meant gerbils?)

Below is a bit of information about MEMRI. You can find the full article here:

MEMRI's obsessive interest in protecting Israel derives from the people and interests that founded, fund and manage the institute's international operations.

It was founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in the Israel Defense Forces (Intelligence Branch) from 1968 until 1988, acting head of civil administration in the West Bank from 1977 to 1982; and Israeli-born Meyrav Wurmser, an extreme rightwing neoconservative now affiliated with the Hudson Institute.

Meyrav is married to David Wurmser, at one time an American Enterprise Institute "scholar" and then a State Department apparatchik under John Bolton.

Both participated in the collective writing of "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," a seminal 1996 neocon document that advocated an end to negotiations with the Palestinians and permanent war against the Arab world.

They also worked with Douglas Feith, Elliot Abrams, Richard Perle and other rightwing ideologues who promoted and embellished the fiction that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11.

MEMRI has offices in Jerusalem, Berlin, London, Washington and Tokyo, and in a 2006 Jerusalem Post interview, Carmon claimed to have one in Iraq.

It translates film and print into English, German, Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish and Japanese.

Tax returns for 2004 indicate American funding of between two to three million dollars, much of it from conservative donors and foundations - but those who have followed its far-flung operations suspect much higher expenditures.

Besides Carmon, several MEMRI staffers are former Israeli intelligence specialists. Especially troubling are suspected links between MEMRI and the current Israeli intelligence establishment.

According to a 2005 article in Israel's Ha'aretz, the Israeli Defense Forces plants fake stories in the Arab media, which it then translates and tries to retail to Israeli journalists. How much of MEMRI is simply an extension of such IDF operations?