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hardcore newbie:
I think my reply before answers this.Quote:
I think this is why I'd be very hard to convince. For any event, there are a multitude of explanations on how it can occur. Maybe there was in ipod hidden in the donkey's hair, and it was chewing to look exactly like the words that it 'spoke' to me. There are tonnes of possibilities, it seems like whenever there's something we can't explain, people (in general) jump straight to god.
I already agree that God is a possibility. I just think God is highly unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Yes, within myself. Any logic that tries to tell me it's wrong to reach out to those who are lost isn't reasonable. Appraently we can do it in every other area exception reliigion. Which is intersting. And for Christians It always comes with a conversion.Quote:
I'm afraid that by insisting others come to your stand, you are driving them away. Understand that they do not posses what you posses, bro. Try to remember when you were lost, and how you came to understand the Grace of God. Did it come with a conversation? Did it come through an argument, or debate?
I do think there is a way you can approach others the right way without driving them away. But then again sometimes people are just bound to run away because they don't like what you're saying.
That's not what the bible says.Quote:
I don't know your motivation; I only get a glimps of you from what you post. You may be trying to save souls, but that is not your charge.
And this is also a very condescending view point. I am not lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I don't mind debating on philosophical levels and such, but please don't tell people who don't agree with you that they are in need of rescuing.
By all means reach out; I would never tell you otherwise. We are to increase through others what God has given to us. (Remember the talants) You are going to do what you are going to do. I'll not try to stop you. Just remember what is was that turned you.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Discussion is a great thing, but when it turns to argument, there is no win.
Show me where the Bible tells us to save souls, or that 'we' can. Are you God? Are you Christ? Do you really think that 'you' can save someone? We plant seeds, we encourage and instruct. We lead by example, and through our speach, understanding and disposition we make known the Gospel to those 'open' to receive.
:twocents:
We all need love man. We all need life. And we all have a consciencess and a need for peace. When I said that, I wasn't omitting the spiritual evidence, but I was talking about how all the plants and animals look incredibly designed. It's unreasonable to act like it doesn't and that it's unreasonable to consider (highly consider) that it's created.Quote:
So why did you say that you think it's a total farce that people "pretend" to not recognize the existence of god? Other people might not have the same needs as you.
Just because you're happy doesn't mean you're right. Evil people live in happiness and pleasure too.Quote:
And I'm not sure what you mean by being doubtful of my conscious. If it's just a hypothetical, then I'll spell it out and say I'm quite happy with my moral system and my thought process.
I couldn't think of another one at the moment. Let's move on.Quote:
Yeah, and that view is very condescending. There are quite a few analogies you could have chosen, but the parent and child is the one that you chose.
A truly omniscient God couldn't be truly igorant of anything. But I suppose he could just throw things randomly together if he wanted to. But does what we observe in the outside world resemble a jumbled mess?Quote:
that's assuming that this being didn't just throw things together for amusement and surprise. A being wouldn't have to be all knowing to create the universe. really fucking smart? yes. inifinitely smart? not necessarily. I'm sure God could devise a way of creating randomness that not even God would know the outcome of.
Love never grows old. And again, does this reflect what we know about the evidence we have?Quote:
We might be close, but God could just be a prankster. Putting out ideas for everyone to grasp, everything but the right one. Knowing as much as God does, you think It'd have to spice things up from time to time.
Yes, I admit that's what axioms are. But we have the eternal also. And besides, shouldn't we go on the evidence we do have? Don't you think it's at least enough to reach out for God ?Quote:
And again, the pantheism. You said in a subsequent post when I asked why the universe couldn't be "supernatural", you said that the atom was only natural. Yes, that's what evidence points to, I agree, but to think that there's no possibility of the contrary, no matter how small, it's still an assumption that you must make to continue the argument.
I didn't know that was an issue at all. I will review the thread.Quote:
This thread deals with the concept of all powerful beings and all knowing beings conflicting with free will, so instead of having that argument here, feel free to comment on that in the other thread.
Yes, they don't have the same recognition of God we do. That's one of the things that make them so different. But they are different creatures and so behave differently/ held to a different standard, but never anything truly evil. But I think animals have a conscience too. A dog knows when he's done wrong for example.Quote:
I also disagree with this. For many reasons. It's my assumptions that animals don't believe in deities, yet many of them get along fine. Sheep for example
And on that last note btw, animals do not get along always I'm sure sheep have conflicts too. The whole world is in corruption and it's tooth and fang. But I still think they have some recognition of God somehow, or else how could they recognise when they've done wrong, or act the way they do towards humans.
Not condescending at all, Hardcore. Merely a realization after the fact. All mankind is in need of God's grace. Some people just can't see it until they're on the other side.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
Junk
Love
junkyard
Exactly what i'm doing. So there's no problem. exept the gospel is preached to all not just those open to recieve.Quote:
Show me where the Bible tells us to save souls, or that 'we' can. Are you God? Are you Christ? Do you really think that 'you' can save someone? We plant seeds, we encourage and instruct. We lead by example, and through our speach, understanding and disposition we make known the Gospel to those 'open' to receive.
Oh yes, the seed is scattered even on the wayside.
You guys sure are giving my fingers a work out.
What I meant by making it known to those 'open' to receive, is that if they are not 'open' to receive, they won't receive. We simply can't make them, ya know?
looking incredibly designed, is again, purely subjective. Also, if we assume that these are the best designs, i don't think it's unreasonable that after a long long long long time, that the best designs are the ones that we see. We wouldn't see a bunch of shit that doesn't work, because... well... it doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Well, I'm not doubtful of my conscience, and i don't doubt yours. So I guess we'll move one from this too. [/quote]Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Duck billed platypus. Even marijuana, to me, looks pretty damn jumbled. Appearance, again, is subjective. What looks organized to you may be disorganized to me, and vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
It'd explain a lot of things, like... hmmm, what example do I like to use a lot? talking animals? what better way to mess with someone than to make a donkey talk. Lots of things in religion seem like a guy who just says random things for kicks... Don't wear this, don't use pillows... STAND ON ONE LEG FOREVER!Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
not really. If god is this hidden to me and he, for whatever reason, needs me to recognize him, he can always take my open invite to chat and shoot the shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
maybe you'll actually answer the question I've posed, no one else has :pQuote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I think they feel too. But if animals can get along without god (assumed), then why can't humans? You think it'd be easier for us to get along than animals because we (presumably, again) have higher reasoning skills, and can see the benefit of having working together.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
It is condescending, by it's very definition. You view yourself to have something that i don't, and in turn, you have the best prize, so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
There's nothing for me to "find". I'm not lost.
:p it'll make you a better typer, remember to use home keys.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Actually it's funny, I'm a self taught typer. I use my entire left hand fairly properly, but I only use the first and middle finger on my right hand. I only use the left shift and I only use my left thumb for the space bar. I also look at the keys most of the time, not because I don't know where the keys are, but simply out of habit.
I type at around 80 wpm tho :D
I have something that very few have, but it's not because I am favored over you or anyone else; I merely wanted what I knew I was without. It wasn't until I gained that which I was without, until I realized that all mankind is "lost". Sounds a bit condescending perhaps, but only because 'you' perceive it to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
I'm no better than you, Hardcore, when we claim to be better than others, we become high minded, boastful, self-righteous, and overly prideful. This in turn creates a great conflict within us, and often times, damages the spirit of those we view as being less than ourselves. Every single person is an extension of God; we are what we were made to be.
Listen, God views us all in the same light and His love is offered to all mankind. The difference is that those who embrace, and abide in God??s love, allow that love to guide them. Through that love, they become better able to free themselves from the forces that harm them inwardly. We should therefore, accept one another equally, keeping in mind that we all partake in the human experience, and that all are sinners. Absolute perfection is beyond any of us; we all fall short of his glory.
By understanding this truth, we allow ourselves to have empathy, as well as compassion towards those who are bound in the ways of darkness. We come to realizes that they are simply unaware of the freedom that comes from embracing the love, or spirit of God. When we do this, we become better able to forgive and accept no matter where others are in life, and no matter how much we feel we??ve been wronged. We also become better able to forgive ourselves when we slip and do wrong to others, as we all do.
We wrestle against our own human natures, and the human nature of others. We wrestle against the spiritual forces of darkness that have rule and authority over us naturally. We wrestle against the powers that bind mankind in spirit. We wrestle against anger, bitterness, un-forgiveness, greed, lust, contempt, jealousy, envy, pride , fear, and every other spiritual force that destroys the inner man. These are the very roots of sin, through which every act against our Lord, ourselves, and our neighbors are committed.
This is why we are lost, Hardcore. We all wrestle with these 'spiritual chains', but these can be overcome through Christ and His Love. Think for one moment what life would be like without even the remnant of love we do know. I can only imagine the horror, and emptiness, and hopelessness such a life would entail. Love is mankind??s comfort, it is our safety, our peace, and our life force. Without it, this world would be a very dark, lonely, and empty place to dwell. It would be as if we were in a grave, rotting and decaying without hope of ever sustaining life at all. The term ??hell ?? might be appropriate to describe such an existence, or state of mind reflecting the darkness of the grave, where we are no longer capable to realize the Love of our God. The truth is that even with the remnant of love we do know, most are still in a metaphorical grave, unaware of the blessings that God??s love provides.
There are some, who have experienced so little love in their lives, that they do not recognize what it is at all. This is a sad truth that we cannot close our eyes to. Without love mankind is lost; we cannot be free from our metaphorical ??graves? until we allow love to mature within us. Love must be cultivated as if it were a seed, with patience, sincerity, and faith. When we do this, and keep our hearts focused on it, we grow stronger in God??s grace. This in turn creates a great sense of freedom, joy, and peace within ourselves. We must learn to cultivate love, and also plant it in others, bringing its increase in the world we live in. This is the Christian Charge. Although, it is seen in few.
Once you realize the freedom and the finding, you want others to experience it as well. Only with a pure love from the Father can we acheive this state of peace.
Junk
p.s sorry bout the length, bro. :D
junkyard said:
Then why would Jesus tell us to be?Quote:
Absolute perfection is beyond any of us; we all fall short of his glory.
It's Gods grace that works in us and gives us the power to overcome sin. Those that walk by the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Also,Quote:
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The bible teaches that those those are saved are no longer in sin as long as they walk by the spirit. But the flesh is corrupt, and so we war and struggle with the flesh and perservere until the end, when we will be freed from this body of death.Quote:
Romans 7:16-18 (King James Version)
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Quote:
Romans 7:21-25
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
You don't have to be "better" than someone to be condescending. All you need is a perceived advantage. that perceived advantage would be salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
I don't believe in sin. And I don't accept others equally. I see no reason to. I generally love people, but if you do things that I'd consider immoral, then you don't deserve my love. But, to those people, they don't care for my love in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
I rarely feel wronged, so I guess I don't see this need for forgiving others at all costs, because I rarely have to forgive anyone in the first place. I've surrounded myself with people (by chance, are mostly agnostics and atheists, oddly enough) who are good, we don't need God to be civil toward one another. We care for each other because we care for each other, not because we're enlightened by an outside source.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
Who is this 'we' that you describe? these feelings are things that I can honestly say I rarely feel. A fear of heights, maybe, but that's about it. I don't wrestle with any of that, ever. I can honestly say that I get mad about once every two years, have never felt jealousy, I'm decently humble (except when describing my humbleness), I don't lust.... This list of things you describe is nearly alien to me. I understand why some people can feel them, but it just doesn't happen to me. So I fail to see why I need God to rid myself of any of these feelings when i don't get them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
I have freedom. I want others to experience a life with only good emotions, as i do, they don't need God to do it either, they just have to realize that these emotions do no good.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
And don't worry about the length of the post, it's only scripture that I dread reading, unless it's with my family. they've earned the time that i spend reading scripture with them. So while I don't agree with it, or even some of the messages, I enjoy reading with them. Much of my family desperately want me to believe, so seeing me read the bible puts a smile on their face, which makes me happy in turn.
First, if you think that you can live a perfect life and "Never" even stumble then you are sadly mistaken. It is our curse and who we are. Yes, Jesus tells to be perfect, but this does not mean a literal perfection. We are made clean through Him, and through the spirit. A washing if you will, a spiritual baptism. This is the gift of salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Junk
It sounds like you're very similar to how I was a couple yeras ago, hardcore. I still submit that all men are equal, tho. Do you feel like you are above others? Below? You never feel aggression, envy, bitterness, contempt? Maybe you're already where you need to be, then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
:D
H.b. said:
It's just like it says in scripture,Quote:
I rarely feel wronged, so I guess I don't see this need for forgiving others at all costs, because I rarely have to forgive anyone in the first place. I've surrounded myself with people (by chance, are mostly agnostics and atheists, oddly enough) who are good, we don't need God to be civil toward one another. We care for each other because we care for each other, not because we're enlightened by an outside source.
Everyone has thier own set of rules.Everyone has thier own "love". But God's ules arn't mans rules and God's love isn't mans love.Quote:
Luke 6:32-34
32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
And of course I don't believe you're being honest with yourself. ANd no one can prove your conscience to you but yourself.
It depends on what you mean by 'above'. I'm happy that I love my life, maybe more so than others. If this makes me above someone else than so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
I feel aggressive when I'm being competitive. Only in sport, never in life.
My dad in particular wonders why I don't search for a higher paying job so I can get the nice things in life. I tell him I already have the nice things.
Bitter... contempt? about what? I have nothing to be bitter about or contempt anyone.
I know I'm already where I need to be, which is why I find the need for god talk... almost silly. I know that I'm not lost, so when people talk as if I (or anyone else without god) am lost, I have a hard time believing what they say. The idea that without God you are missing something is truly ridiculous in my eyes, and very pre-judgemental as well. It's a very weird viewpoint to me.
Imagine if i were to tell you that the only way to truly be happy was to learn French (not that I'm very good at it, just as an example). You'd think I was off my rocker :p You'd see no reason for it. And if I told you that you'd be lost without it, that it's the only way you'd find happiness, and the only way you'd ever realize it were to learn French and experience it for yourself. And if I passed it off as fact, and spoke about it with such certainty, over and over, it might be a little patronizing.
So I hope that you now see what I mean when I say that certain comments about being lost are condescending :)
If I sin, it isn't me that that sins but my flesh in it death throes.Quote:
Junkyard said:
First, if you think that you can live a perfect life and "Never" even stumble then you are sadly mistaken. It is our curse and who we are. Yes, Jesus tells to be perfect, but this does not mean a literal perfection. We are made clean through Him, and through the spirit. A washing if you will, a spiritual baptism. This is the gift of salvation.
We have God's grace and abide in God's love by abiding in him. But to abide in him, we must keep his commandments.Quote:
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
It is literal when he says BE perfect just as the father is perfect. It means DOQuote:
John 15:9
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
That's the very context of the chapter. Do righteousness, and be perfect.
Quote:
Mathew 5:39-48
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I'm being totally honest with myself. What's so hard to believe about a man that realizes that these emotions aren't good things? I realized this at a young age. I also never feel stress, something else I find to be a negative. But it's weird. it's not like I feel myself feeling these things, realizing i don't want them, and then pushing them aside. they never surface in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
If you don't believe me, that's fine. But why should I listen to a man that doesn't even trust me to be honest, even if it's only with myself? I have no reason to lie to you, nor myself. It serves no purpose.
edit* I also think it's odd that "of course [you] don't believe [me]". What's so "of course" about it that you can't believe me?
H.b. said:
Being without God isn't missing anything??Quote:
he idea that without God you are missing something
You're comparing God to learning french???Quote:
Imagine if i were to tell you that the only way to truly be happy was to learn French
Slow down H.b., you're about to take this discussion to another level.
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
in a way yes. I'm just trying to show you how silly it looks to me to tell me that I'm lost because I don't have God. By your reaction, it seems that the comparison did exactly what it was intended to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Edit* Just wondering, where are you getting h.b from? I *just* noticed now :p
I think condescending might be a wrong term here. I can only speak for myself, but I do not feel superior to anyone. I view everyone in equal terms. We are all human, we all make mistakes, and we all need love. This is where God comes in, bro. (God is Love) Most of us have experienced only remnants of love. Meaning we have only known love in measure, whether it came from family or from friends. Very few of us however, know and understand the power of God??s Love, and what His grace can do for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
If you feel satisfied, who am I to doubt you, Hardcore? I think the most important thing is to just be honest with yourself. Not that you're not being honest. You seem to be a geniune person, sincere, hopeful, and you have a calm about you that is quite refreshing.
I was merely attempting to help you understand my side of the fence, so that you might be better equipped if you ever earnestly gave God a chance. Christ tells us to enter in at the strait gate. I personally believe that love is that gate, and Christ the gatekeeper.
Much Love
Junk
Exactly, do as Christ commands with all your heart follow him. but don't suggest that we can even come close to a literal perfection in this life and world we live in. All fall short of God's glory, none are good but the father.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
We can keep our minds on his love, and keep is spirit churning within us, but we are sinners mate. Sorry to burst your bubble.
It almost reminds me of the humble publican:
The publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Junk
Oh yeah, sorry about messing up the name Hardcore newbie. It says new-bee, so that just kind of stuck in my head.
I dare ask, who is kimbo peppers?
Again, a condescending doesn't necessarily mean the person thinks they're above someone else, just that they have an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
How would you describe the person who tells you the you need French? It looks like I need a different word that better suits what I'm trying to say.
Thanks. Again for a comparison, but not meant to offend, for me to give god a chance would be like rearranging my life to fit a lie that I don't believe in. There are many things in the bible that I disagree with. Some things just seem too far fetched for me to take seriously. The Xian God is really the only God I know anything about, besides a bit of greek mythology and other historical religions.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
If it's only about love, count me in. But to go against my mind to fit a God into my life which I personally can not see, have no evidence of, and frankly I don't even believe exists, it does nothing for me. it doesn't match my love. (I know NiA, I know, God's love is different than man's love)
Junkyard,
I know this might sound different to you, but I'm not a sinner. A sinner is a person who sins. The bible on several occasions makes this distinction, both in the the new and old testament. :
and others.Quote:
1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
The point is, yes we stumble but I don't sin anymore. It's my flesh that's doing it, and I'm fighting against it.
In any case, this thread is starting to get off topic junkyard, and if you want we can continue this elsewhere but I want this thread to focus on the topic I started it for.
Ahhh, I was just wondering the thought process.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
And Kimbo Peppers is a combination of Brian Peppers and Kimbo Slice.
Both of these people are very popular avatars on another message board I go to about mixed martial arts fighting, so I combined the two to make the most ultimate popular avatar ever. Everyone who sees it on the other site laughs their ass off because I've combined the two most popular avatars, but it loses some of it's flair on this site. Only two people that I know of even knew who these people were :p
SO I have a question to get back to the topic.
What good reason does anyone have to doubt they exist?
*they*? Kimbo and Peppers? :p j/kQuote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
the fact that god created adam and eve without knowledge, so without knowledge they can't make sound judgement. so when they disobey god, god was displeased and now the only way into forgiveness is to believe in him and accept him into your heart (by whichever method), and if not you get the razz (polite way of saying "go to hell")? Seems kinda... made up to me.
And it's not a post from me if i don't mention talking animals :)
Hardcore Newbie said:
they knew enough not to eat from the tree.Quote:
the fact that god created adam and eve without knowledge, so without knowledge they can't make sound judgement.
I'm done with this thread for tonight. I'll come back when my brain (and everyone elses") hasgotten some sleep.
I'm only up because I'm doing tonnes of laundry. I live in an apartment, so the laundromat downstairs never has anyone there this late at night.... or early in the morning :P Perfect time to do laundry :DQuote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
About the same amount or reasons that we have to doubt that they dont exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
The playing field is even, as far as I am concerned. Its a quagmire. No one can truely prove that god(s) exist with current evidence available, but no one can disprove it either. That is literally why the call it faith.
In my personal opinion, if a person is leading a good life, no matter in who's name it is in, then why should they change their life to fit another god(s) ways?
I think we can all agree, loosely, on the ideas of good and bad, right and wrong, morals if you will. Now I have heard it mentioned that God gave us these, but I have a statement, if you will, in regards to this...
YOUR God gave YOU those. Call it my "faith", or whatever you will, but I think that it is very assuming to assume that morals came from one source. Our society as a whole in this country, and the world itself as well, has adapted our moral stances many many times, and will continue to do so. Chrisitian God may have given you your morals, and of that I do not doubt. The bible may have helped shaped current morals, but I believe that morals go above god(s). If god(s) do exist, our freewill was the greatest gift that they gave us. And in that freewill they gave us the ability to have morals, and let those morals be whatever we wish, as a part of our freewill. It doesnt mean that god doesnt have his set rules of whats good and bad, but they let us choose what we ourselves feel is good and bad.
Quick slightly over-exaggerated for the point example... Stealing is considered bad, and is stated so in the bible, correct? What about stealing to feed your family? What about stealing to save a life? What about stealing to protect the person whom you stole from? So many nuances, that can never fully be covered by any rules laid down in a book or by a god. Do you just go with the blanket ruling that stealing is bad, and leave it at that? Or do YOU have specific things out of that list that you feel is ok considering the circumstances? Things like that take consideration of the entire event, not just the one damning part of it, and its our freewill that lets US decide what we feel is right and wrong as a whole, and as an individual, even if a god(s) may have given the original ruleset to play by.
If you ever get a chance natureisawesome, I recommend reading through a few other religious texts, and to take the time to notice the similarities and differences in the "rules" of all of them. You would be shocked at how similar, yet so dis-similar they can be. It also helps put things in perspective, and to allow you to see where others are coming from who follow such religions. THe bible made more sense, on certain levels, after having read through the Qur'an and the big Buddhist texts(Four Noble Truth's, Noble Eightfold Path, the precepts), then it did before. Things just came into a bigger perspective, if you get what I am saying.
IDK, you might enjoy it, you might not, but I always think that full understanding of something you believe in is important, otherwise you may find you are following nothing but lies, or have misunderstood/interpretted something critical.
This is from a post a way back I overlooked.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
You don't need to see a miracle to recognize God's existence. You don't have to see a miracle to recognize God's nature. If you did, then god definitely would show you a miracle. Since you don't need to be shown a miracle, and it's required that man shall live by faith then you're excuseless and you're only testing God. The evidence to recognize God isn't something real hard to grasp. It's everywhere and so plain and obvious that it's insulting to ask to see a miracle. People tell themselves they can't see it and they don't. They choose to have no faith.
I just told you what's so insulting about It. You don't need it and you're testing God. No that's not an opinion that's what God's word says.Quote:
Harcore Newbie:
What's so insulting about wanting to see a miracle? I can say the exact opposite that you just said, and I'd be just as right. You're stating opinions. Besides, you say god is all powerful, so it literally takes *nothing* for him to show me. I've already an open invitation to any God, god, deity or anything of the like to have a conversation with me. No takers so far (besides Flying Spaghetti Monster, of course).
Well yes I am going by God's word and record. And that is proven True. I don't believe anything is possible. I go with the evidence. It's not highly unlikely. And how can you judge what is more likely or not, if anything is possible??Quote:
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
With the information there is to know about God, it's enough to have faith. You don't need the bible to know there's the all loving God in the bible. And why aren't you as suspicious about all history? Do you know there wasn't a talking donkey? I know I can't prove something i can't show you, but at the same time you have no way of knowing and the possibility still lies open there could be one in the past. So take care to recognize your bias.
Harcore newbie:
Do I know there wasn't a talking donkey? No, of course not, it's impossible to prove that something DIDN'T HAPPEN. I realize that nearly anything is possible (which I state clearly and often). if I'm biased for living in reality and realize the possibility of a talking donkey is highly unlikely, then call me bias.
h.n.:
Yes i believe that a talking donkey spake. I'd have to check out and compare that to what we know about the universe and everything we know and see if it can be verified.Quote:
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I'll ask you a few questions about a talking donkey. Do you believe that a donkey has ever spoken? And if so, why aren't you be suspicious? If you're not suspicious, would you believe me if I told you that my dog told me that god doesn't exist?
I think universe and nature and all creation being as amazing as it is is many many times more miraculous and amazing than a talking donkey.Quote:
I'm not suspicious of most history because unlike a talking donkey, it's.... what's the word.... believable. The only other books I've read with talking animals were called fairy tales.
That may be so, but that doesn't invalidate what I said. I know some people get it in the gut and in both sides of the chest but generally it's around that area. I think actually the heart thing I mentioned happens to everyone but may not remember. Different parts of our bodies feel differently under different emotions.Quote:
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Not just values and beliefs. Ultimate values. Spiritual Truth. I don't believe that our feelings are in our brains of course. I think there's a good deal to show this is true. Also, something I've noticed. Have you ever noticed that whenever you feel real deeply about somethings, like if you feel very strongly towards a girl of if you're in emotional pain it hurts right in your heart, I mean your physical heart.
Nope. I get mine in the gut. More assumptions.
You can't be serious. I'd like to hear this one, perhaps. As long as it's not dirty.Quote:
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I find that interesting and I'm not saying the physical heart can feel, but I've thought about it and if there's a designer I think that would be the perfect place to make that connection you know? from the spiritual heart to the beating heart? we we think of the beating of the physical heart, it's very representative of what we recognize as our heart, our center of feeling and of sentient perception.
All subjective. I'd say the perfect places for love would be in the genitals or the fingers. It's just my view of the world.
Humanism or atheism the point I made applies to both of them. But humanism is an organized religion. And don't say they're not, because they admit it themselvesQuote:
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
According to the Humanist Manifestos I & II: Humanism is a philosophical, religious, and moral point of view. The Humanist Manifestos declare:
I don't care what the definition of humanism is. You stated that atheists subscribe to humanism. A very blanket statement used so that you can further your points.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Logically, atheists have to provide a moral code from outside of their belief system which which can't provide any. Richard Dawkins even claimed that he was a passionate Darwinist as to how we got here, but a passionate anti-Darwinist when it came to morality.
Logically, atheists (or anybody, really) don't *have* to do anything. Each person is an individual. What does richard dawkins have to do with anyone else as a person? he's a famous atheist? Big deal, he doesn't speak for every atheist on the planet.
If people don't have to do anything then why do we feel it neccesary to have a government to keep things in order? And why in a democracy do they feel the need to have control over others to establish why they think is right? Obviously they are using they're pushing thier moral choice on others as Truth we're all accountable to , but when confronted then it's everybody's own choice and we all have different personal standards. Like I said, lots of people define love differently, but everyone (just about) believes in Love. Can anyone say they hate love??
So then it's not wrong for them if they rob and murder you if they feel "justified"?Quote:
Also, some people may be immoral by my standard, but not by their own. So *logically*, nobody on the face of the earth is required to provide their moral code.
Wrong. Because the point is that the ideology they learned from the world taught them that that was ok . Christian doctrine doesn't teach people to do things like the spanish inquisition. Trust me, I hate the roman catholic church more than you do .Quote:
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Here's what can happen when angry and hurt people believe there is no standard of morality, that they can make their own rules:
Hardcore newbie:
I could throw up a link to the spanish inquisition and use that of my basis to describe anyone who is religious anyone believes in a higher power, and what they do when they think their morality is being guided by a higher power. it serves no purpose.
Jamstigator said:
I wish you would realize that evidence is in the eye of the beholder. And the truth is I don't think that you need to assume anything to know that you're thinking.Quote:
'Faith' is just a nicer word for 'assume'. If you have faith in something for which there is no evidence (e.g., something that can be replicated by others and produces consistent results), then you are just assuming that what you've been told (or what you feel) is the truth. Truth should never be assumed. Question everything, and demand evidence. This is how we stopped thinking that God makes meteor storms to punish the wicked or that women who can swim must be witches.
Once again, the religion is blamed for something it doesn't teach. But what about other ideologies/religions? I think yes.Quote:
250 years ago, if they threw you in the river and you *didn't* drown, they burned you, because they had faith that this was God's will, to burn witches, and they had faith that you *were* a witch if you didn't drown, thus making burning the skin from your bones the 'right' and 'moral' thing to do. These are the roads down which faith takes people. Much of the world has outgrown such superstitious nonsense, but it is thriving in the U.S.
I think evolution is the main factor why there has been more war in this past century. I'm not sure, but I think there's been more war in this century than any in history. Is it the teachings of Jesus that caused hitler to adopt a master race ideology and the rest of it? How about Pol Pot? Or stalin? Or many others. It's evolution that's the foundation for these evil ideologies.Quote:
Faith in the Islamic model of life and of the afterlife is what drives virtually all the suicide bombings in the world today. They have faith that *their* beliefs are right and yours are wrong. You have faith that they're wrong and you're right. If everyone would just stop with the assumptions and start asking for demonstrable proof, violence would go way way down.