wtf happened before the big bang?

String theory, heh. They leave the answer to my question to the very last sentence lol.

As the name suggests it is a theory, a popular one atm. I guess the 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time are for sure, cuz that's what we live in, but all the rest is speculation, and even now some of today greatest physicists are trying to determine what theory of many theories is correct.
I havn't done my research on this subject, so I can't say much. It is pretty interesting how far reaching conclusions you can draw from quantum mechanics.

Well, I guess I can see how you'd see that god could be constantly jumping from one dimension to another in our viewpoint, and he can do that because he lives in a higher dimension. It makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Justum17

But still, two different places
two different times
still both correct.

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Yep, that's what Einstein's theories are all about.

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Well, I guess I can see how you'd see that god could be constantly jumping from one dimension to another in our viewpoint, and he can do that because he lives in a higher dimension. It makes sense.

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God is eternal then he is also the foundation of all existence. Therefore if there are other dimensions there is no way he can totally fit into any dimension. He's too big.

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Originally Posted by NextLineIsMine

Very slowly but very surely gravity is pulling everything back together again, eventually all matter will join a giant clump that will keep gaining density until it explodes out again like the last big bang

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Thats just not true guy.. The universe is expanding ..and its expanding at an ever increasing rate. The more it expands the faster its expanding..

There is a view that at some point the total mass will hit a point where the expansion stops and it starts to compress but there is absolutely no evidence that that is happening. This view is based on the observed mass and a model that says that at some point the total gravitational effect across the universe will stay the same but the energy converted into kinetic (and other forms) at the time of the BB will decrease untill the gravity overall over powers the energy imparted to expand...

But the existing body of evidence shows a ever faster expansion rate. Goggle the COBI observations to get a bit of insight on the present understanding of the construct.

Paul

Quantumist:

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Thats just not true guy.. The universe is expanding ..and its expanding at an ever increasing rate. The more it expands the faster its expanding..

There is a view that at some point the total mass will hit a point where the expansion stops and it starts to compress but there is absolutely no evidence that that is happening. This view is based on the observed mass and a model that says that at some point the total gravitational effect across the universe will stay the same but the energy converted into kinetic (and other forms) at the time of the BB will decrease untill the gravity overall over powers the energy imparted to expand...

But the existing body of evidence shows a ever faster expansion rate. Goggle the COBI observations to get a bit of insight on the present understanding of the construct.

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The evidence shows there's not enough mass for recontraction.

You believe.. To believe is to set aside logical discourse and there is no use in debate ..

I, on the other hand, Believe in Nothing.. Ever.. I know, I think I know or I do Not Know , that being the case any discussion is useless.

I could argue each and every point you try to make on your version of god, There are many, many versions that have filled mens minds over our very,very,very short time of cognizances, but none would be conceivable by a believer.. so I won't get anymore into such a personal issue..

You should hold your beliefs close as from your post you have no idea of state of the art in science , how evolution works, how the bible was put together, how quantum mechanics works, etc. You see miracles where known science dwells ..

Simple observations are over looked like Adam and Eve having two sons.. where did their wives come from to populate this little ball.. At the size of Noah's Ark as stated in the bible how did he fit 2 of each Bug on it much less anything else. If you wish to conversate in a science forum it would be good to actually understand science first.

Just MHO

Quantummist:

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You believe.. To believe is to set aside logical discourse and there is no use in debate ..

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Where did this come from? And no you're wrong. I've said several times now that all of our logic is built upon beliefs, axioms if you will. Your axiom being that your mind and logic is a valid tool to begin with. If you'd like to understand how my faith is valid in a debate, I suggest you review my comments in the thread I started here: http://boards.cannabis.com/spiritual...h-science.html

In any case, I don't know where all this came from. All I said was that there wasn't enough mass for reconstruction. Are you trying to cut me out of a debate because you don't like my beliefs?

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I on the other hand, Believe in Nothing

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If that's what you believe, then you're ignorant of your own process of logical deduction.

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You should hold your beliefs close as from your post you have no idea of state of the art in science , how evolution works, how the bible was put together, how quantum mechanics works, etc. You see miracles where known science dwells ..

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These are personal attacks, and I'm really suprised that you would make such unfounded comments. How do you know whether I know how the bible was put together or not? No, I admit I don't know how quantum mechanics work. And I don't need to. I don't see how evolution works, because it doesn't.

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Simple observations are over looked like Adam and Eve having two sons.. where did their wives come from to populate this little ball.. At the size of Noah's Ark as stated in the bible how did he fit 2 of each Bug on it much less anything else. If you wish to conversate in a science forum it would be good to actually understand science first.

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I can easily answer both these questions, but I won't. I'll let you suffer in your ignorance.

You have a nasty attitude and I see no sign of maturity. I think that should be addressed before anyone even considers talking let alone debating with you.

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Originally Posted by MadSativa

or is it nothing and everything??? by the way your name is cool

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Thanks.. the names sorta stuck for a long time.. and its No Thing. I tried to do a play on words,, until time 0 there was not matter.. So before the BB there was No Things there was energy and it would have occupied no space and had infinite density, was ultimately chaotic, and was of a unified form that was indefinable.

Only after time 0 when matter was converted could we define space and the relative interactions of all the little balls of stuff..

So before the BB there was No Thing

their was never a time 0, time transeds dimention and the big bang. Before our big band I think their was just the same as now but different. I too think that big bangs happen quite often, and I like to think no matter how often they happen were are still unique as a lifeform.

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Originally Posted by MadSativa

their was never a time 0, time transeds dimention and the big bang. Before our big band I think their was just the same as now but different. I too think that big bangs happen quite often, and I like to think no matter how often they happen were are still unique as a lifeform.

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I would like to think we're unique also but being that we are but the hair, on the back of the mite, on the back of the flea, on the back of the bird, on the back of the elephant, I tend to think we are only wonderious in our own egotistical minds.

Look about the Universe we are not even detectable as being here from just a measly short 100 lights years away. Man has long thought he was the center of the universe that all of what we observe is there for US alone. Thats but the self serving ego of a tiny little creature that on the scale of our universe is not significant enough to rate a glance.

Say out there somewhere theres a planet that orbits a twin sun and has a population many times ours. Should they have the ego to think they are the reason we are here, That they are the creatures the whole universe was made for.

Or should not we think that we are but the host for bacteria that rule this world as there are more of them in you than You in you. And since we have only walked this ball a few million years and only began to seek to know the universe a few thousands years ago should not the Birds be the ones that should have the ego as they have thrived for some 200 millions of years and for all we know their minds may understand the universe much better than we. and it is us thats not evolved enough to have brains able to understand what they take for granted or even the mental ability to ask them.

"Man is to stupid to know how stupid he is" prm

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Originally Posted by Quantummist

should not the Birds be the ones that should have the ego as they have thrived for some 200 millions of years and for all we know their minds may understand the universe much better than we. and it is us thats not evolved enough to have brains able to understand what they take for granted or even the mental ability to ask them.

"Man is to stupid to know how stupid he is" prm

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Perhaps, but the fact they spend hours fighting their reflextion in a window argues against it.

"Before the big bang, God was creating the hell for those who ask such questions" - some witty one :p

It's really like asking "where did god come from". The most basic questin of all, why is there something, rather than nothing. And neither science or religion offers any answer.

This is so stupid. It looks like I'm talking to myself, cuz whoever I was talking to deleted his posts lol.

I never delete posts. You can't take back what you said. You can say you were wrong, but you still have to admit to saying it.

I remember reading a few months back on Learn More at Space.com. From Satellites to Stars, NASA information, Astronomy, the Sun and the Planets, we have your information here. ,or another similar site, about scientists looking into a way to view beyond the beginning of our universe. There was a way they can fold the outward acceleration back in on itself to view what came before the big bang. Pretty interesting. I culdn't find the story though. That'd be intense to see though. :stoned:

I myself think a cyclic, or renewable universe with perhaps many thousands of smaller universes budding off is most plausible. This is similar to a string theory universe where there is one large universe that compresses into another smaller but progressivly bigger universe(such as our is accelerating outwards today) until it reaches a max point and starts shrinking down into another new universe. :thumbsup:

Here are some more interesting links regarding the beginning of the universe:
1. SPACE.com -- New Theory: Universe Was Born in a Black Hole
2.SPACE.com -- In New Theory of Universe, Time Never Ends
3.Sentient Developments: The Universe is Freakin' Massive, Dude


THE UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING!! IT ISN"T BEING BUNCHED BACK TOGETHER BY GRAVITY YET. Dark matter and Dark energy act as a negative gravity and pushes everything away. Galaxies and local galaxiy systems aren't affected as much b/c the gravitational pull is soo intense, but in the spaces between the clusters of galaxies... space is expanding. :wtf:... yea
SPACE.com -- Universe Expansion is Accelerating, UK and Australian Researchers Say

The universe is just huge! Lets look at it this way....seriously check this out!!
According to the standard inflationary model of cosmology, the visible portion of our universe, the one mapped by our telescopes is an infinitesimally small speck in a much larger universe of at least 10 to the power 35 light-years across!

Admittedly this number is really, really big, and almost impossible to imagine. So lets shrink everything down, WAY down, just so we can get a better grasp of it. Let's imagine that the entire universe that we have seen in all the worlds telescopes, all the galaxies, all trillion of them, extending out 13 billion light years in every direction is shrunk down to the size of a golf ball.

If we do a volume calculation, the actual universe contains 10 to the power 60 of those golf balls! Wow, I guess we didn't shrink things down far enough, but this will have to do. So how big a volume would 10 to the power 60 golf balls fill up? Try a sphere 850 light years across! So imagine a mass of golf balls that big, and each one of those golf balls contains all the stars and galaxies that we can see through our telescopes!! :stoned:

It's pretty intense when you sit down and think about it, especialy when your ripped on some good "thinking" herb.:jointsmile::stoned:

I remember reading a few months back on Learn More at Space.com. From Satellites to Stars, NASA information, Astronomy, the Sun and the Planets, we have your information here. ,or another similar site, about scientists looking into a way to view beyond the beginning of our universe. There was a way they can fold the outward acceleration back in on itself to view what came before the big bang. Pretty interesting. I culdn't find the story though. That'd be intense to see though. :stoned:

I myself think a cyclic, or renewable universe with perhaps many thousands of smaller universes budding off is most plausible. This is similar to a string theory universe where there is one large universe that compresses into another smaller but progressivly bigger universe(such as our is accelerating outwards today) until it reaches a max point and starts shrinking down into another new universe. :thumbsup:

Here are some more interesting links regarding the beginning of the universe:
1. SPACE.com -- New Theory: Universe Was Born in a Black Hole
2.SPACE.com -- In New Theory of Universe, Time Never Ends
3.Sentient Developments: The Universe is Freakin' Massive, Dude


THE UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING!! IT ISN"T BEING BUNCHED BACK TOGETHER BY GRAVITY YET. Dark matter and Dark energy act as a negative gravity and pushes everything away. Galaxies and local galaxiy systems aren't affected as much b/c the gravitational pull is soo intense, but in the spaces between the clusters of galaxies... space is expanding. :wtf:... yea
SPACE.com -- Universe Expansion is Accelerating, UK and Australian Researchers Say

The universe is just huge! Lets look at it this way....seriously check this out!!
According to the standard inflationary model of cosmology, the visible portion of our universe, the one mapped by our telescopes is an infinitesimally small speck in a much larger universe of at least 10 to the power 35 light-years across!

Admittedly this number is really, really big, and almost impossible to imagine. So lets shrink everything down, WAY down, just so we can get a better grasp of it. Let's imagine that the entire universe that we have seen in all the worlds telescopes, all the galaxies, all trillion of them, extending out 13 billion light years in every direction is shrunk down to the size of a golf ball.

If we do a volume calculation, the actual universe contains 10 to the power 60 of those golf balls! Wow, I guess we didn't shrink things down far enough, but this will have to do. So how big a volume would 10 to the power 60 golf balls fill up? Try a sphere 850 light years across! So imagine a mass of golf balls that big, and each one of those golf balls contains all the stars and galaxies that we can see through our telescopes!! :stoned:

It's pretty intense when you sit down and think about it, especialy when your ripped on some good "thinking" herb.:jointsmile::stoned:

One theory says that outside of the universe is the inflation field. in this place large amounts of pure energy cause matter to be created (big bangs) in most cases the matter is thrown out into oblivion. however, in some places the properties of the field allow for bubbles to form in which the expansion rate is lower. these bubbles are universes.

It has been shown that the universe is not only expanding, but the expansion is accelerating. Dark Energy is what causes the expansion, but no one knows what dark energy is. Science currently makes no prediction of what happened before the big bang. The correct answer to the original question is, "I don't know".

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Originally Posted by Patriot57

Science currently makes no prediction of what happened before the big bang. The correct answer to the original question is, "I don't know".

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That is correct.

Current physics cannot address what happened at the exact moment of the Big Bang. All the equations that work so well up to that moment break down at that point, and no one knows what happened "before." (There technically is no "before," because time began with the Big Bang.)

Currently it is believed that some kind of force called Dark Energy is driving an acceleration of the expansion of the universe. It is believed that the universe will continue to expand, thin out and cool down until it is dark, cold and empty.

I always take that kind of prediction with a grain of salt, bacause our understanding of the universe is always changing (for example, Dark Energy and Dark Matter were unknown just a few years ago, and no one knows for sure what they are yet). No one knows what we will find in the next few years to change our understanding of the ultimate fate of the universe. I'm hoping that the begining can be better understood, maybe through string theory or M theory, or some other crazy-ass thing that hasn't even been dreamed up yet --- it is probably not far away.

Nature has placed these questions beyond our concious reach. Life lived and life understood do not go hand in hand... if we understood the creation of the universe we would probably be gods creating our own. lol

Every question answered will bring about many more.. its a never ending rabbit hole, and once you do make it to the bottom, the truth is ripped out of your grasp and you start right back at the beginning of the hole. Existence is a cycle.. wether or not it was intelligently designed is puzzling...

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Originally Posted by natureisawesome

The big bang is a lie.
The sun is just the right distance from the earth.
The earth has just the right temperature for life (with modest variations).
The planet has just the right gravity.
The earth holds a incredibly sufficient system to support plants and life and recycle energy.
The earth spins around the sun at just the right distance, a little bit farther and we'd freeze, a little bit closer and we'd burn. It also spins at just the right speed.

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It should not surprise us to look around and see conditions which permit our existence. To the contrary, it would be very odd indeed should we see otherwise.

Once we figure out what dark energy is. These questions might be simple. We still dont know were or what 70% of our universe is.

honestly, there isn't an answer for this question other than there isn't a start, and isn't a finish...asking this question will only lead to more questions, and infinite cycle of inquiries. time has no start, and no end, it's infinite..

as for other life outside of the milky way, i believe there is but I'm surprised we haven't picked up any signs from all the antennas/sensors/whatever else we have monitoring space. a theory i share with my dad on this subject is that we are just a single cell that is smaller than infinitely many other universes, and larger than infinitely many universes.. reality is what you make it.. there is no way to prove that i'm real, that you're real, or anything is real so you have to kind of accept that, and after i've done a little bit of researching into this and conversations with various other people, i've come to realize that you have to make the best of what you have, and live life to the fullest :)

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Originally Posted by king of the world

i was high one day and was thinking about the big bang and stuff.
and thought what happened before the big bang? scientist always talk about the big bang and everything that happened after that, but none talk about before the big bang?

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It is impossible for us to know exactly what conditions were present before the Big Bang. Using theoretical physics and such, we have been able to trace back the history of the universe all the way up to 1 Plank time (5.4 x 1^-44 seconds) after the big bang, but before this point all physical laws and mathematics breaks down and chaos rules, thus conditions are impossible to determine.

Some scientists suggest the cyclic model of the universe in which each big bang eventually concludes with a big crunch and repeats itself, but recent estimations are showing that the universe will almost certainly continue to expand forever, given that the universe is flat and not open or closed.

History channel has a show called before the big bang, something about space pockets i think

im sorry, but fuck explanation and fuck science. I mean yeah, its totally cool to study whats around you and what the fuck is goin on, but any one with common sense would understand that they aren't going to find any type of answer to explain everything. Everything works itself around in a circle. The answer is already here and we dont need no fuckin test tubes to see it. We've got what we've got....look at the world right now...look where it is....look whats out there....man we're all alone on this fucking planet. This planet with creatures of all colors and sizes and creatures that change colors to match the environment, and huge oceans and an endless sky and universe. Could your LIFE, really be YOURS....no, its the fucking universes so give it back...it made you, and you made it....sun doesnt give light to the moon assuming the moons gonna owe him one. lol linkin park...their old shit was good

their are big bangs happinin all the time as many as 2 a second or even more. so the answer is what happend before is right now happend before. also trillions of years after, depending on how you want to look at. It its important to keep in mind that the big bang was not one occurance or even a rare occurance, the univerise is not slowing down but, speeding up. And yes their is answers to everything but not one universal answer. Answers change with the equations and everything is an equation.

Either time did not exist, and it is the beginning, or


Before the big bang there was another universe everything was eventually pulled into that small ball by gravity, just so it could blow up and start over again.
Possible the Big Bang isn't THE big bang, but just A big bang. Maybe very far away there are more galaxies that are from another big bang, and not our big bang.


I think the second one is correct.

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Originally Posted by THClord

Maybe very far away there are more galaxies that are from another big bang, and not our big bang.

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But the big bang theory isn't purported to have created galaxies, but instead the ENTIRE universe originated from it. From nothing came everything we know to exist. No recollection of how this matter happened to appear out of nowhere, just blind faith that it did.

Believing in this theory makes believing in intelligent design just as plausible. They're both deemed as impossibilities, only one generally backs up their assertation with historical religious scripture, where the other doesn't. Science as we know it cannot define either, and therefore cannot confirm the truth and validity of either. Beyond this, we start delving into the metaphysical... which is far beyond the realms of science.

Its gotta be cyclical, otherwise where did everything come from? Not that it being cyclical really answers that question...
Ive always found the idea of time travel intriguing, so that leads me to believe there are other dimensions that we cannot see or experience, and that these dimensions affect our 'laws' of life. Such as the constant speed of light. In certain ways we are begining to see that these laws can be modified and changed.

Basically I think there is sooo much stuff out there we dont know, that its going to take us a very, very long time to figure it out. :) Man, I love watching discovery channel wacked out.

wasn't it the Great Inhale?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine

But the big bang theory isn't purported to have created galaxies, but instead the ENTIRE universe originated from it. From nothing came everything we know to exist. No recollection of how this matter happened to appear out of nowhere, just blind faith that it did.

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Not true. You're making incorrect assumption that the Big Bang theory claims that the universe was created out of "nothing" or "appeared out of nowhere", which is not the case at all. The Big Bang theory describes that the universe was once a very small, infinitely dense singularity, from which the observable universe we see today expanded from and evolved through a series of chemical and particle interactions. For the expansion to occur there must have been already pre-existing matter. How did it get there? We're not sure, but that is not what the Big Bang theory seeks to explain. The theory only seeks to explain the expansion of the pre-existing singularity into the observable universe we see today.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine

Believing in this theory makes believing in intelligent design just as plausible. They're both deemed as impossibilities, only one generally backs up their assertation with historical religious scripture, where the other doesn't. Science as we know it cannot define either, and therefore cannot confirm the truth and validity of either. Beyond this, we start delving into the metaphysical... which is far beyond the realms of science.

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Again, not true. The Big Bang theory is seen as an impossibility only by people who have an extremely limited understanding of what the theory is, what it states, and what evidence we have to support it. How can you expect someone to accept the theory when their entire understanding of it is wrong?

And also, why do you assume that the Big Bang theory and Intelligent Design are mutually exclusive? We can infer everything we know about the Big Bang theory from observable evidence we see today - the exponential expansion of the universe, the cosmic background radiation, abundance of light elements over heavy elements, etc. This is what we see, and this is exactly what one would expect from a "Big Bang" universe. One can easily assume that the Big Bang expansion is simply God's method of creation rather than rejecting the theory all together.

We don't know yet; so that proves God did it. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Diffusion

The Big Bang theory describes that the universe was once a very small, infinitely dense singularity, from which the observable universe we see today expanded from and evolved through a series of chemical and particle interactions.

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Granted, but since there is absolutely no explanation as to how this infinitely dense blob of matter just happened to appear in the middle of a great void of time and space, we'll just have to admit that we simply don't know what we don't know. Hence the reason the "Big Bang theory" is still a theory, it's still plagued by large amounts of speculation. Until science can definitively prove that this matter existed in the beginning, there is reasonable cause to reject the underlying hypothesis... because for the most part, we can't accurately describe what we don't understand. We can throw in all sorts of conjecture, based on more speculation about the random observable facts that we can see... but that still doesn't verify the theory.

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Originally Posted by Diffusion

We can infer everything we know about the Big Bang theory from observable evidence we see today - the exponential expansion of the universe, the cosmic background radiation, abundance of light elements over heavy elements, etc.

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You're right. You can infer that this observable evidence directly correlates to the occurrence of a Big Bang. But, you can't explain where the infinite amounts of energy originated that blasted this matter forth into the universe... you can't actually observe the universe as it expands... you can't explain why the dispersed matter is "clumped" together as opposed to having been evenly distributed... and you can't actually determine which elements are more abundant. You can only speculate, and you should know that this is not science. This is actually where I find many purported "scientists" begin to dig around the realms of metaphysical explanations, and this is where they lose all credibility of actually being called scientists. There are also several other theories that just as accurately describe how this "evidence" could point out our origins, but they're equally as speculative. And now that we've got these great thinkers like Dawkins drooling over mathematical consistencies and spewing forth long-winded explanations, the Big Bang theory is just the most overly hyped fad of todays 'evolutionary scientists'. Nothing more. In another thousand years, if our world still exists, I have no reason to believe that this theory won't have become outdated and replaced. But in a thousand years, again... if we're still here, I have plenty of reason to believe that the opinions of a Christian will have remained unchanged.

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Originally Posted by Diffusion

One can easily assume that the Big Bang expansion is simply God's method of creation rather than rejecting the theory all together.

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One can just as easily assume that the expansion is based mostly on intangibility and hypothetical scenarios that best "fit" the intended theory. Denying this doesn't make me ignorant of the facts, because for the most part, there are none that directly correlate to the proposed theory. As long as we're free to speculate, you have no authority to tell me that I'm wrong. Likewise for myself.

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Originally Posted by carinia

Ive always found the idea of time travel intriguing, so that leads me to believe there are other dimensions that we cannot see or experience, and that these dimensions affect our 'laws' of life. Such as the constant speed of light. In certain ways we are begining to see that these laws can be modified and changed.

Basically I think there is sooo much stuff out there we dont know, that its going to take us a very, very long time to figure it out. :) Man, I love watching discovery channel wacked out.

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I think this way also... even being a scientist (or maybe cause of this), i strongly believe that the physical world (the one which we usually can see and which is thought to "obey" the physical laws) is only one "layer" of the world... i believe that there are another non-physical worlds "superimposed" to the physical one, and all of them interact (even if only barely) with each another.
If you like this kind of stuff, maybe you will like to look this site: Beyond the Physical
It explains a LOT of things... and its accessible for everybody, without need of scientifical background (but having it helps a lot...).

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Originally Posted by Diffusion

One can easily assume that the Big Bang expansion is simply God's method of creation

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Exactly... the Big Bang theory says that in the beggining everything was concentrated in a very small volume, and everything was energy. Well... light is energy. So, when its said: "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Gen 1:3, it may as well be a description of the creation of that primordial state of the universe.
Also, after some expansion, the energy stopped to fill all the universe, and it would account for the separation between light and darkness described in the next verse : "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness." Gen 1:4.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey

We don't know yet; so that proves God did it. :rolleyes:

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Why not? In the end, it may be right...

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Why not? In the end, it may be right...

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Well, the thing is... I'm really sure that the universe was designed by trillions upon trillions of invisible omniscient pixies. It's impossible to disprove the pixies, and the pixie theory fits perfectly into the missing piece of the creation puzzle.


My point being; the pixie hypothesis and the God hypothesis are both the same thing; a hypothesis. There is no actual evidence pointing to God, but rather God is assumed to be the only option because he fits so well where we can't explain the unexplained. As I showed with my pixies though, all you need is an active imagination to think of something that perfectly explains anything unexplainable. There's no extra empiracle evidence to give God more validity than my pixies.


When you really analyze the notion of God, it's like somebody decided to design the perfect logical explanation. "Ok, here's what we do; we think of a guy that can do everything, knows everything, is infinite in every respect, and he created the universe." When you design the infinite being, he will of course fit into every explanation.

Gandalf, the idea of God was not a rational creation of someones mind. It comes from peoples mystical experiences. When they were in such alterated states of consciousness (where reason is usually useless or even meaningless), they percieved that there was a "source" from everything that was and is (and will be), and when returned to "normal" waking consciousness, they called it "God", and tried to fit it in human concepts, for describing it to others.
But as God is far beyond any human concept, they had a hard time doing it, and the best they could was say that it was everywhere, that it could do anything, that it knew everything, and so... this descriptions being only the best way they could fit the greatness of God in mere human concepts and words. God is beyond words, beyond concepts, beyond anything our human minds can reach.
But people insists in treating it as one concept, as one thing that the human mind can understand. And doing so, obviously they are not talking about the God that Is, but about a human concept that i will call god (without capital letter).
So, IMHO, anybody who never did "see" God, or rather, who never had a mystical experience and percieved Him as He is, simply dont know what they are talking about when talks about God. It includes myself, as i never had such mystical experience (yet). But, from what ive understood about this experiences, im sure that my explanation will make sense to the ones who actually had such experiences, and who are the only rightly entitled to talk about God.

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Originally Posted by Coelho

Gandalf, the idea of God was not a rational creation of someones mind. It comes from peoples mystical experiences. When they were in such alterated states of consciousness (where reason is usually useless or even meaningless), they percieved that there was a "source" from everything that was and is (and will be), and when returned to "normal" waking consciousness, they called it "God", and tried to fit it in human concepts, for describing it to others.
But as God is far beyond any human concept, they had a hard time doing it, and the best they could was say that it was everywhere, that it could do anything, that it knew everything, and so... this descriptions being only the best way they could fit the greatness of God in mere human concepts and words. God is beyond words, beyond concepts, beyond anything our human minds can reach.
But people insists in treating it as one concept, as one thing that the human mind can understand. And doing so, obviously they are not talking about the God that Is, but about a human concept that i will call god (without capital letter).
So, IMHO, anybody who never did "see" God, or rather, who never had a mystical experience and percieved Him as He is, simply dont know what they are talking about when talks about God. It includes myself, as i never had such mystical experience (yet). But, from what ive understood about this experiences, im sure that my explanation will make sense to the ones who actually had such experiences, and who are the only rightly entitled to talk about God.

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Damn Coelho, that's the best description of God I've ever heard! That's actually what I believe myself. You look at some of the amazing revelations of Shamans, the Koran, Bible, Torah, The Buddha Dharma, and so much more, and there is definately some outside force influencing ones knowledge. I'm not actually an atheist, but A-deist (a non-belief in dieties).

Deifying God is such a primitive way of understanding the forces of the universe. And not just in making God a "him", but making the source of everything a separate conscious being in and of itself. What you described perfectly explains what I've been thinking. But this is why I don't think we even need to call this force "God". Some call it the Tao, some call it space-time under the rules of string theory, some call it the ultimate nature of everything; the true link diminishing the barriers between supposed "nothingness" and "somethingness".

Good description anyway. :thumbsup:

Im glad that you did understand. :thumbsup:
In fact, i arrived at this description after "mixing", or rather comparing what i knew about Christianism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Occultism, and some more... i did realize that there was something common underlying all this religions... and i only call it God because i was born and raised Christian, and am half (or more) Christian myself... but of course the name we give to it is what matters less... as the important is our notion, how we imagine it.
And i sincerely hope to meet Him (or It)... one day, who knows?...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine

Granted, but since there is absolutely no explanation as to how this infinitely dense blob of matter just happened to appear in the middle of a great void of time and space, we'll just have to admit that we simply don't know what we don't know.

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According to quantum physics, particles do arise out of the void all the time. Virtual particle pairs, a particle and an anti-particle, arise out of the vacuum and then recombine and disappear in immeasurably short periods of time. This is called a vacuum fluctuation. The larger the particle, the less statistically likely it is to appear, and the shorter the period of time that it lasts. So there is a remote, but statisticaly possible chance that a virtual elephant might appear in your living room, but it would be gone so quickly that it wouldn't really have any effect.

One model for the Big Bang holds that the Universe arose as a vacuum fluctuation. It was an incredibly massive singularity that arose out of the vacuum. Ordinarily such a massive vacuum fluctuation would reconcile its virtual particle pairs in an unimaginabley short period of time and disappear back into the void, but because of the density and pressure, the singularity curved space-time and triggered a massive inflation of space-time. During this super inflation, the virtual particle pairs become irreconcilably separated in space and a stable universe resulted which was not going to instantaneously fall back into oblivion.

So it is not right to say that there is "absolutely no explanation as to how this infinitely dense blob of matter just happened to appear in the middle of a great void of time and space." It arose as a vacuum fluctuation.