Are these signs?

then i win too cuz i'm on ermi's side, not actually hating christianity or anything...but have noticed as well the many 'flaws'.

just to further what i was saying, the bible was written by man (whether it was actually words of god or not i do not know) and the proof it was written by an imperfect creature is all thorugh it...and with that take in it's age and the times it's been revised to make it easier to understand. so, with all this...how can you use that book (that has probably been twisted and misunderstood soooooooo many times there's nothing left accurate in it) to base your belief and base your arguments? if this were in a court, your case would be thrown out loooooooong ago for your unabilty to provide evidence....cuz all you can give now is 'word of mouth'

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Originally Posted by ermitonto

I really don't understand this whole "Satan" theory. If such a creature existed, why would it punish people like me who don't believe in God? Isn't Satan supposed to encourage rebellion against God? And is this Satan creature all-powerful like God? If the worst he was able to do is whip up a measly little hurricane, that is, recreate a weather phenomenon that shows up naturally every year anyways, the evidence is that Satan is not all-powerful. So what then are the limits to his powers? Could everybody in Hell gang up on him and beat the crap out of him? Spirits can feel pain in Hell, right? So why not Satan? Could God demolish Satan? It seems an omnipotent being devoted to universal goodness and forgiveness would pretty much have to destroy any system of eternal punishment, so if Satan really does exist then God must not be able to demolish him and therefore must himself not be all-powerful. If God has a divine plan for everything, like most Christians like to claim, and he created everything, that means Satan influencing our decisions is just part of God's plan of creation so it would be pointless and anti-God to try to stop it. Same goes for the whole Antichrist thing. If Biblical prophecy predicts that the Antichrist will bring about the end of the world, why do so many Christians go out of their way to try to find and defeat the Antichrist? To make the Bible's prophecy not come true?

There are just too many holes in the theory, and no supporting evidence whatsoever.

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There is something you must understand about God and Satan. First off, Satan doesn't "punish" us per se. Hurricanes and earthquakes (select ones, though I do not know which) are punishment from God. These punisments come from him because of our sinfull actions. These natural disasters are also to remind us how big the impact of sin was on mankind. The simple step of man sinning had effect on all creation. Thus, why animals have to suffer death even though they do not sin. Scientifically you must think i'm an idiot. You would say "A hurricane occures when this fount meets another and whatnot, but you must understand that God has complete control over these things. Now, as much as you probably don't want to read this, at least read it to learn something, even if you don't apply it to your life. So that you can understand these things.

As you may have learned, Satan was at once an Angle. Scripture points to there being a time before creation, in which Angles were given the choice to obey God or to disobey him. Satan and his demons were condemmened and never to enter his kingdom again, because of the fact they decided to revert. Its kind of the same for Humans. We were given an opportunity to either stick by God, or to open our eyes to sin. God forced this descision to come along, allowing Satan to tempt them in whatever way. When all was done, Adam and Eve instantly saw that they were naked and their eyes were opened to sin. But because God loved us so much, he gives us chances. An important note, Why did God even allow us to screw up so badly? Well because if he had not, and made us incapable of making descisions, then we would be drones, robots, with no free will. So giving us that free will, we were able to do what we want.

Now, answering the question about Satan wanting to "punish" an unbeliever. It is NOT in his intrest to punish us, but to guide us to temptation. Us disobeying God is what Satan wishes for. There also is no place in scripture that indicates that in Hell, they will be punished by Satan. Unlike God, Satan can only be in one place at a time so its not realistic that Satan is actually controling Hell, but part of it. He is to suffer eternal punishment as well. So, more then likely, no matter how much some people may disagree, Unbelievers in Hell will be punished by God. The lord is so righteous that he can NOT allow sin to go unexcused. Now, is one little simple lie (sin) merrit a whole eternity of spiritual death? In our day and age, its unrealistic to say it is, even I would say so. But we were created to be perfect and righteous, so in disobeying that we are cursed. Most people dont know this but to think of Heaven as a city in the clouds with spirits flying about is just unbiblical. Scripture suggests that we will be reborn much like how Jesus was. He was still able to eat and drink so realisticly, Heaven wont be much diffrent then Earth, once established. All thoes who are dead today yet saved, are "sleeping" until Heaven and Hell are actually made, with their souls in the grasp of God. Often explained as the "New earth and new heaven".

Continuing, quotes from you.

So what then are the limits to his powers?
Satans power, yes. There are limits and unlike God he can only be at one place at one time.

Could everybody in Hell gang up on him and beat the crap out of him?
hahaha, as humorous at this question is, the answer is no. Satan is not in Hell, he is working among humans to cause trouble. Besides, humans in Hell at the time of hells creation, will be in torture. How can they commune to jump Satan?

Spirits can feel pain in Hell, right? So why not Satan?
Basic misconception. "Spirits" do not go to hell. Bodies do, and yes, unbelievers will also be given a new body. Satan is to be bound in a lake of fire, and he will feel pain too. There is nothing that says Satan is exempt from this torture. In fact, Hell may be based around Satan's punishment.

Could God demolish Satan?
Yes, as he could demolish us. But he loves us, as he loves Lucifer. This may sound strange but there are a lot of things humans simply cannot comprehend.

so if Satan really does exist then God must not be able to demolish him and therefore must himself not be all-powerful. This is simply not true. God could do so but he wont. The basics of this question was answered in the last. Another thing you must realize is that its not a battle between God and Satan.

Whew, now as far as it being the end of times? I would have to say, I truly do not know. In a word, perhaps. Since the bible no where specifiys when the end of time will be there is no way of telling, other then the signs God tells us indicates rapture and tribulation. So, going by thoes I would have to say yes, most of the signs have already passed and there are few to come. Believers, you want this. It is not in our intrest to "stop the anti-christ" because he is part of the divine plan. Even so, it is impossible so any foolish believer out there attempting the impossible, I advise you quit.

Just trying to provide answers for thoes who seek them. :)

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Originally Posted by Kokujin X

Hurricanes and earthquakes (select ones, though I do not know which) are punishment from God.

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about all i can say to this is OMG. so then if god really wanted us to realize he sent us 'certain' ones wouldn't he then make it easily known which were and weren't? i can't as easily write off earthquakes as hurricanes, as they happen from deep in the center of the earth, and without very specific and high-tech equpiment are unpredictable. BUT, hurricanes are due to weather patterns. i really doubt there is much more 'sin' in one are than another...so why not just wipe out all of humankind and start over? with a whole new eve and adam and everything YOU say happened in the begining? if he is so disapointed with the 'creations' he has made that he would kill thousands, why not just start off fresh. why contine to kill hundreds, if not thousands of INNOCENT people to just to punish the 'guilty'? prime example, hundreds of god-fearing christian worshipers were killed in katrina, yet hundreds of registered sex offenders managed to escape, to come here. the natural disasters you say are due to god's wraith aren't very effective at doing what they are supposed to do. matter of fact, probably more 'repented souls' died then sinners. so which is it? is christianity not correct as we know it (meaning the bible is full of bullshit) or is your god just enjoying killing innocent people?

2 notes,
1. that was a dirrect question i don't want your usualy (christains) bullshit and evasive answers, i want to know which of the TWO possible answers i gave you think is to be correct

2. "so then if god really wanted us to realize he sent us 'certain' ones wouldn't he then make it easily known which were and weren't?" really should have said: so then if god meant these as punishments wouldn't it make sense to give us sign of which ones were punishment and which weren't (by giving unexplainable circumstances or more in them)

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Originally Posted by Kokujin X

There is something you must understand about God and Satan. First off, Satan doesn't "punish" us per se. Hurricanes and earthquakes (select ones, though I do not know which) are punishment from God. These punisments come from him because of our sinfull actions. These natural disasters are also to remind us how big the impact of sin was on mankind. The simple step of man sinning had effect on all creation. Thus, why animals have to suffer death even though they do not sin.

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If only some earthquakes and hurricanes mean something, but not others, how are humans supposed to tell the difference? And why do Christians not seize upon these supposed interactions between God and the physical world to prove their faith with evidence? Couldn't they collect statistics and show us how "sin" (whatever that is, and however they measure it) was at unusually high levels before these disasters of warning? Of course, they would have to propose some way of filtering out the disasters that mean nothing. But even then, they might be able to point out some general trends that people afflicted by earthquakes and hurricanes tend to be more sinful, and that people who live in areas without many natural disasters are generally less sinful. But of course, you would have to be prepared to give up your theories once you find out the facts do not correlate with Christian dogma.

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Scientifically you must think i'm an idiot.

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Yep. In science, we only say something is established as a cause for something when we have a falsifiable theory with some physical evidence to back it up.

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You would say "A hurricane occures when this fount meets another and whatnot, but you must understand that God has complete control over these things.

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I am well aware of the supposed omnipotence of God, but I still refuse to believe that a "good" being would do evil things like kill innocent people and keep a system of eternal torture in his universe. A better defense for your point of view might be, well God can do anything, therefore he can even do evil things like these.

Global warming is the most likely culprit for the rise in hurricanes, and that's something we can actually do something about. Pointing to an imaginary God as the source is to say that we are powerless to change the cause of these hurricanes, and that is counter-productive in finding solutions to this very real problem.

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This may sound strange but there are a lot of things humans simply cannot comprehend.

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This is essentially what all religion boils down to. Something we can't possibly understand. When you ask too many questions, you start getting answers like "the Lord works in mysterious ways" and "we cannot possibly comprehend God". And it is true, if there were such a being as God in charge of every little action in the universe, it would have to be so immensely complex that we would have no chance with our limited brains of ever understanding what it is, how it works, why it does what it does, etc. And of course, if something is so far outside the limits of human comprehension, attempting to understand it is pointless. And pretending to know things about it that nobody could ever prove or disprove (like all religions do) is just deceptive.

[font=arial]the devil has created a little thing we like to call, time. trapped in time we are until the day that we are willing to accept what god is offering, our lives into eternal happiness.
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the devil has created a little thing we like to call, time. trapped in time we are until the day that we are willing to accept what god is offering, our lives into eternal happiness.

damn, seeing ermitonto post is like seeing my twin of the same thought capacity posting. he says the things i want to say but don't have the mind expansion to say.

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Originally Posted by Ganj

the devil has created a little thing we like to call, time.

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in the begining of your book it says 'in the begining god created blah blah blah' begining signify's time, if satan was made later on in the book (atleast made satan) and he made time, then how was there a begining? so either this is yet another lie, or the very first sentence in the story line of your book is.

There is no real beginning according to the scriptures! time is outside of God! for example you have both outser space and time but yet God is seprate from both! he has always been......Jesus says before the world was created we were with him! thats because we have always been also with him! there is no begining! or end! it's a paradox!.........the scriptures say in the beginning was the word! which is Christ! and in genesis is says in the beginning god made man! that would only apply to actually making humans because we were already created before the earth was in spirit!...............

The followers of Christ asked! Lord when is the end!...Jesus said" have you found the beginning? but yet you look for the end? I tell you the truth the beginning is where the end is too!...............we have always been with Christ from day #1.............