Selling 600w to go LED, need help with PAD/rauber technique

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Originally Posted by Permabaked

I'm getting rid of my 600w HPS because I'm moving into a studio apartment and don't want super high electricity bills. Normally I can yield about .6-.7g/w. Because of the high cost of LED's I know I'm going to have to seriously downsize in terms of wattage so I want to maximize my yield potentials by manipulating the photoperiods. I'm going to be constructing a few of my own panels and was looking for input as to how I could successfully make a veg chamber and a flowering chamber both using the PAD method. For my veg chamber I'd normally use 20 hours on 4 off and 12/12 for my flowering chamber. I'm planning on building my own LED panels using information I found on greenpinelanes forums and want to build them specific to this style of growing. Knna, dogznova, weezard, anyone want to help me out real quick?

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I thought I had responded to this, but it was a post I had made to another.

This was the post I made to Rickkus 23rd August 2010, 08:39 PM at my home site, in regards to vegging LED spectrums.

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Originally Posted by salmayo

My preferences:
415 to 445nm Blues
660nm Reds
(Also 735 to 745nm Far Reds after the 10th day of flowering).

If you think the growth is a bit sluggish, I recommend Simple Rauber Enhancement - .5/.5 hour Red cycling (24/7), with 3/21 or more Blue cycling. (BUT -- Let none accures the Prince of Artificial Darkness by saying he's normal!)

Wish I had more time, I miss my TY!

Take care, Sal.

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Sorry I got confused on that one.

I think LEDengin Red and Far Red LEDs are good choices for Red and Far Red, but since I go for Blue down in the 415 to 445nm range and such LEDs aren't cost reasonnable, I've been using Actinic Blue T5 HO fluorescent tubes as a Blue source (since I'm willing to trade some output quantity for spectral quality.

According to your specification: "For my veg chamber I'd normally use 20 hours on 4 off and 12/12 for my flowering chamber." -- I'd recommend just the Red and Blue LEDs in the Veg chamber. This combination will also work in you flowering chamber, but I would recommend at least 1/5th the output wattage of your Red LEDs in the form of Far Red LEDs be applied for optimum ripeness in flower. You may wish to hold off on the Far Red until you are satisfied with the tightness of your buds, since it can encourage elongation before this. Far Red also contributes to subcanopy stem elongation in the absence of subcanopy Red sources, so Far Red application is a matter of personal choice.

You can use Simple Rauber Enhancement by cycling your Red LEDs .5/.5 hours on/off to increase growth rate and efficiency in both your Veg and Flower chambers with those 20/4 and 12/12 photoperiod timing.

I look forward to how it turns out for you. I'm sure you'll like the results.

Sorry for the belated answer, I though I had already addressed that one. My bad.

I hope I answerred what you where asking.

Sorry to tussle in your thread earlier, but I tire of flamers (shameless haters) quickly.

Take care, Sal.

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Originally Posted by salmayo

I would recommend at least 1/5th the output wattage of your Red LEDs in the form of Far Red LEDs be applied for optimum ripeness in flower. You may wish to hold off on the Far Red until you are satisfied with the tightness of your buds, since it can encourage elongation before this. Far Red also contributes to subcanopy stem elongation in the absence of subcanopy Red sources, so Far Red application is a matter of personal choice..

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Sal.... Thanks for the minimum of 1/5th the output of Red LEDs in the form of Far Red LEDs be applied for optimum ripeness in flower...

The amount of FR wattage to 660 wattage was something I was guessing at.. Although I think I was somewhat close, Its nice to have it confirmed.. Thanks..

I do got a question about positioning of the LED lights..

Do you recommend all the Reds, Blues and FR's be placed on top of the canopy or can the Blues be placed on the walls or vise versa.... Reds on the walls and Blues on top..

What about the Far Reds.. Were is a good placement for them. Top, bottom, sides.

Sorry to hit you with ?'s .....If you don't have time to respond I'll hit you up a different time..

Thanks..

Just saw your response. Thank you sal. I don't have the startup money for this project just yet but I will let you know how everything turns out when I do.

The 1/5th the output of Red LEDs in the form of Far Red LEDs gives a nice trade-off for overhead lighting by improving ripenness, without inducing too much subcanopy stem elongation.

Optimum surface lighting wattages for ripeness may be used in the 1 to 1 ratio, but without providing more Red to the bottom of the canopy, the stem elongation would be excessive at usual indoor intensities. Higher Far Red ratios raise the (Red) saturation levels needed near the bottom of the canopy.

Incandescent Users: Many LED marketeers equate the amount of Red generated by their LED wattage to a given amount of HPS wattage, a quick and dirty rule of thumb for using Incandescents as a Far Red source is to use an equal amount of Incandescent wattage to HPS wattage. (In other words, using ten times the wattage of Inc.'s to Red LEDs is not unrealistic, just very inefficient compared to an equivalent amount of Far Red LED wattage.

For Simple Rauber Enhancement (No Far Red, just Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) intervals) or just good combinations of 415nm to 445nm Blues with Reds, having the Red and Blues on top gives excellent results, with fairly uniform growth down the plant and little subcanopy stem elongation.

When using Far Red in addition to Blue and Reds, by placing the Far Red on top with Reds and Blues, Far Red ratios are too large at the bottom of the sub canopy, but by adding Red and Blue at the bottom up can be used to lower the subcanopy Far Red ratios to desired levels.

Assuming that Far Red passes through the plant like an X-ray, works well, especially if there is plenty of good Far Red reflective material such as aluminum, but as a rule I start seeing results with bottom lit Red Incandescent Far Red using only half the amounts needed for top Far Red lighting, due to the filterring effect of the canopy on the Incandescent's contribution to the spectrum contains less Red to ballance out with the Far Red. With Far Red LEDs their is little difference between top and bottom lighting, but the affects of the top and bottom Red wattages are siginificant elongation/grow factors.

So, far as placement of Blues, Reds, and Far Reds, puting Far Reds at the top or bottom with Reds and Blues on top, with addtion Reds and Blue used mixed on the sides, top and bottom works well. If you isolate too much unmixed Red or Blue, it throws the plants ballance off and you get poorer results.

Blues and Reds on top with Far Reds, Blues and Reds underneath works well with little stem elongaton on the bottom and top of the canopy.

Ultimately Far Reds are best placed on top for better heat management (the more wattage on top the better (Heat rises. Go with that flow.)

I hope that coverred it.

Take care, Sal.

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Originally Posted by salmayo

...So, far as placement of Blues, Reds, and Far Reds, puting Far Reds at the top or bottom with Reds and Blues on top, with addtion Reds and Blue used mixed on the sides, top and bottom works well. If you isolate too much unmixed Red or Blue, it throws the plants ballance off and you get poorer results.

Blues and Reds on top with Far Reds, Blues and Reds underneath works well with little stem elongaton on the bottom and top of the canopy.

Ultimately Far Reds are best placed on top for better heat management (the more wattage on top the better (Heat rises. Go with that flow.)

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Thanks Sal! Makes sense.

Nice post Sal... That's a lot to digest.. I guess I will stick to top lighting for a wile... LOL!:thumbsup:

Could someone please PM me the PAD manual, I cannot get it on the myspace.

Yeah it's not on the my space public page anymore... You got to request to be friends with Temporal Photonics now...

Not sure what happened but sal said he was only leaving it on the public page for a wile... I guess a wile is up...lol

I do know it's still up, I just checked... You just got to request to be friends...

i an a skecptic when it comes to led's. it is one of those things i would have to know someone with great success and actualy be there and see it working. every company that produces led's claim that theirs offers the best this and that then anyone else. how can they all claim to be better. i saw on company claim that after 6 months of research. just 6 months. how many cycles of plants life can you go in 6 months. doesnt seem lng in the terms of research to me.

"i an a skecptic when it comes to led's"

Howzit, LRT?

So was I, brah
The proof is in the budding, yah?:)

[attachment=o257697]

Ignore the puffery and scrutinize the facts.
LEDs provide colors dat Halide kine, lacks.

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Firs' we water, den we feed.
An' givem jus' da light dey need.
Den, stan' back.
Look-out! Treeweed!:cool:

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IMO, leds are great.:pimp:

No believe.
Investigate!

Burma Shave.

Aloha, Y'all

Weezard