Obama says torturers may face prosecution
While we are on this subject, let's clarify what these techniques entailed. They way people are talking you would think we are using medieval tactics.
Set the Record Straight: Publish All Key Memos on CIA Interrogations
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What the Memos Reveal
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While many media accounts portrayed the memos as evidence that interrogation practices were both illegal and ineffective and therefore an indictment of Bush policies, others disagree.
For example, after analyzing the memos, David Rivkin and Lee Casey concluded in
The Wall Street Journal, "The four memos on CIA interrogation released by the White House last week reveal a cautious and conservative Justice Department advising a CIA that cared deeply about staying within the law. Far from 'green lighting' torture--or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees--the memos detail the actual techniques used and the many measures taken to ensure that interrogations did not cause severe pain or degradation."
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What has not been released, however, is all the other relevant information about the program that would help Americans better understand both how it worked and how effective it was.
While
The Washington Post reported that "Justice Department documents released yesterday offer the fullest account to date of Bush administration interrogation tactics, including previously unacknowledged strategies,"
[3] it failed to note that many key details about the program, including those that might put interrogation policies in a more favorable light, were not disclosed.
For example, former Vice President Cheney noted in an interview, "One of the things that I find a little bit disturbing about this recent disclosure is they put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn't put out the memos that showed the success of the effort."
[4] The Vice President stated that he had previously asked for the declassification of additional memos. In recent press interviews, he renewed his request.
Here is an article pointing out the misinformation about Walling.
The Memos Prove We Didn't Torture - WSJ.com
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The four memos on CIA interrogation released by the White House last week reveal a cautious and conservative Justice Department advising a CIA that cared deeply about staying within the law. Far from "green lighting" torture -- or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees -- the memos detail the actual techniques used and the many measures taken to ensure that interrogations did not cause severe pain or degradation.
Interrogations were to be "continuously monitored" and "the interrogation team will stop the use of particular techniques or the interrogation altogether if the detainee's medical or psychological conditions indicates that the detainee might suffer significant physical or mental harm."
An Aug. 1, 2002, memo describes the practice of "walling" -- recently revealed in a report by the International Committee of the Red Cross, which suggested that detainees wore a "collar" used to "forcefully bang the head and body against the wall" before and during interrogation. In fact, detainees were placed with their backs to a "flexible false wall," designed to avoid inflicting painful injury. Their shoulder blades -- not head -- were the point of contact, and the "collar" was used not to give additional force to a blow, but further to protect the neck.
The memo says the point was to inflict psychological uncertainty, not physical pain: "the idea is to create a sound that will make the impact seem far worse than it is and that will be far worse than any injury that might result from the action."
Shackling and confinement in a small space (generally used to create discomfort and muscle fatigue) were also part of the CIA program, but they were subject to stringent time and manner limitations. Abu Zubaydah (a top bin Laden lieutenant) had a fear of insects. He was, therefore, to be put in a "cramped confinement box" and told a stinging insect would be put in the box with him. In fact, the CIA proposed to use a harmless caterpillar. Confinement was limited to two hours.
The memos are also revealing about the practice of "waterboarding," about which there has been so much speculative rage from the program's opponents. The practice, used on only three individuals, involved covering the nose and mouth with a cloth and pouring water over the cloth to create a drowning sensation.
This technique could be used for up to 40 seconds -- although the CIA orally informed Justice Department lawyers that it would likely not be used for more than 20 seconds at a time. Unlike the exaggerated claims of so many Bush critics, the memos make clear that water was not actually expected to enter the detainee's lungs, and that measures were put in place to prevent complications if this did happen and to ensure that the individual did not develop respiratory distress.
All of these interrogation methods have been adapted from the U.S. military's own Survival Evasion Resistance Escape (or SERE) training program, and have been used for years on thousands of American service members with the full knowledge of Congress. This has created a large body of information about the effect of these techniques, on which the CIA was able to draw in assessing the likely impact on the detainees and ensuring that no severe pain or long term psychological impact would result.
The actual intelligence benefits of the CIA program are also detailed in these memos. The CIA believed, evidently with good reason, that the enhanced interrogation program had indeed produced actionable intelligence about al Qaeda's plans. First among the resulting successes was the prevention of a "second wave" of al Qaeda attacks, to be carried out by an "east Asian" affiliate, which would have involved the crashing of another airplane into a building in Los Angeles.
The interrogation techniques described in these memos are indisputably harsh, but they fall well short of "torture." They were developed and deployed at a time of supreme peril, as a means of preventing future attacks on innocent civilians both in the U.S. and abroad.
The dedicated public servants at the CIA and Justice Department -- who even the Obama administration has concluded should not be prosecuted -- clearly cared intensely about staying within the law as well as protecting the American homeland. These memos suggest that they achieved both goals in a manner fully consistent with American values.
Messrs. Rivkin and Casey, who served in the Justice Department under George H.W. Bush, were U.S. delegates to the U.N. Subcommission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights.
We are talking about psychological tactics not physical and barbaric torture here.
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
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Originally Posted by higher4hockey
same thing happened in afghanistan. the book lone survivor tells all about it.
i just got back from iraq, and believe me, its ridiculous. there's a saying over there. "its better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"
That's what it was actually, an article about that book.
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
Well, since some approve of torture, you in the military, if you happen to get captured look forward to this and even more drastic measures. Remember the old adage, what goes around, comes around. And I'm not defending any one just denouncing torture in any form as a wasted form of gaining information.
Try this at home on yourself and let us all know how it is not torture but just a little extreme stress.
The Raw Story | Suit: Torture began before Bush administration sanctioned it
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
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Originally Posted by gypski
Well, since some approve of torture, you in the military, if you happen to get captured look forward to this and even more drastic measures. Remember the old adage,
what goes around, comes around. And I'm not defending any one just denouncing torture in any form as a wasted form of gaining information.
Try this at home on yourself and let us all know how it is not torture but just a little extreme stress.
The Raw Story | Suit: Torture began before Bush administration sanctioned it
shit man! they're already cuttin' off our fuckin' heads man, what worse could they do?
by your own argument, we're just givin' back what they gave us, only not nearly as brutally.
you should think long and hard and try to understand that freedom isn't free,
sometimes it takes harsh action. it's easy to 'do unto others as you would have
them do unto you' when you're dealing with reasonable people but when you are
talking about people willing to blow themselves up to get you, well then you have
to 'do unto others before they do unto you', or you're dead.
like it says in higher4hockey's sig, this is the land of the free because of the brave.
maybe you should listen to veterans like higher4hockey and the family's of
those that died on 9\11 rather than Nancy Pelosi.
or not, that's the beauty of America, you're entitled to any opinion you want,
as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else for you to have it. just remember though,
the Kool-Aid is to the left.
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
Well just look at that! Obama done did it again......:wtf:
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
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Originally Posted by JaggedEdge
I don't, my main point here is that Obama hurt our national security by releasing the documents. If he wanted to end it fine, he doesn't need to make a publicity stunt and release secrets to the entire world and our enemies.
In what way has our "national security" been hurt?
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Our soldiers are protected under the Geneva Convention. When we start strapping bombs to our chests, than we can compare us to them.
If you were in a third world country with no military, or billions to spend on weapons to kill, how would you fight an empire?
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Of course our government has done some shitty things to Americans as well. Simply because we allow torture of foreign terrorists doesn't mean it will be used against us, when that happens than I will change my stance, I feel that is unlikely though.
So, you want to wait until it happens?
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
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Originally Posted by JaggedEdge
Well, I will not attack the source, but you do understand that WSJ is a right wing paper correct? Anyway, back to "Torture". Are you saying that just because this is not about physical, or barbaric tactics, and it is just psychological, that it is OK? I would rather have physical torture performed on me, than psychological.
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
shit man! they're already cuttin' off our fuckin' heads man, what worse could they do?
by your own argument, we're just givin' back what they gave us, only not nearly as brutally.
you should think long and hard and try to understand that freedom isn't free,
sometimes it takes harsh action. it's easy to 'do unto others as you would have
them do unto you' when you're dealing with reasonable people but when you are
talking about people willing to blow themselves up to get you, well then you have
to 'do unto others before they do unto you', or you're dead.
like it says in higher4hockey's sig, this is the land of the free because of the brave.
maybe you should listen to veterans like higher4hockey and the family's of
those that died on 9\11 rather than Nancy Pelosi.
or not, that's the beauty of America, you're entitled to any opinion you want,
as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else for you to have it. just remember though,
the Kool-Aid is to the left.
Before you give me the patriotic speech, I'm an ex-Marine and I know all about war and its results. We didn't start cutting off heads and won't make it part of our rules of engagement. Sorry, but if you had been a troop under me and tried some attrocites, I have you up on charges. Discipline is needed on the battle field, not a bunch of maniacs.
I'm more concerned about our own troops killing themselves after they've come back home. Quit drinking the righty kool-aid on Fox. Its hazardous for one's health. :twocents:
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
The main problem with the "look what they're doing to our boys" argument is the simple fact that "our boys" shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Obama says torturers may face prosecution
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Originally Posted by psychocat
The main problem with the "look what they're doing to our boys" argument is the simple fact that "our boys" shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Which place are you referring to? Afghanistan or Iraq?
Seeing as an organization responsible for attacking Americans on American soil is located in Afghanistan, our army had every right to retaliate and try to eliminate the enemy. I am afraid Afghanistan will turn into our modern day Vietnam though.
Now if you are referring to Iraq. We overthrew a dictator who was responsible for ordering the murder of 148 Shiites. So, although I don't exactly agree with this war, it is certainly justifiable on a moral level. It is also hard to blame Bush for the intelligence he acted on. Many reports from several different nations all said Iraq had WMD's, not to mention, historically they have had them.
