are we to be free?

find yourself in my shoes and find the realilty of USA !! capitalism sucks it breeds greedy selfish morally corrupt people !! we are slaves in the USA in 2009!! there is no freedom anymore,, you must work (SLAVE) for someone else to live in usa . Redding california as many other cities across the USA are passing laws that is ILLEGAL to be HOMELESS .. OMG!! wtf has happened to our country Tent cities are popping up all over I am considering myself going to the one in sacramento., as its a daily battle to get food and hide from police, cant even begin to think about healthcare WTF!! I was supposed to be in a 1yr treatment program in 2007 I was kiked into street with nothing and could'nt take INTERFERON SHOTS living in streets, shit is fucked up. sure I can change my situation but I have to throw my morals all my pride and LIE\CHEAT\STEAL
and not give a fuck about anybody but myself !! steal their money and laugh all the way to bank !! thats what america has become ,,common petty theives shame shame on you!!

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Originally Posted by Weezard

My dear D. of N.

I'm the, so far, single other vote.

Why is that?

Well, someone I respect said it for me.

"the entire purpose of this poll is to see how many of you believe that the possibility of excellence is worth the risks involved. i have my doubts as to whether its outcome will be of any use, so many seem not to understand the meaning of the term "individual" and others are too involved with the details of our political mess to see a broader picture. "

You just may be fishing in the shallow end of the gene pool, my friend.

If I had a clear, and objective view of our shared reality, I would be tickled to toss out an either/or, answer.

My only consolation?
Knowing that I do not know.
Hey! It's a start.:D

Try just bein' nice to each other and see if that don't help.
Aloha,
Weezard

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you leave me a bit confused here (as does most of humanity, i have to admit). i thought i had made it quite clear that the question was not whether the individual should put the welfare of others ahead of his own, but whether he should be allowed to make that decision on his own. we seem to have reached a point where many people believe that compassion and empathy should be legislated into existence, we all know that there are many folks out there that just aren't capable of seeing the world that way and many more whose resentment at being coerced will drive them from what would otherwise be a natural inclination. being "nice" to each other is really the only way that a society can hope to survive more than a few hundred years without collapsing under the weight of its own disgust.

as for the pond i've been sampling from, it is large and varied. some of the most intelligent people i've ever met have been incredibly ignorant, being too focused on the minutiae to even realize the philosophy behind their ideals, and true individuality is so out of style that many believe themselves to be unique though they are merely mimicking the latest trends.

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Originally Posted by veggii

capitalism sucks it breeds greedy selfish morally corrupt people !!

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greed is a part of humanity and has nothing to do with the economic or political system under which we live. we see greed every day (everyone does), but we also see good will and charity unless we turn a blind eye to it. the people of this country give a higher percentage of their wealth to charity each year than any other country on earth and you have the audacity to claim that we are a morally corrupt nation?

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we are slaves in the USA in 2009!! there is no freedom anymore,, you must work (SLAVE) for someone else to live in usa .

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we must work, starve or seek charity. those are the options. those have always been the options. effort brings a chance of success and indolence brings poverty and death, these too have been constants since the beginnings of man. the creation of wealth brings with it the possibility of charity so that those unable to provide for themselves may be given aid, but only effort can create that wealth. somebody's gotta do it. if not you then who?

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Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity

you leave me a bit confused here (as does most of humanity, i have to admit). i thought i had made it quite clear that the question was not whether the individual should put the welfare of others ahead of his own, but whether he should be allowed to make that decision on his own. we seem to have reached a point where many people believe that compassion and empathy should be legislated into existence, :lol5:
we all know that there are many folks out there that just aren't capable of seeing the world that way and many more whose resentment at being coerced will drive them from what would otherwise be a natural inclination. being "nice" to each other is really the only way that a society can hope to survive more than a few hundred years without collapsing under the weight of its own disgust.

It's not that hard to do.
Comes naturally, if allowed.
I think that is because caring for each other is in everyone's rational self interest.
Lot less work than carryin' grudges, yah?

as for the pond i've been sampling from, it is large and varied. some of the most intelligent people i've ever met have been incredibly ignorant, being too focused on the minutiae to even realize the philosophy behind their ideals, and true individuality is so out of style that many believe themselves to be unique though they are merely mimicking the latest trends.

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In truth, each is unique, just, probably not in the way they imagine.;)

I can see you've given this some thought.
So, let me get serious for a moment.

I had to vote other because I did understand the question.

He is "allowed" to choose, that "allows" himself to choose.
Or, more simply.
Most non-physical limits are self-imposed.

And, I fear that our tribal mind is no longer rational enough to be trusted.
So self determination is just NOT a yupnup.
There are as many degrees of "freedom" as there are definitions.

OK, nuff o dat.
Gonna put my :D back on.

Just my random thoughts.
I'm not actually advocating anything at all, y'all.

Though I do recommend more love.

:stoned: Wee Zard

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Originally Posted by veggii

find yourself in my shoes and find the realilty of USA !! capitalism sucks it breeds greedy selfish morally corrupt people !! we are slaves in the USA in 2009!! there is no freedom anymore,, you must work (SLAVE) for someone else to live in usa .

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You my friend are actually pissing me off. How the hell is doing an honest day's work equivalent to slavery? Your post is ignorant beyond retaliation...

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Redding california as many other cities across the USA are passing laws that is ILLEGAL to be HOMELESS .. OMG!! wtf has happened to our country Tent cities are popping up all over I am considering myself going to the one in sacramento.,

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My state seems to be fine. Maybe the liberal agendas in California have caused the poverty. Has that ever crossed your mind? I live in a very conservative state and our economy is doing very well. The only tent's I have seen are in the woods... Perhaps your state needs to rethink their values and politics.

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as its a daily battle to get food and hide from police, cant even begin to think about healthcare WTF!! I was supposed to be in a 1yr treatment program in 2007 I was kiked into street with nothing and could'nt take INTERFERON SHOTS living in streets, shit is fucked up.

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First of all, if things are so bad how are you using the internet to post on this site? Secondly, if it is so bad, why the fuck are you hiding from the police? If homelessness is illegal and you are homeless, why not accept the free room and board?

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sure I can change my situation but I have to throw my morals all my pride and LIE\CHEAT\STEAL

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Yes you can change your situation. Bitching about how much your life sucks and how horrible our country is won't accomplish shit though. Clean your self up and go look for a decent fucking job. Mexicans can seem to find work, go pick some goddamn grapes at a wine vineyard for less than minimum wage if you have to. Instead of complaining go do something!

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and not give a fuck about anybody but myself !! steal their money and laugh all the way to bank !! thats what america has become ,,common petty theives shame shame on you!!

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Really, that's what America has become? Why don't you try living in Africa for a few years, or fucking Cuba. Your ignorance has pissed me off beyond belief. I'm sick of people acting like they aren't in control of their own life. Get off this fucking forum and go find a goddamn job! If you have one and can't afford to live: MOVE!

Has it honestly never occurred to you to maybe save up a few bucks, hop on a train, and take a chance in a new state? You act like you have nothing to loose, so be proactive and stop fucking bitching.

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Originally Posted by Weezard

He is "allowed" to choose, that "allows" himself to choose.
Or, more simply.Most non-physical limits are self-imposed.

So self determination is just NOT a yupnup.

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though i have to agree that choice cannot really be denied by anything other than the self, the system under which we live will effect our tendency toward self-determination and direct the path our society follows. a restrictive environment that denies the importance of the individual breeds a people whose imagination is stunted and who will be more prone to follow the will of others. those living under a system that cherishes individual accomplishment above the actions of the herd are more likely to strike off in different directions and expand the pool of common knowledge and experience. one glorifies stagnation, the other growth.

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There are as many degrees of "freedom" as there are definitions.

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can a man in shackles be free? some would say it's entirely possible, but it's a difficult proposition. a man beaten long enough may begin to enjoy the pain and even to find a sort of freedom in his abuse, that doesn't mean he can find his full potential in such misery.

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Though I do recommend more love.

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love, kindness, empathy, charity. none of these are really affected by the tawdry world of politics, but our tendency toward them is. without the outward freedom to express them as we see fit, they cease to have any true meaning.

its not so much i believe we are cogs in the wheel but to maintain an orderly society some personal rights must be put aside.

for example if someone were till murder my daughter should it not be my right to seek vengence and justice with my own hand and make the individual suffer the way i see fit? but i give up that right to live in an orderly society and hope that justice will be carried out according to the rules of society.

now or justice system is another debate for another place

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Originally Posted by yokinazu

its not so much i believe we are cogs in the wheel but to maintain an orderly society some personal rights must be put aside.

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there is a tacit agreement we all concede to in order to live in a society. we put aside such things as vengeance in order to reap the benefits of an organized community. we do not kill the murderers with our own hands nor do we steal our belongings back from the thieves, instead we depend on the law to bring us our justice. you have no right to kill and torture as you see fit. that is not justice but petty revenge. the question is not whether we should be free to follow our every whim, but how far those restrictions should be taken.

we have gone from a few restrictions that protect the masses from the deviant behavior of the few to countless restrictions that supposedly protect us from ourselves and further protect the few from the vagaries of life. we place restrictions on success and normal behavior for the sake of some imagined safe and fair society.

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Originally Posted by veggii

find yourself in my shoes and find the realilty of USA !! capitalism sucks it breeds greedy selfish morally corrupt people !! we are slaves in the USA in 2009!! there is no freedom anymore,, you must work (SLAVE) for someone else to live in usa . Redding california as many other cities across the USA are passing laws that is ILLEGAL to be HOMELESS .. OMG!! wtf has happened to our country Tent cities are popping up all over I am considering myself going to the one in sacramento., as its a daily battle to get food and hide from police, cant even begin to think about healthcare WTF!! I was supposed to be in a 1yr treatment program in 2007 I was kiked into street with nothing and could'nt take INTERFERON SHOTS living in streets, shit is fucked up. sure I can change my situation but I have to throw my morals all my pride and LIE\CHEAT\STEAL
and not give a fuck about anybody but myself !! steal their money and laugh all the way to bank !! thats what america has become ,,common petty theives shame shame on you!!

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This post kind of disturbs me a little, and also backs up my thoughts that people are starting to become more and more unaware of their own responsibilities. Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are blaming capitalism for your misfortune instead of blaming yourself. You create your own reality by the decisions you make in life. No one creates your reality for you, and tells you that this is the life you have to live. Greed has always been in society since the beginning of man. Greed has been in existence before capitalism was ever an idea. It is part of human nature to have greed, some just have more greed than others. Greed is not always related to money. Greed can be anything that you make more important than others. I know I could live a wealthier life if I would work harder and save, but I don't, and I have no one to blame but myself. I am the only one holding myself back from achieving the riches in life. Some of the riches I just don't care about, and then there are some that I would like to achieve some day but, if I never achieve them it is my own fault, not societies.

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Originally Posted by yokinazu

its not so much i believe we are cogs in the wheel but to maintain an orderly society some personal rights must be put aside.

for example if someone were till murder my daughter should it not be my right to seek vengence and justice with my own hand and make the individual suffer the way i see fit? but i give up that right to live in an orderly society and hope that justice will be carried out according to the rules of society.

now or justice system is another debate for another place

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How many of your personal rights are you willing to put aside? Also, what personal rights need to be put aside to maintain an orderly society? I think that if we have laws that forbid one from murdering another, and causing any other loss, then we have created an orderly society. Federal programs do not create orderly societies, but create unruly societies. They allow for the separation of people by class, and makes it acceptable to label others. I for one do not believe that any of my personal rights should be trampled for the betterment of society. Really, does that make much sense when you actually think about it?