national debt guessing game
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Originally Posted by maladroit
that sounds like socialist innuendo...will you correctly label yourself a SOCIALIST? of course not! fire and police are essential services...so is health care...you wouldn't expect people to buy private fire/police service insurance to protect them in the event of an emergency, so what supports your opposition to universal health care besides dogmatic capitalist ideology?
Fire, police, roads, national defense etc... are essential services. Health care on the other hand is not. You must have me confused with an anarchist.
Why is it perfectly acceptable to buy a new car valued at $30,000, but it is completely invalid to expect a person to pay $30,000 for a surgery that will save their life?:wtf: Health care is a matter of personal responsibility, as nobody can force you to live in a healthy manner.
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if it is the greatest piece of legislation, why was it amended 27 times? surely the greatest piece of legislation would not have allowed slavery...BTW: i think the constitution is not technically a piece of legislation...it's more of an outline for government's legislative body to write legislation, and executive body to implement legislation, and judicial body to judge disputes/crimes based on legislation, in accordance with the principles outlined in the constitution
It allows for amendment, though a democratic process. Yet the first 10 amendments (Bill of Rights) cannot be voided, although democracy seems to be roaring its ugly head. Slavery is a touchy issue because in reality, slaves were not considered to be citizens of the US, not that i am condoning it.
The US constitution was the original legislation enacted.
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the government (read: you) owns a majority of shares in AIG, fannie, and freddie...the monetary policy is control of those formerly private corporations
Had AIG, Fan and Fred been allowed to fail, the entire global economy would have went under rather fast... Due to the fact that government basically allowed monopoly power for these giants, they are responsible, and in fact should/will clean up their mess.
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i neither missed your point, nor failed to address your question...you asked if *canada* was getting a "free ride" on the coat tails of US national defense spending, and i provided a specific examples of US defence spending that has nothing to do with canada...apparently my rant was too brief because you turned that question into an IF-THEN compound statement, so i am happy to add some more details...*ahem*...in addition to the $6 trillion (2008 dollars) in defense spending i listed earlier, canada does not benefit from the:
- $100 billion star wars orbital missile defense program
- many of the CIA covert operations
- US nuclear weapons arsenal capable of destroying the earth many times
- $500 hammers and $500 toilet seats
Modus tollens is required to gain understanding of the situation. Canada is an ally, as well as the neighbor to the worlds most powerful military in the history of the world. Take Japan for example... If Japan did not have US protection, then they would in fact have to allocate resources currently used for their consumption, towards national defense. Japan does have the protection of the US. Therefore they will not allocate more resources towards national defense. The same can be said about all US allies. Which brings us back to the production possibilities frontier. You might wanna google again:thumbsup:
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it isn't just about wasteful US spending - that appalls everyone except military contractors...US foreign policy (which is mostly military) is the reason why the usa has to spend more money on defense and homeland security...your government drags you into war with american jingoism - you (as in we-the-people) brought this upon yourselves, and then you (goldenboy) point fingers at neutral countries and accuse them of getting a free ride...guess what? for the past few decades, we usually haven't going in the same direction, so thanks for the offer of a free lift, but we're not headed that way
Again, see production possibilities frontier...
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YES! of the $10.2 trillion national debt, $4.2 trillion is intragovernmental holdings, primarily in the form of money borrowed from social security trust fund, which has to be paid back somehow if people are going to collect social security...a few years ago, president bush stood on the steps of the social security department, and declared that the social security program (which is still generating a profit) was basically bankrupt because the SS trust fund was made up of worthless IOU's from the treasury department...that's just one example
This still does not prove that a $10 trillion deficit will curtail government ability to provide those social programs you enjoy... I will explain why in a second.
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as ron paul explained, foreign banks might stop lending money to the world's greatest debtor, which leaves the US gov't and it's social programs dependent on the whims of foreign, and often unfriendly countries...they are less likely to extend more credit after uncle sam's recent binge that crashed the global economy...credit is getting tight ya know
It would be a good idea to understand what exactly is government debt. A US savings bond is in fact the most common form, known more a US Treasury Certificates. The current swing in the economy has pushed a rather large amount of money into government guaranteed securities. Reason be, its guaranteed. I have all of my investments out of the markets, and in T-Bills (almost one year ago). A good friend of mine has lost a little over 30% on his entire portfolio because he was going to "ride it out". He did not believe the economy could tank the way it did, and now is paying the price. In fact i am making money while others are losing. Although it is very little gain, it is much better than a loss:jointsmile:
This is why foreign governments and banks buy T-Bills. It is guaranteed!!!!! They will never stop, and if they do, it will be because the world is coming to an end.
Read the statement above...
national debt guessing game
im a commy and i think we should line up all the elites in the world and just burn them alive rockefellers morgans u get the pic and completely eliminate a the central banking crap
national debt guessing game
"Fire, police, roads, national defense etc... are essential services. Health care on the other hand is not."
- no personal offense intended but that's messed up
"You must have me confused with an anarchist."
- what does that have to do with health care being designated as an essential service? most developed countries in the world designate health care as an essential service and they have formal leadership hierarchy in government and health care systems
"Why is it perfectly acceptable to buy a new car valued at $30,000, but it is completely invalid to expect a person to pay $30,000 for a surgery that will save their life?"
- i can't believe i have to explain this: people don't die if they can't afford a $30,000 car...they might be wistful, or maybe even resentful, but they will survive
"Health care is a matter of personal responsibility, as nobody can force you to live in a healthy manner."
- what happened to your life saving surgery example? we're not talking about eating right, exercising, and taking your vitamins...that's not essential health care
"Due to the fact that government basically allowed monopoly power for these giants, they are responsible, and in fact should/will clean up their mess. "
- you make a good point there...fannie and freddie's assets and mortgage backed securities added up to about $5 trillion in 2007...but their share of the subprime market was less than 20%...over 80% of the risky mortgages were made outside of freddie and fannie...should the us taxpayer have to clean up that too? the us gov't took over fannie and freddie and is now using them to buy nearly worthless mortgage backed securities from banks on behalf of the US taxpayer (i think that's what they're doing)
"If Japan did not have US protection, then they would in fact have to allocate resources currently used for their consumption, towards national defense. Japan does have the protection of the US. Therefore they will not allocate more resources towards national defense."
- you don't know that if-then relationship is a fact (sorry, i don't know latin for "pulling the consequent out of your ass" haha?)...technically, all nations enjoy pooled military resources under the united nations...when iraq illegally invaded kuwait in 1991, the united nations kicked hussein's ass back into iraq....the entire cost of the first gulf war was around $60 billion, but it only cost the usa about $9 billion...that was cheaper than enforcing the unilateral no fly zones between wars...if canada was located in europe instead of north america, it would probably spend about the same on it's military thanks to the shared defense committments...but what if canada didn't have friendly relations with the usa? looks at russia: it is currently on the usa's superpower shit list and they allocated only $40 billion for defense in their 2008 budget, or about 2.2% of it's GDP (a tiny fraction of US military spending)...canada set aside $18 billion for defense in 2008, or about 1.5% of it's GDP (and that is twice as large as russia's military budget on a per capita basis)...IMO canada would not be compelled to spend a lot more on defense if the usa reduced it's military budget because canada doesn't have a lot of enemies as a result of constantly invading countries...canada doesn't run roughshod over the rest of the planet, bullying countries to join the so-called drug war...canada doesn't overthrow democratically elected governments because they aren't capitalist enough...canada doesn't need hundreds of military bases around the world...canada has the second largest oil reserves on the planet so it doesn't need to control middle east oil and politics...the usa's belligerant foreign policy costs a lot, and creates a lot of enemies, which creates the need for more money to defend the homeland...the usa isn't spending all that military money to defend the rest of the countries in the world - it's spending it to attack more countries than it defends
"This is why foreign governments and banks buy T-Bills. It is guaranteed!"
- they are not fully guaranteed...foreign governments take a loss when their low interest t-bills depreciate on the foreign exchange markets...foreign governments get nervous about lending increasing amounts of money to a government that cannot control its own finances...banks get skittish when the treasury secretary writes a letter to congress informing them, "unless the debt limit is raised or the Treasury Department takes authorized extraordinary actions, we will be unable to continue to finance government operations":
FOXNews.com - Snow: Congress Needs to Help U.S. Pay Bills - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum
"Read the statement above..."
- what statement? that you think T-bills are guaranteed? maybe the treasury secretary, the president, and congress should read the above statement cuz they aren't so sure
national debt guessing game
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
what does that have to do with health care being designated as an essential service? most developed countries in the world designate health care as an essential service and they have formal leadership hierarchy in government and health care systems
Another logical fallacy, and ill refrain from using latin; bandwagon fallacy.
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i can't believe i have to explain this: people don't die if they can't afford a $30,000 car...they might be wistful, or maybe even resentful, but they will survive
People who cannot afford $30,000 surgery should get health insurance. You did take my statement out of context. I am willing to bet the majority of sub prime lendee's do not have private health insurance. Yet they can afford or attempt to afford to make big ticket purchases?
The real question is, why has health care costs skyrocketed? Insurance regulation via states, and malpractice prevalence are big contributors.
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what happened to your life saving surgery example? we're not talking about eating right, exercising, and taking your vitamins...that's not essential health care
What about smoking or even extreme sports? If you eat McDonalds for breakfast, lunch and dinner, you most likely develop medical complications over time.
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you make a good point there...fannie and freddie's assets and mortgage backed securities added up to about $5 trillion in 2007...but their share of the subprime market was less than 20%...over 80% of the risky mortgages were made outside of freddie and fannie...should the us taxpayer have to clean up that too? the us gov't took over fannie and freddie and is now using them to buy nearly worthless mortgage backed securities from banks on behalf of the US taxpayer (i think that's what they're doing)
Kinda, but not really. The treasury, with collaboration with the Federal Reserve will be identifying and then purchasing desired liabilities. I am not positive as to the pricing mechanism used to facilitate trade.
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you don't know that if-then relationship is a fact (sorry, i don't know latin for "pulling the consequent out of your ass" haha?)...
Does Japan have a military that compares to their Asian counterparts?
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technically, all nations enjoy pooled military resources under the united nations...when iraq illegally invaded kuwait in 1991, the united nations kicked hussein's ass back into iraq....the entire cost of the first gulf war was around $60 billion, but it only cost the usa about $9 billion...that was cheaper than enforcing the unilateral no fly zones between wars...if canada was located in europe instead of north america, it would probably spend about the same on it's military thanks to the shared defense committments...but what if canada didn't have friendly relations with the usa? looks at russia: it is currently on the usa's superpower shit list and they allocated only $40 billion for defense in their 2008 budget, or about 2.2% of it's GDP (a tiny fraction of US military spending)...canada set aside $18 billion for defense in 2008, or about 1.5% of it's GDP (and that is twice as large as russia's military budget on a per capita basis)...IMO canada would not be compelled to spend a lot more on defense if the usa reduced it's military budget because canada doesn't have a lot of enemies as a result of constantly invading countries...canada doesn't run roughshod over the rest of the planet, bullying countries to join the so-called drug war...canada doesn't overthrow democratically elected governments because they aren't capitalist enough...canada doesn't need hundreds of military bases around the world...canada has the second largest oil reserves on the planet so it doesn't need to control middle east oil and politics...the usa's belligerant foreign policy costs a lot, and creates a lot of enemies, which creates the need for more money to defend the homeland...the usa isn't spending all that military money to defend the rest of the countries in the world - it's spending it to attack more countries than it defends
US military spending is not the premise of my argument, it is the alliances. The existence of the UN actually encourages free riding because there is not to my knowledge a military mandate enforced. Therefore some members might neglect on military spending due to anticipatoin of protection from the stronger allies. Our protecting of the world allows other nations to have a farther right shift on the PPF.
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they are not fully guaranteed...foreign governments take a loss when their low interest t-bills depreciate on the foreign exchange markets...foreign governments get nervous about lending increasing amounts of money to a government that cannot control its own finances...banks get skittish when the treasury secretary writes a letter to congress informing them, "unless the debt limit is raised or the Treasury Department takes authorized extraordinary actions, we will be unable to continue to finance government operations":
FOXNews.com - Snow: Congress Needs to Help U.S. Pay Bills - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum
US Treasury Certificates are ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED!!!!!
They have yet to default, and act as the worlds reserve currency. If by chance they do default, we will be living in the stone age...
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what statement? that you think T-bills are guaranteed? maybe the treasury secretary, the president, and congress should read the above statement cuz they aren't so sure
Have they ever defaulted? If not then your point is moot.:jointsmile:
national debt guessing game
"Another logical fallacy, and ill refrain from using latin; bandwagon fallacy."
- fair enough...so what does anarchism have to do with health care being designated as an essential service, and who are the anarchists within/behind the essential health care system?
"People who cannot afford $30,000 surgery should get health insurance."
- i agree they should, but as the recent history of wall street has demonstrated, even the richest people make stupid money decisions...should we let them die because they wanted a home to raise a family without putting aside a nest egg for life saving surgery? what if the predatory lender led them to believe that the money for the life saving surgery was guaranteed by the future increase in the value of their home that they could access with a second mortgage (at attractive introductory interest rates)? should we bum mortgage holders and out of work investment bankers die because they didn't keep $30,000 lying around for a rainy aneurysm day? suckers and losers are people too...
"What about smoking or even extreme sports? If you eat McDonalds for breakfast, lunch and dinner, you most likely develop medical complications over time."
- i am not sure how to respond...are you saying that smoking, extreme sports, and mcdonalds are part of essential health care? or that those activities should exclude participants from essential health care, or what?
"Does Japan have a military that compares to their Asian counterparts? "
- japan's military spending is much higher than it's asian counterparts despite the american protection...their total military budget is about the same as britain, and higher than every asian nation except china (which has to maintain a superpower budget)
"Therefore some members might neglect on military spending due to anticipatoin of protection from the stronger allies."
- YES! pooling our resources spreads the defense spending burden, and facilitates governments' stability and ability to protect the public interest....butter instead of guns and ploughshares instead swords...it's like essential defense insurance, with shitty coverage because the underwriters are assholes (with veto power)
"Have they ever defaulted? If not then your point is moot."
- debt is like russian roulette...it's exciting until you blow your brains out...ever hear of credit default swaps on US treasury notes? thanks to the all knowing invisible hand of the free markets, CDS are big business these days:
U.S. Treasury Credit-Default Swaps Increase to Record, CMA Says :
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide
national debt guessing game
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
fair enough...so what does anarchism have to do with health care being designated as an essential service, and who are the anarchists within/behind the essential health care system?
You were calling me a socialist (like yourself) because i am in favor of roads, police, and national defense sponsored by the government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
that sounds like socialist innuendo...will you correctly label yourself a SOCIALIST? of course not! fire and police are essential services...so is health care...you wouldn't expect people to buy private fire/police service insurance to protect them in the event of an emergency, so what supports your opposition to universal health care besides dogmatic capitalist ideology?
Only an anarchist would deem any form of government unnecessary...
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i agree they should, but as the recent history of wall street has demonstrated, even the richest people make stupid money decisions...should we let them die because they wanted a home to raise a family without putting aside a nest egg for life saving surgery? what if the predatory lender led them to believe that the money for the life saving surgery was guaranteed by the future increase in the value of their home that they could access with a second mortgage (at attractive introductory interest rates)? should we bum mortgage holders and out of work investment bankers die because they didn't keep $30,000 lying around for a rainy aneurysm day? suckers and losers are people too...
That is the whole point for insurance, so you do not have to pay severe out of pocket expenses.
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i am not sure how to respond...are you saying that smoking, extreme sports, and mcdonalds are part of essential health care? or that those activities should exclude participants from essential health care, or what?
It was to show you that Health insurance is only a factor in overall health. Ones health is ones own responsibility. That includes how you pay for it. My mothers health insurance is almost $800 per month because she has a pre existing condition. $9,600 per year is nothing compared to the treatment she receives. But her health insurance is shit unless she invokes a lifestyle that allows her to live a normal life. She cannot smoke, eat fast food etc...
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japan's military spending is much higher than it's asian counterparts despite the american protection...their total military budget is about the same as britain, and higher than every asian nation except china (which has to maintain a superpower budget
Hmmm... Britain, France, Japan, Germany, South Korea, Australia, Canada, Italy, Mexico..... have two very distinct things in common. 1.) They are allies of the United States. 2.) Spend on average more than $1,000/ capita less than the US. Try to stay with me here, because you seem to wander off a bit. On a production possibilities frontier curve, the less available resources you allocate towards defense, the more of you are able to allocate towards consumption. Without the US as supreme protector, these nations would have to shift left on the production possibilities frontier. Without the US as a stabilizing factor, threat from aggressive nations such as Russia and China would inevitably increase. This has very little to do with nominal value of spending. Basically, we allocate more of our own resources towards military spending so that you do not have to.
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YES! pooling our resources spreads the defense spending burden, and facilitates governments' stability and ability to protect the public interest....butter instead of guns and ploughshares instead swords...it's like essential defense insurance, with shitty coverage because the underwriters are assholes (with veto power)
??? What are you talking about? This was your response towards my statement of:
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Therefore some members might neglect on military spending due to anticipatoin of protection from the stronger allies
Which is describing free riding of the US military.
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debt is like russian roulette...it's exciting until you blow your brains out...
US debt is 100% secure. There has yet to be a default...
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ever hear of credit default swaps on US treasury notes? thanks to the all knowing invisible hand of the free markets, CDS are big business these days:
CDS's are intended as a risk mitigating factor...
Whats your point though?
Do you honestly believe that by finding some obscure article negates my previous comment that US Treasury Certificates are 100% guaranteed? I cannot understand for the life of me why you would try to argue against this point, or use a worthless article such as the one above as a tool to weaken my original point. Who gives a rats ass if issuers are raising the price to insure US debt, its actually quite uncommon to do so. IMHO, it would be a complete waste of money because if the US ever did default, the entire world would go to hell in a hand basket totally devaluing the nominal payout value via hyperinflationary scenarios that would creep up in such a situation.
national debt guessing game
"That is the whole point for insurance, so you do not have to pay severe out of pocket expenses."
- and if you can't afford health insurance, you have to pay severe out of pocket expenses with your life? going back to your $30,000 car analogy; your life would be a steep price to pay if dying was the only alternative to replacing your transportation when you've fallen on hard times...very dickensian - a great time to be alive...let's bring back debtor's prisons for the mortgage bums while we're at it:
Debtors' prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Do you honestly believe that by finding some obscure article negates my previous comment that US Treasury Certificates are 100% guaranteed? I cannot understand for the life of me why you would try to argue against this point, or use a worthless article such as the one above as a tool to weaken my original point."
- that article is not obscure...bloomberg is a respected media organization, and i could easily throw up a half dozen links to other media organizations carrying that report...besides, it's a real statistic so dispute the statistic, not the reporter...the risk of default on US treasury notes is at an all time high, even if that high is not as bad as the default risk on countrywide...the point is that there isn't supposed to be ANY risk on us treasury notes, but the media has been reporting about the increasing risk for at least six months:
U.S. Treasuries' debt protection costs jump to record | Markets | Markets News | Reuters
For First Time, Treasury Notes Are Riskier Than German Bunds - March 12, 2008 - The New York Sun
national debt guessing game
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
and if you can't afford health insurance, you have to pay severge out of pocket expenses with your life? going back to your $30,000 car analogy, your life would be a steep price to pay if dying was the only alternative to replacing your transportation when you've fallen on hard times...very dickensian...great time to be alive...let's bring back debtor's prisons for the mortgage bums while we're at it:
Debtors' prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No, you do not have to make payments with ones life, you could work with the hospital to figure out a payment plan; just like if you were to purchase a car. And since your life is more valuable (hopefully) than some object, there is all the more incentive to do so. I would love nothing more to see a sample survey of people who do not have health insurance, and the things they buy instead. Some people do slip between the cracks, but that is few and far between. Negligence IMHO and from what i see here, plays a very big role.
During WWII, the debt/GDP ratio was 12/10. Comparing it to now where it is around 8/10, there is not nearly as much risk as before. That was a time of even greater uncertainty, and there were 0 defaults on US issued debt. Why is it you refuse to accept certainties. If 1 note issued on behalf of the US government defaults, in essence it is the same as all defaulting because it would cause a world wide panic in EVERY financial market. It would cause hyperinflation of the dollar, yet deflation to all other foreign currencies as the US is the biggest importer of goods in the world.
Insurance on US guaranteed debt is like insurance on the world ending. It will not matter, therefore your point does not matter. Yields are still relatively low, hence it does not matter. Why have yields declined?
Red herring arguments only weaken your stance. You are trying to come up with any possible way to discredit the guarantee of US guaranteed debt, and fail miserably. Its guaranteed, end of story, and time for you to move on...
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the point is that there isn't supposed to be ANY risk on us treasury notes, but the media has been reporting about the increasing risk for at least six months
There is always risk. Nuclear war, aliens, huge comets colliding with the earth, etc... pose a risk to US debt defaulting. There was still "risk" in the form of which you are bringing up in 1998, when the Economy was at an all time high (adjusting for inflation).
It is now all to obvious you really do not know what you are talking about...
national debt guessing game
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Originally Posted by GoldenBoy812
It is now all to obvious you really do not know what you are talking about...
You're too kind/give too much credit, I thought it was obvious from the first post in the thread :hippy:
national debt guessing game
I think some form of Universal health care, like the expansion of medicaid is something the US should look at to supplement the current private industry health care. There are far more benefits to private health care than universal health care. With private health insurance, you get more than the essential services, no waiting lists and you have more options for treatment. Canada total expenditure on health per capita as GNP is 9.7% vs 15.2% in the US with no universal health care. 21.8% of government expenditure vs 17.5 for Canada goes to Health Care.
Core Health Indicators
Something has to be done to control the escalating costs on health care. It's not a problem to ignore and every avenue for a solution should be looked at. Personal responsiblity for health is a good start, but people need to be more inclined to go to the doctors in order to prevent 30,000 surgeries. Policies should be revised so the system becomes less complicated due to overwhelming regulation.
