Why should McCain or Obama be President
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Originally Posted by daihashi
It doesn't change the fact that People here FREAK OUT when you say you don't believe in socialized healthcare.
I mean literally freak out and lash out and call you names. It's ridiculous that people make such assumptions based on something that was never said. It does not justify their actions or make it right and FRANKLY I'm tired of seeing members attacking people like this.
There are many times I want to tell people to get out of America if they don't like it. These people though are people who sit on their asses all day and complain about how they don't like the Right or the government but then don't try to do anything about it.
This is America and ALL of us have the opportunity to institute the change it is that we are seeking. When people constantly BASH our own country because they feel the Government isn't doing enough for them.... it's frustrating.
In my opinion unless you're willing to try to change what it is you don't like about this country, whether it's through supporting a politician you think holds the same values as you, voting on local legislation, trying to run for office yourself, being an advocate for a group or join an organization that is attempting to further your cause; unless you are willing to do something more than sit on your ass then I don't think people have the right to bash this nation of ours.
You are not entitled simply because you pay taxes. Being an American is more than that.
I'm not in favor of paying the way for people who do not work and sit on their asses all day either, but I really don't think there is a lot of that going on in this country. That idea is a leftover relic of Reagan's "Welfare Queen" imagery. It's not a big problem.
But there ARE huge healthcare cost problems for millions of people in this country who are hardworking. That is a real problem, not an imaginary problem like the myth of the welfare queen.
The problems are mainly that there are millions of people who do not have group healthcare coverage through their employers or through some other organization.
If you do not have group healthcare coverage, it is prohibitively expensive for many people to get decent coverage, even if they are hardworking and make a decent paycheck.
If they have a pre-exisitng condition, and do not have group healthcare coverage, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get healthcare coverage.
If they have a pre-exisitng condition, and DO have group healthcare coverage through an employer, they can be trapped in a situation in which they cannot afford leave that job for any reason, including disability. People do things like work their job through chemo-therapy for fear of losing their job and the insurance that is keeping them alive.
We've already gone over the details of the two healtcare plans offered by Obama and McCain in the "Does McCain/Obama Repreesent Change" threads. And neither one of those two plans is anything close to "socailized medicine." Characterizing Obama's plan as "socialized" is a lie.
I don't know anyone who is for socailized medicine. I know a lot of people who are interested in affordable insurance and a guarantee that they aren't going to get screwed out of their insurance just bacause they actaully get sick and need their insurance or they decide they need to change jobs.
I think Obama's plan addresses the problem of affordability, the problem of accessibility for those with pre-exisitng conditions, and the problem of portability for those who change jobs. It will solve a lot of problems for hardworking people who are getting screwed today.
Why should McCain or Obama be President
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Originally Posted by dragonrider
I'm not in favor of paying the way for people who do not work and sit on their asses all day either, but I really don't think there is a lot of that going on in this country. That idea is a leftover relic of Reagan's "Welfare Queen" imagery. It's not a big problem.
I grew up in the 'ghetto'... in the 'wards'. I assure you that the Welfare Queen is not imaginary.
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But there ARE huge healthcare cost problems for millions of people in this country who are hardworking. That is a real problem, not an imaginary problem like the myth of the welfare queen.
Again free country, they can either demand healthcare from their current employers or seek opportunities elsewhere that will give them the benefits that they need. If these people are hardworking then they could try to find another job. Health should be the INDIVIDUAL's responisibility first and not the government.
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The problems are mainly that there are millions of people who do not have group healthcare coverage through their employers or through some other organization.
And why is this the fault of the government like everyone acts like it is? Can you show me where in our countries history it says "entitlement to free health care".
Again, free country and there are plenty of employers who will pay for your insurance. After all currently as of 2008 61% of Americans are covered by their Employers.
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If you do not have group healthcare coverage, it is prohibitively expensive for many people to get decent coverage, even if they are hardworking and make a decent paycheck.
Yes it is, but again for the people who can provide for themselves.. they have to decide what is more important. Their health or saving that money. If they can't do without either then they should probably be looking for a job that suits their needs better. It's cold and callous but no one is stopping them from getting what they need/want. You make your own opportunity in this country.
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If they have a pre-exisitng condition, and do not have group healthcare coverage, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get healthcare coverage.
If they have a pre-exisitng condition, and DO have group healthcare coverage through an employer, they can be trapped in a situation in which they cannot afford leave that job for any reason, including disability. People do things like work their job through chemo-therapy for fear of losing their job and the insurance that is keeping them alive.
I do believe that it should be mandatory to allow an employee leave of absence due to illness.
Also like I said, I'm actually licensed. If your employer has their benefits package written well then they will have a 'true' blanket policy. You have to hunt them out.
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We've already gone over the details of the two healtcare plans offered by Obama and McCain in the "Does McCain/Obama Repreesent Change" threads. And neither one of those two plans is anything close to "socailized medicine." Characterizing Obama's plan as "socialized" is a lie.
Socialized means that it uses public funds to create a service. So in a sense.. Medicaid is socialized, Medicare, Welfare.. all these programs are socialized programs
What I don't support is a complete redesign of our current healthcare system to put it under the governments control. Look what they've done with all the other Major programs they have and look at how awesomely they all suck!!!
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I don't know anyone who is for socailized medicine. I know a lot of people who are interested in affordable insurance and a guarantee that they aren't going to get screwed out of their insurance just bacause they actaully get sick and need their insurance or they decide they need to change jobs.
I think Obama's plan addresses the problem of affordability, the problem of accessibility for those with pre-exisitng conditions, and the problem of portability for those who change jobs. It will solve a lot of problems for hardworking people who are getting screwed today.
He could just as easily help people by writing a sort of Patient/Employer Bill of rights to protect people who are in situations like you. We don't need the government run our healthcare system. Do you really want a bunch of corrupt politicians taking your money and essentially flushing it down the toilet.
Again look at some of our current programs. Social Security is a perfect example of a program that's so far screwed there is no chance to save it.
PS: I do not have health insurance... I could probably use it but I still don't want a hand out from the government.
Why should McCain or Obama be President
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Originally Posted by daihashi
Over the last 20 years Employer based insurance has fallen from 70% to 61%. This seems to indicate a problem in the system and not something that needs to be enchanged entirely. I believe currently we have something like 18% of people without insurance. Are we going to punish 61% of Americans for the 18% of people who don't have insurance? Where is the logic in that?
I do not know if the numbers and percentages yo quote are accurate, but I definitely know the MATH doesn't work like that. No one has ever said the people who do have insurance (61% according to you) need to pay for the insurance of those who do not have it. No one is planning to "punish" the people who do have insurance to pay for those who do not.
If you are talking specifically about Obama's plan, then you should know that it does not propopse to give "free" healthcare to most of those unisured people either. So for the most part no one would be paying for those people's new healthcare except themselves. Many of the people who do not have insurance could afford to pay for it and would pay for it is they had access to group rates through a group plan. But they don't have access, so they can't afford it. The plan would give them access to a new group healthcare plan, and most poeple who wanted to use it would pay for it themselves. That's not "socialized."
Why should McCain or Obama be President
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Originally Posted by dragonrider
I do not know if the numbers and percentages yo quote are accurate, but I definitely know the MATH doesn't work like that. No one has ever said the people who do have insurance (61% according to you) need to pay for the insurance of those who do not have it. No one is planning to "punish" the people who do have insurance to pay for those who do not.
Go to nchc.org. I've posted this information a few times now and I'm not going to repost it again. You can find it on that website.
Then google search for Americans with insurance between 2007-2008. There are several articles that indicate a 2% increase in people with employer based insurance.
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If you are talking specifically about Obama's plan, then you should know that it does not propopse to give "free" healthcare to most of those unisured people either. So for the most part no one would be paying for those people's new healthcare except themselves. Many of the people who do not have insurance could afford to pay for it and would pay for it is they had access to group rates through a group plan. But they don't have access, so they can't afford it. The plan would give them access to a new group healthcare plan, and most poeple who wanted to use it would pay for it themselves. That's not "socialized."
So tell me.. people who don't work. Do they just not get healthcare? This seems to leave a big loophole in your leaders plan.
Lastly, I don't care about Obama and my posts had nothing to do with him except when I've been replying to people after THCbongmans post. Leave Obama out of this as this has nothing to do with him.
My argument is specifically people on this forum LUNGING at other people when they say they don't want the government to give out handouts. Everyone takes offense and assumes they are talking about them. That is HIGHLY annoying and leads to fights and arguments that shouldn't happen.
I was hoping by highlighting that it would make the light go off in peoples heads that said "hey, maybe that person doesn't mean me. Maybe I should ask them more specifically what they mean.". However this wasn't the case, it figures that people would turn this back into an Obama related issue.
Why should McCain or Obama be President
FYI.. I foresee this escalating. So before anyone flies off the handle I'm just going to concede. Not because I think I'm wrong but because I don't want to see this escalate into a fight among forum members.
Just please re-read what I said and bare in mind I had no hostility, anger or ill wishes in my posts. Please read them as someone looking at this out of concern of people jumping the gun on posts here in the politics forum and unecessarily attacking fellow members over things they never said and didn't mean the way it was interpreted.
Why should McCain or Obama be President
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Originally Posted by daihashi
I grew up in the 'ghetto'... in the 'wards'. I assure you that the Welfare Queen is not imaginary.
It is an extremely small problem compared to the problem of lack of access to affordable healthcare. You are creating a false choice between completely supporting a bunch of lazy asses who don't work at all, and allowing hardworking people who are good American citizens fall through the cracks. The choice is not between those two extremes.
Obama's plan does not propose paying for everyone's healthcare on the backs of taxpayers. It doesn't force you to participate if you have your own insurance, but it does give you a tax credit to help pay for your own. It doesn't put your healthcare under "Government Control."
Daihashi, you and I went around on this subject in nauseating detail a few months ago in another thread. Because we've already covered it, I'm bowing out of this one. Good luck convincing everyone about the Democratic threat of creeping communism.
I think maybe O'Reilly is coming on, and I want to see the Obama interview. Goodnight...
Why should McCain or Obama be President
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Originally Posted by dragonrider
Good luck convincing everyone about the Democratic threat of creeping communism.
What was I trying to convince people of? I was trying to tell people to stop jumping on peoples asses over things they didn't say.
Once more you completely missed the point of my response to THCbongman. My post was actually non political but more of a reality check.
But whatever floats your boat, think about me what you will.
Why should McCain or Obama be President
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Originally Posted by daihashi
It has nothing to do with covering healthcare. If you read the paragraph correctly you would see that I was just ranting at how I'm tired of people lashing out and jumping the gun when another member says they don't support socialized health care.
The reason why it takes so long to get Medicaid and Medicare is in part to try to deter people who wish to just abuse the program. I am in agreement that it needs to be fixed/reformed HOWEVER I still am not for socializing the current healthcare system we have in place.
Over the last 20 years Employer based insurance has fallen from 70% to 61%. This seems to indicate a problem in the system and not something that needs to be enchanged entirely. I believe currently we have something like 18% of people without insurance. Are we going to punish 61% of Americans for the 18% of people who don't have insurance? Where is the logic in that? If it were close to a 50/50 ratio or even like a 60/40 ratio then it would make more sense.
Damn right I'm going to lash out. His last paragraph was downright ignorant. My response was nothing political towards him, infact there was none involved in my response. about advocating socialized health care. Saying that if you want it fixed, move to Europe. Damn right I will lash out. It wasn't about a conservative who prefers to save costs and believes the private industry performs services more efficiently, which it does. It was about the ignorance of this tra-la-la-la dream he's living in who thinks giving $20 to a charity is doing his part to help society.
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Frankly I don't care. The point is that YOU don't know how hard other people work in comparison to you. It was a moot statement and honestly I found it pointless to mention. You could work harder than me (honestly you probably do) or you could not. Point being is I don't know and there's no point in verifying. I used the wang contest because it feels like the old cliche "my dick is bigger than yours".
You are right, I don't know. I threw it out in my fit of rage.
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So jeopardizing your life makes more sense? I understand your position but you seem to have your priorities out of place.
Living > Having a Home > Having a Job > Having Insurance.... Everything that you are trying to preserve in your life is dependant on you living but you chose to skip out on your MRI.
I am sincerely sorry to hear about your situation but your logic doesn't make sense to me.
Even if you don't believe it to be true, Another job CAN be found. You can't go out and GET another life.
I can't be out of coverage at any point in time, since I have frequent visits with a variety of specialists. Sure I could find any old job, but not one as lucrative, convenient and good developing skills & experience. I don't want to ruin that because my body fails on me.
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Oh god.. You're right.. I don't have a clue. I've only worked with people who are severely handicapped, have MS, Crohns, Gastroparesis, POTS and the list goes on and on. You're right I have no clue how you're being treated </sarcasm>.
Don't assume that no one knows what you're going through. That is actually arrogant to assume no one could understand unless you're sick.
Many employers who offer employer based insurance work under a blanket policy; which means that everyone is covered. I sold insurance for a short while in my life (I hated it.. I had a moral dilemna about it) So I do actually know something about it.
All right, through my seeth of rage, I had my blinders on. However when you get sick, you get the complete experience and not just the outside view. I am the only one experiencing it. I'm not trying to say mine is more exceptional than others, many more people have it far worse than me and I'm grateful just to be where I am now. Don't get me wrong. A lot of people that do not experience this situation do not know.
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No, you're just complaining and lashing out at someone who NEVER SAID SICK PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FOR HAND OUTS.
You missed the point of my entire post that you lashed out on someone who simply felt that people should not get hand outs. My post was not even specifically about you but rather how this seems to be the going trend.
I am not cold.. I am not callous and I help many sick people in my day to day life. While no one here on this forum can attest to this personally there are a select few whom I talk to offline that have heard of some of my dealings.
Yet people like you, and another poster in another thread (who got his post deleted and I think perhaps banned) attacked me the exact same way. I've searched through the politics forum and find that quite frequently when this is brought up people always attack the person who says they don't want to help people looking for hand outs.
Guess what, Sick people.. the elderly.. the handicapped.. children.. There is a VERY HIGH probability that the posters that say they don't want to help support people looking for hand outs are not talking about the above demographics!!!
Like I said, calm down and get a grip. Not just you but any other sick person out there who thinks people are bashing them. I know first hand that no one wants to be sick. Like I said, I'm sort've surrounded by people with debilitating diseases.
Even you would admit it could've been worded in a way that touches the point of against socialized health-care instead of some pipe-dream jackassery. Yeah, I went overboard, I shouldn't have lashed out just because he doesn't recognize the complexity of the health care issue, it isn't about party, it's about life.
He did say: "Pfff sorry you got in a crash dude but I aint paying for sum bum's healthcare when he destroys his own health and I hit the gym everyday and eat right."
You think this &#&$&$ got a perspective? How did this bum destroy with own health when he got into a crash and wtf does this have to do with you working out? Self-absorbed is correct.
Why should McCain or Obama be President
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Originally Posted by thcbongman
You think this &#&$&$ got a perspective? How did this bum destroy with own health when he got into a crash and wtf does this have to do with you working out? Self-absorbed is correct.
I took this to mean people who obviously don't care about themselves getting government care paid for through citizen tax dollars when he himself puts forth the effort to take care of himself.. to keep himself healthy to keep himself out of the hospital/doctors office and keep costs down. As opposed to the person who doesn't give a f***, goes and applies for government healthcare, and is constantly in and out of the hospital because he doesn't give a shit. This is abuse of a program and wasteful spending.
I believe that's where he was trying to go with this, not try to lay blame on sick people. I think the majority of this board are compassionate to those truely in need. After all this is a MMJ site.
I'll let Onein1 speak for himself. Hopefully he can sort out what he meant by that for you. :hippy:
Why should McCain or Obama be President
I'd vote for Obama because i'm liberal thus i agree with his policies compared to Mccain, such as pro choice, social healthcare and a withdrawl of troops asap. Also, i prefer Obama as a person, a speaker and a visionary who will provide the change a new majority of Americans will vote for in this election. Mccain is too old (ageist maybe but i feel it's a valid point) and i dislike his VP, the pitbull with lipstick :rollseyes:
Mccain may be more experianced but he doesn't seem pragmatic or in touch with the reality a lot of American are facing. I think he's too high in the sky with his GOP buddies, sipping champagne in one of his 8 mansions. Good luck to him, a hero who loves his country. He's too reactionary for me, where as i prefer Obamas progressive values.
