Here's an idea! Let's look at McCain's flip-flops

why is there so much talk about how good/bad mccain and obama are. I am willing to bet my left testie and will stop smoking for ever if there is not a complete dirtbag that wins in NOV. It doesnt matter who wins, until we as Americans stand up and refuse to except the flawed two party system. There is no change without change. I mean come on...... dem took congress and nothing changed.

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Originally Posted by yokinazu

hey hey yall long time. race season here and my work is crazy.

has any one checked out the third party canidate? ive heard good things about the liberatarian canidate. aint had time to check him out though. but now for the point im getting at. why vote for the lesser of two evils as the old saying goes "choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil". so when we go to cast our votes dont vote because one of the two main oartys canadate is less eveil than the other in your opinion. vote for the person whos policys and beliefs are the closest to your own.

we have two main partys in this country that are both worthless in my opinion. neither seem concerned with helping the people of this country. so in my opinion screw both of them and lets get some people in public ofice who are more in align with how the american people think and feal than how their fantasy world that is holywood fed tell them how the the american people think and feel.

im called a liberal because i beleive in equality and preserving our enviroment. im against destruction of forests i beleive in non discrimination. i think my beleifs are in acordense with the majority of the american people. i do support the nra and my right to own a gun, i dont consider hunters the bad guy for killing a deer( if ya been to Ohio latly and see how many deer are there you would see that there needs to be all out slaughter). i beleive affermative action to be dicriminatory, i will never say reverse discrimination because thats like saying reverse equality. but i do not like our curent admin. i think my govt IS lying to me. i beleive we will never know what exactly happened at roswell, kennedy assassination and the world trade center. now who should i vote for? im expected to vote for obama but i cant do that because he dont stand for all the things i stand for. but mccain dont stand for all the things i beleive in.

but most important of all and we all need to ban together for this is decrmillization of the great and sacred herb. last time i seen a census on us pot heads there were an estimated 85 million ADMITTED pot smokers in the US. 85 million people will stand up and say yes i smoke pot. what about all of those that cant or wont admit it? another 20-25 mill? thats 100 million people or 1/3 of the country. we can make a differance.!! but we cant seem to get a canadate who supports us. why? it starts at home folks get out and vote every chance you get. then we will get a canadate who holds the same beleif as the rest of us.

but who am i bullshitin ill provably vote for mccain.

sorry about the rant and the misspellings i blame it on the booze

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JUST FYI on the Libertarian candidate ( I support Ron Paul) His name is Bob Barr, he is another major Flip Flopper. Flip Flopped on MMJ and various other things. A lot of libertarians are upset that he is our nominee. Basically the selection is shit this year IMO, If paul ended up running he would get my vote but tahts not happening, so as I said earlier ill follow p4B's idea, the lesser of 2 evils. Screw socialism.

There is an attempt at a write in campaign for Dr. Paul.
I understand there is not a chance in hell that he will win,
however any publicity helps the cause of freedom.
Perhaps I will reweigh my decision to choose the least of two evils.

This is an idea inspired by Daihashi on a deleted thread. to examine McCain's flip-flops and either prove them right or wrong. I wrote about a flop yesterday on that particular thread was deleted. I decided since I did the research, I should post about it anyway:

Examining:

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6. FISA, Domestic Surveillance and Telecom Immunity. When it comes to the Bush administrationâ??s program of domestic spying on Americans, McCain has performed similar logical gymnastics. On December 20, 2007, McCain suggested to the Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Charles Savage that President Bush had clearly crossed the line. As Wiredâ??s Ryan Singel noted:

â??I think that presidents have the obligation to obey and enforce laws that are passed by Congress and signed into law by the president, no matter what the situation is,â?� McCain said. The Globeâ??s Charlie Savage pushed further, asking , â??So is that a no, in other words, federal statute trumps inherent power in that case, warrantless surveillance?â?� To which McCain answered, â??I donâ??t think the president has the right to disobey any law.â?�

But on June 2, McCain adviser Holtz-Eakin put that notion to rest, telling the National Review:

â??[N]either the Administration nor the telecoms need apologize for actions that most people, except for the ACLU and the trial lawyers, understand were Constitutional and appropriate in the wake of the attacks on September 11, 2001.â?�

Pressed to explain the glaring inconsistencies, John McCain on June 6 played dumb, deciding that cowardice is the better part of valor. As the New York Times reported, McCain now believes the legality of Bushâ??s regime of NSA domestic surveillance is unclear and, in any event, is old news:

â??Itâ??s ambiguous as to whether the president acted within his authority or not,â?� he said, saying courts had ruled different ways on the matter. â??Iâ??m not interested in going back. Iâ??m interested in addressing the challenge we face to day of trying to do everything we can to counter organizations and individuals that want to destroy this country. So thereâ??s ambiguity about it. Letâ??s move forward.â?�

As for immunity for the telecommunications firms cooperating with the White House in what before August 2007 was doubtless illegal surveillance, there too McCainâ??s position has evolved. On May 23, campaign surrogate Chuck Fish announced that McCain would not back retroactive immunity â??unless there were revealing Congressional hearings and heartfelt repentance from those telephone and Internet companies.â?� Subsequently, the McCain campaign swiftly backtracked, claiming its man supports immunity unconditionally.

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I'm here to show that McCain never flopped since he never flipped to begin with. I believe he showed his words in the first quote very carefully and precise. His voting record shows he's consistantly for more surveillence and less independent oversight of governmental agencies.

Of the 37 pieces of legislation on security issues, he had 14 no votes making his position harder to evaluate.

Let's look at a couple of bills that help prove that point:


The link of McCain voting record on national security issues:

Project Vote Smart - Senator John Sidney McCain III - Voting Record

:

Anti-terrorism Wiretaps Amendment (1995) McCain Voted YES

Project Vote Smart - Anti-terrorism Wiretaps Amendment

S AMDT 1215 to S 735: To amend the bill with respect to revisions of existing authority for multipoint wiretaps.

USA Patriot Act of 2001 McCain Voted YES

Project Vote Smart - USA Patriot Act of 2001

HR 3162: To deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes.

Highlights:

Allows law enforcement agencies to share grand jury and other information about suspected terrorists

- Strengthens security on American borders, especially Canada

- Offers rewards to citizens who assist the government in finding terrorists

- Includes measures to break up terrorists' financial networks and money laundering activities via increased communication between law enforcement and financial institutions and more rigorous oversight of financial transactions


Striking Telecommunications Companies' Civil Immunity for Surveillance McCain Voted NO

Project Vote Smart - Senator John McCain on S Amdt 3907 - Striking Telecommunications Companies' Civil Immunity for Surveillance

S Amdt 3907 to S Amdt 3911 to S 2248: To strike the provisions providing immunity from civil liability to electronic communication service providers for certain assistance provided to the Government.

Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 McCain Voted NO

Project Vote Smart - Senator John McCain on HR 2082 - Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008

- Authorizes classified dollar amounts to be appropriated for fiscal year 2008 for intelligence and intelligence-related activities for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Department of Defense, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, the Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, the Department of the Air Force, the Coast Guard, the Department of State, the Department of the Treasury, the Department of Energy, the Department of Justice, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the National Reconnaissance Office, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, and the Department of Homeland Security (Sec. 101).

- Requires $39.00 million to be transferred from the Director of National Intelligence to the Attorney General for the National Drug Intelligence Center (Sec. 104).

- Authorizes $262.50 million for the Central Intelligence Agency Retirement and Disability Fund (Sec. 201).

- Directs the Director of National Intelligence to implement a multi-level security clearance system for persons proficient in foreign languages or with cultural, linguistic, or other subject matter expertise "critical to national security," and to annually report to Congress regarding the foreign language proficiency of the intelligence community (Sec. 303, Sec. 414).

- Requires the Director of National Intelligence to submit a report to Congress no later than March 31, 2008, regarding the use and impact of private contractors in the intelligence community, as well as the accountability mechanisms that govern their performance (Sec. 307).

- Requires the Director of National Intelligence to submit a report to Congress no later than March 31, 2008, outlining plans to increase the recruiting, hiring, and retaining of diverse candidates (Sec. 309).

- Directs the Director of National Intelligence to conduct vulnerability assessments for major systems, which are defined as significant programs of the intelligence community with projected total development and procurement costs exceeding $500.00 million (Sec. 311).

- Directs the Director of National Intelligence to present annual reports to Congress regarding the acquisition of any major systems and to notify Congress within 60 days if development costs for any programs significantly exceed the baseline costs (Sec. 313, Sec. 314).

- Increases the time of potential imprisonment for disclosing the identity of undercover intelligence officers and agents from 10 to 15 years (Sec. 324).

- Requires the Director of National Intelligence to report to Congress within 45 days after the date of the enactment of this bill regarding the detention and interrogation methods used by the intelligence community (Sec. 326).

- Mandates that no person in the custody or within the control of an element of the intelligence community, regardless of that individual's physical location or nationality, shall be "subject to any treatment or technique of interrogation not authorized by the United States Army Field Manual on Human Intelligence Collector Operations" (Sec. 327).

- Requires all members of the Congressional intelligence committees to be fully updated on intelligence regarding the Israeli military action in Syria on September 6, 2007, before more than 30 percent of authorized appropriations may be expended (Sec. 328).

- Requires the Director of National Intelligence to report to Congress regarding the nuclear intentions and capabilities of Iran and North Korea (Sec. 407).

- Establishes an Office of the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community to objectively investigate and audit the conduct of the intelligence community (Sec. 413).



USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization McCain Voted YES

Project Vote Smart - USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization

HR 3199: To extend and modify authorities needed to combat terrorism, and for other purposes.

Highlights:

- Assigns three judges who reside within 20 miles of the District of Columbia to hear individuals' petitions concerning improper requests by the FBI for library circulation records, library patron lists, book sales records, book customer lists, records of fire arm sales, tax return records, educational records and medical records

- Requires the Attorney General to report to the Committees on the Judiciary and the Select Committees on Intelligence in both chambers of Congress every year with the number of library, tax, and various business records orders that are granted, modified, or denied

- Increases the amount of time before a suspect must be notified of a search warrant for his or her property to 30 days after a search, unless the time period is extended by a judge

- Allows Internet service providers to disclose their subscribers information and the contents of their communications to a government entity, if they believe there is �immediate danger of death or serious physical injury�

- Requires that any court that allows a �roving wiretap� under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) must describe in great detail the intended target whose identity is not known

- Allows individuals and businesses to seek legal counsel if they have received a National Security Letter from the FBI requiring them to disclose financial information and records

- Sets the penalty for a lawyer or individual who discloses any information concerning his or her or another individual's National Security Letter of five years in prison, a fine or both

- Clarifies that a convicted terrorist can be subject to the death penalty for air piracy

- Requires the specifics of all transfers of ephedrine, pseudoephedrine or phenylpropanolamine through shipping to a private individual to be reported within a 30 day period

- Increases the punishment for any individual that manufactures or distributes methamphetamine where a child lives or is present

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Originally Posted by thcbongman

This is an idea inspired by Daihashi on a deleted thread. to examine McCain's flip-flops and either prove them right or wrong. I wrote about a flop yesterday on that particular thread was deleted. I decided since I did the research, I should post about it anyway:

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I say this sincerely and unrelated to what you said about me (whether it was meant seriously or sarcastic) but very good post. Useful FACTUAL information that cannot be denied at all.

Regardless of people's stance on the candidates I wish I saw more posts that referenced actual data to prove their point. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by daihashi

I say this sincerely and unrelated to what you said about me (whether it was meant seriously or sarcastic) but very good post. Useful FACTUAL information that cannot be denied at all.

Regardless of people's stance on the candidates I wish I saw more posts that referenced actual data to prove their point. :thumbsup:

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Eh, what I said on that post, I flew off the handle, I been a little touchy recently because of an illness in my family. I took that one guys comments the wrong way. I didn't mean to offend anyone or you so I apologize. Sorry man. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by thcbongman

Eh, what I said on that post, I flew off the handle, I been a little touchy recently because of an illness in my family. I took that one guys comments the wrong way. I didn't mean to offend anyone or you so I apologize. Sorry man. Thanks!

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"you must spread some reputation before giving it to thcbongman again"

heh.. I tried :)

I give you and your family my best wishes. I hope everything turns out for the best. :hippy: