How were you created?

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Who's definition are we going by? Yours? God's? It's certainly not mine.

The definition of God

There's a possibility for a Flying Spaghetti Monster too.

OYG! FSM exists too!

No, because there is no definition, or essence of a FSM

Only if one subscribes to your assumptions would they think that.

Not necessarily

So, why is it necessary to assume? You lost me here.

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We all hold our own assumptions about God because God is necessary in itself due to the definition of God.

1. The existence of something is intelligible only if it has an explanation. (by definition of intelligibility)

2.The existence of the universe this either

a: is unintelligible, or

b: has an explanation (from step 1)

3. No rational person should accept 2-a (by definition of rationality)

4. A rational person should accept 2-b: The universe has an explanaiton

5. There are only three kinds of explantion:

a: scientific: explantions of the form C+L->E (independent initial physical conditions, plus relative laws, yield the event explained)

b: Personal: explantions that cite the desires, beliefs, powers, and intentions of some personal agent.

c: Essential: The essence of the thing to be explained necessitates its existenceor qualities.

6. The explanation for the existence of the whole universe can't be scientific. (There can't be initial physical conditons and laws independent of what is to be explained)

7. The explanation for the existence of the whole universe can't be essential. (the universe is not the sort of thing that exists necessarily.)

Therefore

8. A rational person should believe that the universe has a personal explanation.

9. No personal agent but God could create an entire universe.

Therefore,

10. A rational person should believe that there is a God.

As a house implies a builder, and a garment a weaver, and a door a carpenter, so does the existence of the universe imply a creator.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

We all hold our own assumptions about God because God is necessary in itself due to the definition of God.

1. The existence of something is intelligible only if it has an explanation. (by definition of intelligibility)

2.The existence of the universe this either

a: is unintelligible, or

b: has an explanation (from step 1)

3. No rational person should accept 2-a (by definition of rationality)

4. A rational person should accept 2-b: The universe has an explanaiton

5. There are only three kinds of explantion:

a: scientific: explantions of the form C+L->E (independent initial physical conditions, plus relative laws, yield the event explained)

b: Personal: explantions that cite the desires, beliefs, powers, and intentions of some personal agent.

c: Essential: The essence of the thing to be explained necessitates its existenceor qualities.

6. The explanation for the existence of the whole universe can't be scientific. (There can't be initial physical conditons and laws independent of what is to be explained)

7. The explanation for the existence of the whole universe can't be essential. (the universe is not the sort of thing that exists necessarily.)

Therefore

8. A rational person should believe that the universe has a personal explanation.

9. No personal agent but God could create an entire universe.

Therefore,

10. A rational person should believe that there is a God.

As a house implies a builder, and a garment a weaver, and a door a carpenter, so does the existence of the universe imply a creator.

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But of course God doesn`t need a creator. God is the only thing that gets a free pass on this implication because it suits your view. Why does the rationality stop at god, why can it not stop at the existence of a universe?

The existence of God is intelligible not because it was caused by anything or anyone, but because it flows from his essence. God cannot fail to exist. God exists necessarily. It is God's essential nature to exist. And in this regard, God is very different from anything in the universe. God's existence logically follows from God's essence.

Of course it is. The universe's purpose obviously can't be simply to exist. that would negate the need of a god, and we can't have that. Sorry, you can't have that.

Hope to see ya on Mt. Zion :rasta:

I guess that means you're done arguing and it isn't illogical for someone to believe that God doesn't exist.

*edit* I'm not saying you're wrong, but to imply that you know the exceptions to rationality is misleading at best.

haha what a question......I was forged outta alien steel and a NYC cupcake

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Of course it is. The universe's purpose obviously can't be simply to exist. that would negate the need of a god, and we can't have that. Sorry, you can't have that.

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The point of debating is not to win, rather to become enlightened.

If going by the definition of God, (he is perfect) then for God not to exist would be an imperfection.

I don't expect to convince anyone, i believe what i believe, as do you. We can only gain knowledge from each other's perspective. No one can actually know for a fact, whether or not God actually exists. This leads people to scepticism. Doubt is the vestibule to truth. Like i've said, I used to be agnostic, however, after experimenting with cannabis and reading about the Rastafari (head creator) That really opened up my mind and too many coincidences have happened in my life, i truly believe Jah want I around to fulfil his philosophy and to share that knowledge with anyone who is willing to listen. Spirituality is personal, but is shared by billions of people.

What's wrong with the world is, it's not finished yet.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

The point of debating is not to win, rather to become enlightened.

If going by the definition of God, (he is perfect) then for God not to exist would be an imperfection.

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That's the whole point of debate, yes. I'm not claiming to *know*, I'm claiming ignorance, and I'm trying to figure out why you say that you do know, and your rationalities for your logic.

Why must there be something perfect in or outside of the universe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

I don't expect to convince anyone, i believe what i believe, as do you. We can only gain knowledge from each other's perspective. No one can actually know for a fact, whether or not God actually exists. This leads people to scepticism. Doubt is the vestibule to truth. Like i've said, I used to be agnostic, however, after experimenting with cannabis and reading about the Rastafari (head creator) That really opened up my mind and too many coincidences have happened in my life, i truly believe Jah want I around to fulfil his philosophy and to share that knowledge with anyone who is willing to listen. Spirituality is personal, but is shared by billions of people.

What's wrong with the world is, it's not finished yet.

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I'm sceptical myself. If I'm shown otherwise, then I'll be swayed.

if i were to explain, i would have a tripple bible's worth of spam.


the gist is long too... but here goes.


there is a begining and end to all things, nothing is forever, with the exception of, nothing, itself.

IF there is a begining it is a loop, and nothing marks the end and start of the loop.

because all that which exists is mental, mind stuff, nothing cannot last forever as a time. as the mind stuff become self aware, nothing becomes something, and the spark of evolution of nothing begins, just as it ends after periods of great suffering and strife, couppled with the will to ceace. the mind receeds back into nothing(ness).

HOWEVER, due to the rule of infinity, there are always somethigns and nothings in all infinite ends of the infinite mind, that is to say: there is no period of absolute nothingness over the whole of infinity, a contradiction to the very essence of infinity.
if infinity has no bounds, then the whole of infinity can never be one, or an absolute, but a complete collection of all sects and variations of what we percieve to be chaos.

i came and went from infinity to infinity to infinity, without conscious awareness of my travels, just like all else of infinity fluxuates.

WE are the gods of our bodies, and we symbolise, quite perfectly, the gods of US.

if we were created by some sort of god, then our cells were created by us, worship us, and know nothing about us.

perhaps, to our cells as with us, there is no true order in this life within this realm of infinity. it wont last forever, so when it ends, our energies will move on to open space(s) in other sections of infinity, as it continously fluxuates, infinitely.