delta 9 uk said:
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LOL Of course there are no known exceptions to the second law, I didn't mention any did I?
I'm saying life IS NOT a exception. You aren't even arguing with me FFS
When you argue that anything plain and clear that thermodynamics poses no challange for inorganic matter to form into complex organic information bearing structures that can reproduce (Dna) then you are argueing for another exception to the second law.
Life is an exception, this was already adressed in the original post:
How does life delay a fundamental law of the universe? It doesn't actually.
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You and your environment decay at a certain rate. But since you are alive you can eat part of your environment. As a result that piece of food is decayed very rapidly, and you remain less degraded.
How does life channel the energy found in food into the specific
functions of maintaining it's delicate and intricate structures? A major part of any living cell is it's blueprint, it's DNA. These blueprints are designs for the cellular machinery which is designed so it can acquire energy from food, carry on the functions of life, and duplicate itself over and over again. It works because it makes a path of less resistance making probable what would otherwise be impossible.
The degradation of information bearing systems such as DNA and the 2nd law are related. The link to how the 2nd law applies to energy and information is found in thermodynamic probability, a field pioneered by Ludwig Boltzmann in 1896 and confirmed by Max Plank in 1912. Modern statistical thermodynamics is used to clearly show that information is subject to the same degrading force that constantly increases the amount of entropy in our universe.
The second "exception" to the 2nd law of thermodynamics is the only way to make progress up the escalator. Things can only be more organized by intention. Intelligence and the ability to apply force are required to assemble a computer for instance, or a submarine, or a watch.
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You are basically saying:
The second law of thermodynamics says that everything tends toward disorder, making evolutionary development impossible.
The second law of thermodynamics says no such thing.It says that heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease.
Whichi s really just another way of saying the same thing. The heat cannot move to the warmer one, because that would require a decrease in entropy. Yes, when it comes to information, all things tend toward disorder.
This does not prevent increasing order because
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* the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.
It doesn't matter whether it's a closed sytstem or an open system or an isolated system entropy applies to all of them. There are no exceptions just as I've told you several times. It doesn't " power local decreases in entropy". That's not true. complex machinery in the form of life is required to harness that energy and put it to use for the necessary processes for life. Processes in living things are totally unlike any process we find in the natural chemical interactions we find in nature, or anything like the occurances in elements in molecules that are intrinsic to the chemistry and phsics of that substance. It's not following the natural processes of inorganic material but following upon a totally different path.
I already adressed this is in my previous post # 17. :
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Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Just standing out in the sun wonâ??t make you more complexâ??the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar energy. If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer, because the sunâ??s undirected energy will cause mutations. (Mutations are copying errors in the genes that nearly always lose information). Similarly, undirected energy flow through an alleged primordial soup will break down the complex molecules of life faster than they are formed.
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* entropy is not the same as disorder. Sometimes the two correspond, but sometimes order increases as entropy increases. Entropy can even be used to produce order, such as in the sorting of molecules by size.
I've already addressed this in my previous post as well Excuse me for posting it again but you're not getting it and it's too tiring to explain in on my own over and over again :
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Rensberger also fails to distinguish between order and complexity. Crystals are ordered; life is complex. To illustrate: a periodic (repeating) signal, e.g. ABABABABABAB, is an example of order. However, it carries little information: only â??ABâ??, and â??print 6 timesâ??.
A crystal is analogous to that sequence; it is a regular, repeating network of atoms. Like that sequence, a crystal contains little information: the co-ordinates of a few atoms (i.e. those which make up the unit cell), and instructions â??more of the sameâ?? x times. If a crystal is broken, smaller but otherwise identical crystals result. Conversely, breaking proteins, DNA or living structures results in destruction, because the information in them is greater than in their parts.
A crystal forms because this regular arrangement, determined by directional forces in the atoms, has the lowest energy. Thus the maximum amount of heat is released into the surroundings, so the overall entropy is increased.
Random signals, e.g. WEKJHDF BK LKGJUES KIYFV NBUY, are not ordered, but complex. But a random signal contains no useful information. A non-random aperiodic (non-repeating) signalâ??specified complexityâ??e.g. â??I love youâ??, may carry useful information. However, it would be useless unless the receiver of the information understood the English language convention. The amorous thoughts have no relationship to that letter sequence apart from the agreed language convention. The language convention is imposed onto the letter sequence.
Proteins and DNA are also non-random aperiodic sequences. The sequences are not caused by the properties of the constituent amino acids and nucleotides themselves. This is a huge contrast to crystal structures, which are caused by the properties of their constituents. The sequences of DNA and proteins must be imposed from outside by some intelligent process. Proteins are coded in DNA, and the DNA code comes from pre-existing codes, not by random processes.
Many scientific experiments show that when their building blocks are simply mixed and chemically combined, a random sequence results. To make a protein, scientists need to add one unit at a time, and each unit requires a number of chemical steps to ensure that the wrong type of reaction doesnâ??t occur. The same goes for preparing a DNA strand in a correct sequence. See Q&A: Origin of Life.
The evolutionary origin-of-life expert Leslie Orgel confirmed that there are three distinct concepts: order, randomness and specified complexity:
Living things are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals such as granite fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [L. Orgel, The Origins of Life, John Wiley, NY, 1973, p. 189]
You see? Life requires not only order but complexity as well, and this can only come from intelligence able to direct force. Proteions in dna are non-random. You should look into information science. A good book to read on it is :
In the Beginning Was Information - Answers Bookstore
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* even in a closed system, pockets of lower entropy can form if they are offset by increased entropy elsewhere in the system.
This was answered already too! You're just not paying attention. Remember the ice example:
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When ice freezes, it releases heat energy into the environment. This causes an entropy increase in the surroundings. If the temperature is low enough, this entropy increase is greater than the loss of entropy in forming the crystal. But the formation of proteins and nucleic acids from amino acids and nucleotides not only lowers their entropy, but it removes heat energy (and entropy) from their surroundings. Thus ordinary amino acids and nucleotides will not spontaneously form proteins and nucleic acids at any temperature.
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In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time.
I wasn't explicit enough. As It mentioned in the original post the kind of order, that is regularity in something like a crystal is the opposite of complexity.
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The only processes necessary for evolution to occur are reproduction, heritable variation, and selection.
That's rubbish. Not only do mutations not cause an increase in genetic information in an already formed organism (and even if they did the nimber of mutations causing losses of information and randomness and destruction of information from radiation are so much more it would work against it) but that doesn't even touch upon the processes needed to form the organism from inorganic molecules in the first place.
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All of these are seen to happen all the time, so, obviously, no physical laws are preventing them. In fact, connections between evolution and entropy have been studied in depth, and never to the detriment of evolution.
At first I felt like laughing, and then I felt began to feel very sad for you. Yes these processes : reproduction, heritable variation, and selection do indeed occur. These are natural proccesses part of natural reproduction and minor changes (microevolution) from genentic information and variability already present in dna. Oh it is indeed to the detriment of evolution. If a mutation makes things worse, how can it make things better? It's making things worse and better? You we do pass on copying errors (mutations) to our offspring in nature, and I'm not sorry to tell you that this isn't making the human race better. In fact it's making us worse. Many diseases are caused by this and physical abnormalities in humans and other animals. Radiation doesn't make things better. They've been hitting bugs with it for around a hundred years, and all they get is deformaties and variation within it's own kind. THAT's IT! Nothing else, no new wings when the isect had no information for wings, no change of hairs into feathers, no recorded credible increase of genetic information has ever been recorded. 2nd law is in extreme detriment to evolution.
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Several scientists have proposed that evolution and the origin of life is driven by entropy .
They're idiots and they should find new jobs. We arn't missing any information to make a conclusion on this. The conclusion has already been made and all the information neccessary to make it is already lying on the table.
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Several scientists have proposed that evolution and the origin of life is driven by entropy .
Randomization cannot prodice complexity. It can't. I know these kind of ideas are very typical of evolution though. For instance the current theory of the big bag proposed that all of the matter in the universe sprung out of "zero dimension" with "infinite heat". Zero dimension huh. Last I checked there zero was another term for nothing. So the universe orginated from the nonexistent dimension. It's just full of this type of stuff complwexity from randomness, life from nolife life from processes that we know to create corruption.
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I would post more. but its you who are mis-representing facts and we can't be arguing over something you don't accept as the same version of reality.
You indeed live in a different world.
