If God does not exist answer me this
Physicists, and Taoist before them, would say that there are two worlds:
Manifestations (All Matter)
Mystery (Energy)
Energy can never be destroyed but only changes forms. Sound suspiciously like cultures definition of the spirit ehh. Nothing can exist w/o energy of some sort in the universe, yet energy must have a mass to attach itself to. The main split from the western religion's definition is that if you consider energy the "spirit" the universe, you would then have to accept that rocks have spirits,birds have spirits,heathens have spirits, as all these carbon forms contain some form of energy.
If God does not exist answer me this
Which is exactly what I accept/belive, so now we have Manifestation (All Matter) and Mystery (Energy) but we also have their interlation and that is where my definition of God lies, where the two become one. Im pretty sure in most eatern philosophies and religions that is called non-duality.
If God does not exist answer me this
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Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Why is it that things are rather than are not.
Why do you assume that in the absence of a higher intelligence, the universe would end up not existing instead of existing? What would cause the universe to prefer non-existence to existence?
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That is to say why are we here as opposed to not? If you are a beliver of the Big Bang, what caused the point of singularity to 'bang' into the existence we know it as we do.
Quite frankly, I don't know why existence exists, and neither do you. I've thought about the possibilities, but without any good evidence all I can really do is speculate.
Let me ask you this. Why does God exist instead of not exist? What caused God to come into existence? Did he just create himself? If God can create himself, why can't a universe create itself? It seems that if anything is going to spontaneously pop into existence, a simple singularity is a lot more easy to believe than an extremely complex intelligent being.
As far as I can tell, the only way intelligence arises in the universe is over millions and millions of years of natural selection creating complex nervous systems. Complex systems like intelligent beings require explanations for how that complexity arose, and with living beings we have an explanation. With God we do not. It seems implausible that an extremely complex intelligence would just pop out of nowhere for no apparent reason.
A few things to consider when thinking about the reason why the universe exists instead of not existing:
1) The total energy in the universe is zero. When you add up all the energy forces in the universe, they exactly cancel each other out, such that we do not need to break the laws of conservation of matter or energy to explain the existence of matter and energy.
2) On the quantum level, pairs of particles are spontaneously creating themselves and then spontaneously annihilating themselves all the time everywhere. In rare cases these pairs of particles can be ripped apart by some force in the split second before they annihilate each other, which is why we know they're there. Is a God required to explain the creation of each and every one of these particles? If not, why is a God required to explain the singularity at the beginning of the universe?
3) If the universe did not exist, we would not be here to ask these questions. The very fact that we are capable of asking questions means that we live in a universe that is capable of evolving complex conscious beings. If there are an infinite number of universes, then logically every possible thing must exist somewhere. Since life forms are possible combinations of particles, they will exist in some subset of those universes, and we inhabit one of them. And really, there is no reason to suppose that having no universes would be a more likely scenario than having an infinite number of universes without a God to create everything.
4) If you don't know the answer to something, for example the question "Why does the universe exist?", you have to admit that you don't know. You can't just make up an answer and say you're right just because nobody else has been able to prove any other theory to be correct. You have to come up with evidence for your God theory, too.
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Now Im not a Christian Catholic are Jew but Id like to quote somthing IV read about Moses. When God spoke to Moses and gave him the 10 comandment Moses askd God what his name is so that he could tell the vilagers or whoever who spoke to him, and God said 'I AM THAT I AM'.
What's your evidence that Moses even existed? I have yet to see any.
If God does not exist answer me this
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Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
I think what im trying to do with this thread is say that science isnt the end all. It could be called a map of the world, but lets not forget about the map maker for he too is equaly important, not more not less, equaly.
fair enough I suppose. I don't see science (rightly understood) as claiming to have all the answers, or sometimes even any answers. Science is a method of progression through questioning. And God is an answer. God is just a justification to stop exploring, learning, and growing.
If God does not exist answer me this
Well lets get this straight i never assumed God was only a higher inteligence.
'Why does God exist instead of not exist? What caused God to come into existence? Did he just create himself? If God can create himself, why can't a universe create itself?' The universe is one aspect of God so like God is self creating. God to me is not a higher inteligence only but he all of existence from matter to life to psychological and beyond. Now the nature of this self creating im not sure of. But I think there is somthing in us as human beings that has been there since the big bang and hte creation of our univers that is on its way to self realizing. May I ask your thoughts on what is evolving and where is it going? Does it have a destination or is it random?
Again I apologize for my refrence to the big bang in my opening statments, its a completly differnt conversation.
Im not citing moses as a scientific reference nor do i take the bible to be fact, nor have i read the damn thing. I just thought it was a kool saying.
If God does not exist answer me this
May I add that God is probly the most intricate and complicated and misunderstood word in all languages because it has no objective proffs. The only way to understand it is to ask your self what is God. I mean the words existed as long as man almost so it must ahve some reality to it, a very subjective and even personalized one if you ask me.
If God does not exist answer me this
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Originally Posted by BoilerUp
I really hope everybody realizes that this statement is an oxymoron. BoilerUp Im not trying to attack you but I strongly feel the need to point out first of all that String Theory is not by definition a theory. A theory has a defined outline and methodology that anybody can test and prove or disprove. String theorists have been trying to make the math work and then create a matching model that can coexist without error for over 50 years. There has been no major progress in string theory since the 70s. In fact I just attended a debate in Washington D.C. with Richard Krauss on that very subject a few months back.
The second thing I would like to mention is that anybody using Wikipedia as their only definitive source of information is setting themselves up for embarrassment. Yes, it has much useful information in there, and some of it is correct, but not all. It is the "online encyclopedia anybody can edit." Is that what you want at your back when you are spouting off self-truths??
String theory has some right ideas and its headed in the right direction compared with other things, but string theorists are too obsessed with the math and forget to think about the model.
If God does not exist answer me this
GOD does exist. If you believe there's evil, then you have to believe there's good.
If God does not exist answer me this
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Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Ill make my proposition of ARE a little more clear, there is the physical reality im talking about of couse but what hasnt come up to now is the subjective ARE. There are objective things to be percived such as the universe or a beautiful woman and there are subjective things doing the seeing and perciving. Lets say you take out the universe or all the objective things about it or as you call it 'the tangible dimensions of the universe' what would happen to the subjective thing ( id like to call it the human spirit ) would it then percive nothing?, according to my interpertation of what you said it ( the subjective thing ) would still be able to percive the higher energy which you talk about, well lets hypotheticly take that away as well for the sake of argument. So now we have Nothing to be percived all that is left is the subjective which without an objective isnt realy a subjective, it aswell is nothing. So we can conclude that subject and obejct are codependnet. ( id perform the same logical experiement in the reverse but dont wana fill too much space :P) So the fact of our 'world' is that there are things to be seen and seers to see them and a relation between the two making them codependent. So walter what the hell does this bullshit have to do with God?! We cant find God by scientific objectivism, we certainly cant find God through blind faith to a religion, and we cant find God only through individual perspective. Where we can find God if you ask me is in the relation of subject and object, the relation of the objective tool of science and the subjective seeker. With no one to use science there is no science, thus disproving that science is all.
Id like to hear more about your energy thing tho, what are the higher ones you alude to?
Here ya go... this is a thread I started a while back to post my current view on how things might be.
To address your paragraph, I would have to agree with you at this juncture that subjective and objective are codependant. To remove all objective events in the universe leaving only subjective would create a completely different universe, though, with a completely different set of rules. Maybe there are dimensions where this exists, however, and it can be somehow be perceived in ways we cant fathom. Im not quite sure, but its an interesting thought. And I would also like to add that I agree with you that science is not all. By ANY means. There is Science, and there is faith. By faith Im not referring to religion or spirituality, but simply faith. Faith that we are here walking around on this planet doing the things that we are wondering if we are really doing or not.
If God does not exist answer me this
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Originally Posted by Adrenaline Rush
GOD does exist. If you believe there's evil, then you have to believe there's good.
Good and evil are opinions. They are relative to the observer. What you view is evil I might not. There can be no universal constant for good and evil.
