A path to faith with science
Nature, I am not going to respond point for point in regards to the pantheon thing, because I dont see a point in it.
To put it simply, I find it humorous that you say we need to look at texts in the bible to clarify one of God's laws. I didnt see anything next to that commandment that said, (see such and such). Its a law, it stands on its own, and its very clear. He says worship no other gods. The next commandment is seperate from the others. They are all seperate from each other, otherwise that commandment wouldnt be a commandment, but a subsection of the one before it.
God said dont worship any other Gods before me. I want to know what other Gods those might have been.
He also says dont make any idols, of him or anyone else, and worship them. He doesnt want them worshiping any idols, including those of him, because he wants all the worship to go directly to him himself. He doesnt even want to compete with images of himself.
And since we have shown, in a round about way, that this God is what some might consider a jealous and petty God, and you need look no further then the Old Testament for proof of that, I dont think it would be a stretch to think that he would try to ensure that people didnt believe in anyone but him by claiming he was the one and only god.
Thats just going on all the documented things that were written in the bible. Do I think God is those things? Idk, but if he really is, I would have to question if he isnt just something much more advanced then us, and not an actual god.
A path to faith with science
And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil
Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.
This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
Then they shall answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them.
And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt
The LORD will be terrible unto them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen.
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Case and point. Natureisawesome believes in his God, which clearly is a different God than the ONE I worship.
If his God exists, then there are many gods, but there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD!
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever."
A path to faith with science
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Nature, I am not going to respond point for point in regards to the pantheon thing, because I dont see a point in it.
To put it simply, I find it humorous that you say we need to look at texts in the bible to clarify one of God's laws. I didnt see anything next to that commandment that said, (see such and such). Its a law, it stands on its own, and its very clear. He says worship no other gods. The next commandment is seperate from the others. They are all seperate from each other, otherwise that commandment wouldnt be a commandment, but a subsection of the one before it.
You havn't the slightest clue as how to go about exegesis. It doesn't matter that it's seperate from the others. The fact that the very next verse refers to graven images (i.e. false Gods) clarifies the meaning. And there's no room for inference to take it to mean he's referring to real Gods. It a simple statement : Have no other Gods before him. If he was talking about false Gods that's a very normal way to say it. to He says himself over and over again that there are no other Gods. You argue God "cannot have made a mistake", so is he making a mistake there? Your interpretation is in trouble now. "no other Gods" can also refer to Gods which have no idol such as Allah. I just can't believe you're arguing this. It's so obvious that you're heart is hardened and you bicker about foolish things. If you argued that before any Hebrew scholar he wouldn't take you seriously. He would very likely laugh at you, even if he wasn't a Christian. You're wasting my time.
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God said dont worship any other Gods before me. I want to know what other Gods those might have been.
There are none, like He says, there are no other Gods. You're going to to twist scripture like that and say God cannot lie so thus and thus, but he clearly states there's no other Gods multiple times and you don't take it as evidence at all. Oh he couldn't have been lying before, but he's lying now is he?
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And since we have shown, in a round about way, that this God is what some might consider a jealous and petty God, and you need look no further then the Old Testament for proof of that, I dont think it would be a stretch to think that he would try to ensure that people didnt believe in anyone but him by claiming he was the one and only god.
He might seem like a foolish and petty God to someone who is a fool and has no understanding. There is one type of love given to animals, one type given to children, another type given to men, another variation given to your wife, and there's a special type of Love for God. He deserves our worship. He deserves our dedication to him as God only, and it's great sin and blasphemy to worship some false God that cannot save. It's personally insulting and a great sin. It's a lack of love to God, and that's a greater sin than anything else. I completely understand how he is "jealous", and that is not petty, that is righteous. A man would be "jealous" if his wife went off with another man. A mother would be "jealous" if her children disregarded her who raised them and went off and honored some other woman. How much more then should, we give honor and Love and worship to God who created all things and has given us life?
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Thats just going on all the documented things that were written in the bible. Do I think God is those things? Idk, but if he really is, I would have to question if he isnt just something much more advanced then us, and not an actual god.
There are more than a few examples of idol worship in the bible and God condemning it in the books of Moses. I already showed one verse in Deuteronomy (actually more than one) where God claimed there is no other God. And you have no argument to choose one book or chapter and discriminate against the other books. Actually you have no reason to disregard any of them, they are all authentic historical records by all standards.
There are however, false living Gods. Paul talks about these. I don't suggest you try to "know" them to well at all, especially since they are demons.
1 corinthians 10
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19What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
A path to faith with science
Is it neccessary to insult me and my views with every post you make?
Its either lying about what I said, which you still have yet to ever address, or insulting me in some manner or another.
I am now a waste of your time, because you dont like the questions. Poorly a savior would look upon you, for so easily giving up on someone who might be saved.
You seem to take this stance that anything I bring up must be my personal opinion or belief in some manner or another. But that is not the case, nor has it been throughout this entire thread. My stance is of no importance to this conversation. I am merely bringing up points, some of them from that very link you claimed was elephant hurling, in an individual context related to what you are discussing, so that you might address it.
And what standards are they considered completely factual historical record? Can you show me a reference where it states such? A non-biased source would be best.
And as I said before, and you did not respond to at all, a petty God such as the one described in The Old Testament would not be beyond lying to those around him, as such an act is also petty. Someone who is fighting to try to gain belief with a large number of people is better to claim that he is the only, then to claim he is one of many.
And to claim that god is actually jealous speaks leagues. You admited it. You even attempted to justify it. And jealousy is a trait of those who are imperfect. Which is it? Was/Is he a jealous god, or is he a perfect being?
A path to faith with science
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for he will famish all the gods of the earth
Nature, how exactly do you famish something that is made up? Fake dieties can not be fanished, but real ones can. Deny a god all of his worshipers, so that no one exists that believes in it, and some have said you will have destroyed said god. That sounds similar to that idea right there.
There are just as many scriptures making hint to other gods existing as there are of God stating that he is the only god. There is a reason for this... if your God is infallable, then what was written there was not a mistake, and there are alot of references that just dont apply to imaginary gods.
A path to faith with science
I'm done talking about that Imitator. If you want to strive with the potsherds you can go find pass that --- . I've already adressed this and I feel my response was more than adequate. If you refuse to recognise poetic language, I'm really sorry. I'm very sorry you think that selfish or evil jealousy is the kind that God has, even when I've plainly explained it's not, and the bible shows it's not. I'm really sad that you get hung up on such things. Rightly divide the word of truth, Imitator.
I think I'm also very sorry that my thread has been totally abused and repeatedly brought off topic, that I've been pushed to repeatedly deal with side issues that are not necessary for the purpose of this thread.
At first, I had no problem answering peoples other questions, and I have been slow to anger. But I am sick and tired of this kind of bickering. If people listen to you and they fall into the ditch, it serves them right.
No more about that Imitator. I'm done. Adress the logic in my orignal thread or do not post in here any more. I'm sick and tired of it. Please. And that goes for anybody else either. This is not for you to throw up every little objection you can think of to God. No.
The next person who posts off topic, I am reporting to the moderator.
A path to faith with science
By the way, natureisawesome. With the so-called "elephant hurling" website that I posted. I didn't expect you to answer all of them. I simply expected you to answer the ones that are of the most significance. Here, I'll pick a couple out for you and then it won't be "elephant hurling," okay?
1. God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs - read it to its full extent, and answer it well. I don't want any beating around the bush and stupid justifications like "oh well god made it that way so that is how it must be" kind of bullshit.
2. God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs
3. God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs
4. God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs
Four simple questions.
I also wanted you to read the whole website, and see the other side of the story. Remember, there's not always one side. That especially goes for religion.
I can't wait to hear about how these questions are invalid, or contribute to "elephant hurling."
A path to faith with science
You might also want to watch the videos on that site, too. Such as the "The Bible is Repulsive" video. In fact, watch them all. Religion is bullshit. I have nothing wrong with people turning to the bible to clean their lives up from drugs or something, but anyone that seriously lives their life to the bible is obviously brainwashed. At least the drug addicts have a reason other than "that's the way it is." It's a system of control.
And by the way, with the crusades... the Bible DOES support the crusades.
A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I'm done talking about that Imitator. If you want to strive with the potsherds you can go find pass that --- . I've already adressed this and I feel my response was more than adequate. If you refuse to recognise poetic language, I'm really sorry. I'm very sorry you think that selfish or evil jealousy is the kind that God has, even when I've plainly explained it's not, and the bible shows it's not. I'm really sad that you get hung up on such things. Rightly divide the word of truth, Imitator.
I think I'm also very sorry that my thread has been totally abused and repeatedly brought off topic, that I've been pushed to repeatedly deal with side issues that are not necessary for the purpose of this thread.
At first, I had no problem answering peoples other questions, and I have been slow to anger. But I am sick and tired of this kind of bickering. If people listen to you and they fall into the ditch, it serves them right.
No more about that Imitator. I'm done. Adress the logic in my orignal thread or do not post in here any more. I'm sick and tired of it. Please. And that goes for anybody else either. This is not for you to throw up every little objection you can think of to God. No.
The next person who posts off topic, I am reporting to the moderator.
Report me then. At this point, with your insulting tone, and your insulting of anyone elses viewpoint, I think you wouldnt like the results on your end either. The ONLY reason I havent reported you myself is because you were continuing the conversation, which interested me.
I have yet to bring up something that didnt have to do with the subject at hand. You just dont like the questions, so you are trying to limit what can be asked, and what can be said, in some sort of facist way.
But you want to stick to easier subjects, with yes or no answers and no challenge on your part? Stuff that you can get your answers from AiG? How about this one then.
It is against God's laws to worship any idol, even if it is of himself. Yet in almost every church you go to, you will find Christ upon the cross in the center of the church. Every person who goes there and worships is worshiping a false idol, and that much is comfirmed by the Church, since it was not allowed for a long time by one of the Popes, for that exact reason.
So do you, natureisawesome, have a crucifix anywhere? Do you wear a crucifix? What do you think of those who blatantly and willing defy one of God's laws by owning one of these idols, or going to a church which proudly displays one?
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I can't wait to hear about how these questions are invalid, or contribute to "elephant hurling."
Dont even bother, its not worth your time. Its obvious, yet again, that this is someone who didnt want to actually have a conversation about anything but exactly what he believed in, with people who agree with him. The second that we started bringing up questions in regards to things we saw as a problem with his theory and such, we met immediate resistance.
I will say I enjoyed what came of this, I truely did. I learned a decent bit of information that I had not known before, and for that I am thankful.
But nature wasnt looking for a conversation in regards to this. He was looking for people to look at his arguement and go "oh my god, I never looked at it like that, you are so right, im a christian from now on." Every time he had to explain something that he felt was self evident in regards to a topic or question we brought up, it was with condescendence, and insults. We were foolish for this, or ignorant for that, or playing stupid, in almost everything that he posted.
He has displayed a fundamental lack of understanding of basic philosophy and Buddhism, and general logic in quite a few cases. The fact that he states that his perceptions have to be correct is probably the most hilarious statement I have ever heard, considering human perception is probably THE most flawed way to try to find facts, as we can be fooled in so many ways. Optical illusions anyone?
He attacked the Four Noble Truths, without obviously having ever read them, because what he stated was completely incorrect if you take even a short period of time to read them and the scripture they come from.
He claims that science is wrong on any aspect that might disprove or cause him a problem in regards to his subject, but then uses science to try to prove what he is talking about. His science is always right, our science is always wrong.
At this point, and Id almost argue from the start although I may be being a bit too cynical, its like arguing with a 7 yr old child who is plugging their ears and just repeating themselves to try to win the arguement. Even worse, its a child repeating copy-paste stuff.
But I am done with this thread. Congratulations nature, you ran out someone who was probably one of the more enthusiastic of this thread, and one who never once ridiculed your beliefs and really only said anything negative of you once you started doing the same to me. You turned a conversation into a pissing contest, you turned a conversation into a means for you to insult everyone who didnt agree with your viewpoint, and you turned a conversation into nothing more then another typical thread by ignorant small minded religious people. Also, please note, I am not saying all religious people are ignorant or small minded, just some.
The fact that you wouldnt even begin to entertain any other possibilities, while the entire time chiding us for not entertaining your possibility, is hilarious, and hypocritical at best.
Also, you still have never disproven the Dreamer theory, therefore, its still a possibility. And Id recommend really learning what a fact, theory, possibility, and how to identify a statement of any of those apart from the other. You seem to be lacking that right now, and I think it will help you convey your point a bit better next time.
Have fun with the rest of your thread, I am unsubscribing to it. Report me if you wish.
Peace
A path to faith with science
Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks NatureisAwesome. If there is one person who is abusing this thread the most it seems to me to be you yet you are calling out others on your own thread. Since your posts are soooooooooo long it is hard to read this whole thread without getting a headache. It seems that you are more upset with people not agreeing with you and you are looking for reasons to get people in trouble based on that or you are baiting them into breaking the rules. We have a word for that and it is trolling. This is not the only thread you have done this is so if anyone is pressing the rules to the edge of the limits it is NatureIsAwesome. I'm not saying everyone else is innocent but you make it hard with your baiting and your extremely long posts to see past your own role in this but from what I see the responders have been quite respectful for the most part. I'm not going to close a thread just because people don't agree with NatureIsAwesome because no one is breaking the rules and that would be extreme censorship.
I would like to see less statements like Screw Religion or Religion is BS ,etc. Say something a little more profound people.
If people want to carry on with this thread then carry on but this thread may have steered a little off the original topic but not by much. Try to return it to center and keep it respectful!
