Will 150w HPS outperform 372w of T5HO?

Ah Ranger. I worked in the water industry for a while too! Sounds like you may have worked the water treatment end, while I worked the other end. I worked for water resources international. We made filtration systems & RO units. While water treatment plants were busy pumping chems into the water, we were busy filtering it back out! Haha!
-- I've taken the little rockwool cubes in the little baskets & hung them along the back rim of my aquariums (where the bubbles rise from the air stones) with clones in them. Rooted faster than any other way I've done it. That was due to the hormones in the tank water. The natural nutes kept them healthy, but its the hormones that encourage the rooting. :)

You water people may find this interesting, though not unexpected. I started keep track of the pH of my tap water a few weeks ago. Here are the values, taken every other day: 6.3, 5.8, 5.5, 6.5, 6.5, 5.5, 5.2, 6.2
That's some fairly large jumps and in a completely erratic, random manner. It's true that outside temps have fluctuated a lot over that period, and water temp will affect pH, but that's an alarming variance in pH if you ask me. I'm really starting to hate my tap water.

That's municipal water for you. I can't stand clorox, so I hate even turning on the tap where its city water. But there's hundreds of nasties they can pump into the water. After you told me where your water came from (disolved solids), I knew they were putting some heavy duty chems in it. I wouldn't even bathe my dog in that. Please tell me you don't drink that shit. I hate your water & I haven't even seen it! Don't get me wrong though. The minerals aren't what bother me. Its those nasty chemicals they add to it. I don't know what other pollutants would be in you untreated water, that varies by area, but minerals are needed, though they taste bad & most leave stains. You might want to consider a bottled water delivery service.
-- Ranger, he posted about where his water comes from early in this thread. Re-read that & tell him what you think.
--I'd feel better if you at least tell me you don't drink that slury!:mad:

I was in distribution, getting the treated water to the house, water lines, meters and such.

Want a scare, find out about a burn out. Lay a new line and then sterilize it, then flush the chems out. Right, they go thru the whole system, every leak, every repair an chance for a problem. So chems required by state to make safe(try to kill everything) in the water you drink and bath in(you absorb more thru skin than anywhere). I was in charge so you try to be careful, but keeping up with your labors and contractors is tough. Then there's pvc, and chlorine-like it's the good stuff.:wtf:

Here we filter all, double filter drinking and cooking, distilled for babies and baby plants and clones, rain water(not acid here) but I still like my limestone for the ladies(buffers ph).:jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by Chromophore

You water people may find this interesting, though not unexpected. I started keep track of the pH of my tap water a few weeks ago. Here are the values, taken every other day: 6.3, 5.8, 5.5, 6.5, 6.5, 5.5, 5.2, 6.2
That's some fairly large jumps and in a completely erratic, random manner. It's true that outside temps have fluctuated a lot over that period, and water temp will affect pH, but that's an alarming variance in pH if you ask me. I'm really starting to hate my tap water.

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-- See Rangers post, #73, this thread. That would be a good way to go for your plants. The fish are a bonus for trace elements, a little nutes, growth & sex hormones. Plain ole gold fish. Can be found around here @ $1.00 a doz. Freezing doesn't hurt them, but don't have them on the sunny side of the house in the summer. Theyre a cold water fish. You can't get cheaper or more natural, & fish are fun! You can find limestone at most landscape nurseries. Look for them no smaller than two fists put together. And I still don't want you to drink your damned tap water! I'm serious!
-- OMB, I'm sorry, but I don't want you to drink Chromophores tap water either! LMAO! I thought we were on Chroms thread, sorry we keep 'jacking' you! But do take note, water quality should be important to everyone. :) :) :)

Couple more pics at 4 weeks and 1 day in. The T5's are still winning, but the HPS is filling in. The HPS plants were spread open a bit today...I was going to let them just be natural, but i tied them down/open a bit. The added couple CFL sidelights are helping a bit.

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What a hell of a difference! Just lovin' me some T5's! Now imagine, get a bunch of bottle lamp kits @ walmarts, around $3.00 ea (the cord comes out the side on the bottle lamp kits, so no holes for wire need be drilled). You can use bottles, vases, but I use inverted clay pots. Heavy enough to be tip proof. Now, under the T5's, alternate plant, cfl, plant, cfl etc. Get the picture? Try it this way & I bet you throw that hps out the window! Or you could alternate cfl/plant under the hps the same way, but I'm liking the T5's too much! ;)

I do love the T5's too Mama! It's so easy with my strain to make those short little uniform bushes of cola's, and they stay nice and even when I cinch down the strings! Lol
The Stem's of the two T5 plants are like banzai tree's....thick, and branch within an inch. Crazy little bushes, hopefully I won't have any issues and it's quality smoke.

Looking good OMB. Your flowers and mine are almost identical in development right now. But I have to look up to see mine, you have to bend over! I love this system you have going here with the T5's. I'm thinking I may install mine along the walls in my bud room for side lighting. This would bring my total wattage to 1000. Your setup would seem to be far more efficient, though I guess watt per gram product is the real measure of that. Also are those paper pulp pots? We use them in the greenhouse for certain things but I never thought of using them for my Cannabis grow. How do you like them?

Yep....gotta bend over for these little Girls. The 2 foot T5 sidelight seems to be helping, but I have no hard evidence of that. The HPS girls are filling in now too. The CFL sidelights I added must be helping, thanks mama catbuds!
They are indeed paper or peat pots. Cheap, and seemed like a good idea... no problems that I'm aware of with them so far. At this point I'm just trying to get through the whole process with a decent product. There will be lot's of "Tweaking" I'm sure, but right now it's the KISS principal.
My total wattage for the T5 girls is still 372. The HPS girls are about 200 total with the CFL's. It's fun to watch, but I need to learn patience, that's for sure.
Thanks for the kind words Chromophore.

Here's an interesting mystery...The T5HO girls are showing a lot of clorosis. The HPS light Girls are not. Same water and nute schedule, same lighting, only difference is type of Lighting....Any guesses why? I sure don't know.
They started 12/12 one day apart....Sorry about pic #3. :stoned: I had to tilt my head to look at it!

Side by side...

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and the rest...

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Plumper plants, denser buds require more nutes. But if you're within 2 wks of harvest, you don't want to feed or you'll taste it in your buds. Check your trichs closely. If you think you have 3 or more wks to go, give a feeding. The most yellow leaves will fall anyway. This happens because the buds are pulling energy from the leaves. Its time for molasses if you haven't already. If the sunleaves fall at this point, its not a big geal. Remember, the calyx goes through photosynthesis like a leaf, hence the green from the chlorophyll. I think I'd go ahead & give a bloom feeding & a shot of molasses. The pics are too sm on this cell phone for me to be able to see the trichromes, but I think your far enough from harvest to give at least 2 more feedings. Basically, they are just farther ahead of the hps because of more lumens, so just remember, more light, more plant bulk, means there's more need for nutes. Do you have anything to view your trichs with? Its time to start watching. :) :) :)

Thanks Catbuds, they are 4 weeks and 2 days into 12/12 so I have time yet. They first plants did the same thing so I wasn't too worried about it. I left the fans alone this time though. I was cutting them off the first time around...:(
I have given them Canna Flora 2-2-4 with molasses mixed in. The Canna since they went to flower and the molasses started about a week ago.
Just odd how it's only the 2 plants under the T5's, not the two under the HPS...Spectrum? Heat? The 4 foot 6 bulb has 2, 6500k and 4, 2700k bulbs with 24' 6500k sidelight.
150 Watt HPS with a couple 26W? CFL's....No Clorosis.

Its really not odd at all. The fact that there's more bulk to both the plants & buds just means they require more nutes than the hps plants. Compare it to a pregnant woman. Her body is programmed to first supply the baby with nutrition. The buds are the plants babies. Do you have any veg nutes left? If you do, add just a couple of drops (I do mean just a couple) to your bloom nutes & molasses the next time you water. But, new daddy, don't fret too much if you loose the yellowed sunleaves! The calyx & bud leaf will photosynthize & produce energy for the buds. & DO start keeping an eye on trichromes. Dont be surprised if the T5's ripen before the hps. BTW, HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

There's no clorosis with the hps yet because they aren't using the nutes up as fast since they aren't as dense or developed as the T5's.

Just like catbuds said...twice. If you had a plant in the corner with less light it may very well never see senescense (leaves changing color fro old age). I've had some grows throw it's fan leaves starting off early in bloom cycle and other grows where they never did loose it's fan leaves. Loosing the leaves later in bloom is not a bad thing. If your plant is loosing lots of leaves early on it's probably hungry.

Happy New year to all!! Now pass that thing.

Thanks all. Really though, what had me wondering was the fact the Clorosis was well started earlier in development than the HPS plants are at now.
In other words, I had visible Clorosis in the T5 plants prior to the development stage the HPS plants are at right now....with no sign of any developing Clorosis.
You will have to forgive me....I tend to get hung up on "why's" sometimes. I'm not trying to beat it to death, I just want to understand it.
In my mind, if the HPS plants end up never exhibiting that kind of Clorosis it tends to point towards an effect of the lighting. Since the HPS light (and the 2 CFL sidelights) are in the 5K and above spectrum, it leads me to believe, (at this point anyway) that there is a correlation there.
...or maybe I should just STFU and figure it out. Then I will know. ;)

Well, I do know that red light tends to be "better" for flowering. But the reasons behind this still puzzle me. It is true that Cannabis uses red light to time itself, but I don't understand what the connection to chlorosis might be. One thing to consider with all of this, is that often it isn't enough to just know wattages, lumens, etc. What's really critical is PAR (Photosynthetically Active Region). I use a PAR meter in the lab, but haven't used it yet for my home grow. PAR measures the intensity of light in the relevant wavelengths, and ignores others ( for example, green). It is often surprising to discover that what appears to be a very bright light source may have fairly low PAR levels. This is the measurement that would be really useful in comparing your setups. Also temperature of the soil/water can affect nutrient absorption. Colder temps tend to inhibit uptake of minerals, especially phosphorus. You might want to stick a thermometer down in the pots and see if there's a difference. OR, we could both just STFU and let the plants do there thing.:D

Just my :twocents: but thinking maybe we should think in terms of the seasonal patterns where the strain your working with are like.
Like: Fall light because of the angle it hits atmosphere, changes it color a little. Mid-summer(veg) more straight in, more uv and blue.
Time length varies of course, as does temp, and maybe moisture. I think we can optimize everything but if we get to far off base, mother nature will pick us off.

Of course maybe I'm all wet, and global warming and the hole in the ozone layer are good things.

Hi guys! Catbuds pointed me over to this thread and I'm glad I'm reading it. Some really nice info, Chromophore and OMB. And makes me glad I chose T5 HO's when I started to grow last year. Plants have done really well under them and I think they're the way to go for me. I'm all for learning more about lighting and feeding our little friends. (Little - well I have some large plants this time 'round, so maybe I shouldn't say little....)

Peace and Happy New Year.

yeah giggle I'm in my first flowering and I let things go a bit too long before putting them in 12/12. I now have plants with 6' tops. Oops.

Yeah, me too, Chromophore! My Tangerine Dream is over 6 ft. She's currently doing the limbo, got her tied over even with the others. It's a real jungle in my grow room right now! Pretty fuzzy buds poppin' all over... Sometimes I just sit with them and admire.

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Originally Posted by giggletwig

Sometimes I just sit with them and admire.

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Probably a really good thing, your in an oxygen rich environment(euphoric), and your giving back to them(co2).
Which by the law of - give and you shall receive - may add up to some goood stuff!

I will confide that the last few nights I have gotten up out of bed at 2 or 3 am and wandered down to the basement to my grow rooms, and just stood in the flowering room for 10 minutes or so, taking it in. Then I was able to go back to bed and sleep.I'm betting OMB is doing this as well.

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Originally Posted by Chromophore

I will confide that the last few nights I have gotten up out of bed at 2 or 3 am and wandered down to the basement to my grow rooms, and just stood in the flowering room for 10 minutes or so, taking it in. Then I was able to go back to bed and sleep.I'm betting OMB is doing this as well.

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Guilty! Hahaha....Last few nights I have practically been rolling in there. Those HPS girls are making serious run now, and the T5 girls are looking pretty dramatic.
I will take a couple more pics later tonight when I'm "Rolling" in it. :cool:

Here's a couple pics. The power of the T5's is evident. The HPS is making a run, but I think this race is already over.....and I win! :cool: Think I'm at 5 weeks in today, those T5 girls are looking pretty shoddy with all those yellow leaves...but the bud's are getting huge.
I am really digging my "pocket" plants, those midget's are the cat's meow.
I should have shutoff the side light when I took pics....oops. Can't really see how heavy those branches are getting.

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Interesting. My HPS flowers are nearly identical in development to yours, and are the same age. The T5s are clearly further along. Can you get a feel for the density of the buds? Does either group seem more "airy" than the other?

Hey chromophore, The T5 buds are dense . They were pretty dense the first go, but these are even more solid. I haven't really put the "squeeze" on the HPS one's yet, so not sure about them. Hard to keep my grubby little hands off those T5 girls, the smell is heavenly.
The arms of those little stubbies are look like they are going to be solid buds to the branch bends....very cool.
I'm not sure why people end up with "airy" buds under T5's...maybe they aren't using enough Watts or total Lumen? It occurred to me that the 6 bulb 4 foot fixture I'm using is a
"narrow" beam. Supposedly directs most of the light down instead of a 270 degree arc.
Beats me, but it's working pretty well right now.
I'm working up to a run using a direct watt comparison, or at least being much closer in total watts. Which brings me to this question....
If I add another 150 watt HPS, I'm still just hitting them with 150 watts of light intensity with better penetration?....or now I have 300 watts with better penetration?
...and would I be better served swapping the 150 HPS for 400 watt HPS instead of adding another 150? Really, I don't care about using the HPS....I'm a T5 guy, I just used the HPS cause I had it laying around.
I will have to think about it....Frankly, I don't want to invest anymore money in the whole thing. It's just a small grow for personal Meds so I should really just concentrate on using and perfecting under the T5's.

The problem with trying to gauge how wattage affects growth is that it's simply a measure of the bulb's energy consumption. Technically it says nothing about the type or intensity of light output. We go around and around on this issue in our research greenhouses. The real issue is lumens (or better yet PAR), wavelengths, penetration and efficiency. Some of that is obviously connected to bulb/ballast type and wattage. But many many other variables can influence all of those qualities. I like the HPS in the sense that it produces lots of red light (I use a 600 watt Ushio Opti-Red bulb and a light spreader) as red wavelengths are useful for flowering. I think in general the more light intensity you can provide, the better, as long as it's not burning the plants or over-heating things. And OMB you may find this interesting: in playing with the PAR meter in the greenhouse, I find that light intensity drops off in a non-linear way with distance from the source. In other words, PAR at 10 feet from the bulb is far less than half the value at 5 feet. So, optimal distance from the light source may be a more important factor than many people realize.

Good stuff chromophore, very useful info. PAR's are a little out of my league at this point. Lol....I do keep the T5's within 6"s of the plant tops, and I think another big factor is the LST I do when they are only about a week into flower. It works with my stumpy strain, but I suspect I would not be so lucky with a "leggier" strain.
Talk about luck...bringing those seeds back from Maui...Germinating them 2 years later....having the lone survivor of the original 8 seedlings be 5 feet tall, and then having all clones be short and stumpy.
Damn....even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then! ;) Thank goodness plants are resilient, even I can't seem to screw 'em up too bad.

OMB trust me you are more than capable of understanding PAR. I really wish growers would get PAR meters and use that as a standard rather than watts, lumens, etc. PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) is a much more relevant and accurate way of measuring useable light. It ignores non-relevant wavelengths (such as green) so it gives a much more useful measure of your lighting intensity and your overall setup. PAR is a measurement of photosynthetic photon (light) flux. Having photon density in the right wavelengths will make a difference no matter what you are growing. Chlorophyll is actually found in several forms, and each of them absorb light energy at different wavelengths. There are a handful of other light absorbing pigments (eg carotenoids, xanthophylls) in plants that absorb light at specific wavelengths as well. Different pigments are more or less important at different stages of the plant's life, and in differing plant types. While it is certainly possible to "overload" a plant with sheer light intensity (scientists refer to this as "photo-bleaching"), in artificial grow operations the biggest problem with light is 1. not enough, 2. not the right kind, or 3. too much heat. The heated air near the light source is very hot, more than people would think. If you have glass in your light reflector, a layer of superheated air can form that will simply burn your plant. What a lot of people call "light-damage" is actually super-localized heat damage.

I am quite sure I can grasp the concept, I'm just not that scientific in my grow. (yet). I did look online for a PAR meter, they ain't cheap. So it looks like I won't be getting one anytime soon. It would appear the 35,000 Lumen of the T5's is fairly optimal for my space and strain, though I'm sure it could be tweaked for even better results.
The HPS lighting is attractive to me in regards to total Lumen and penetration, but I just can't deal with the heat. It's already been a problem in the winter, I'm going to have to revamp ventilation for spring and summer.
Then again....I do have a greenhouse. :)
Hmmmm....a 3rd in the comparison testing? Mother nature against the T5's and HPS? It would be interesting to see if the outdoor one's would stretch like the original mother instead of being Stumpies.

Looking good, just need to avert any catastrophes for another 2 weeks or so.

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Those are looking really nice!! Smelly?

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Originally Posted by tlranger

Those are looking really nice!! Smelly?

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Sure are ranger! That's the next issue I need to deal with...Filters. Nothing better than just touching those buds though...(Probably shouldn't, huh?) Walking around sniffing my finger's like a 15 YO boy who got to touch a girl for the 1st time. ;)

Damn dude things are really moving along nicely. I think your development may actually be slightly ahead of mine (I think you stated 12/12 just before I did? I started Nov.30th) Anyway those T5s are impressive. Tonight I'm going to install bank of 4x4' T5s perpendicular to my HPS box to get some wider coverage and side-lighting. Another advantage of your shorter plants is that the stems aren't falling over. Mine are so long that now that they're putting on weight they're flopping all over the place. With all of my tethers it looks like some kind of weird S&M session going on in there.

Yeah PAR meters are pricey. I'm lucky I can bring one home from the lab to use when I need it. Also there are a lot of junk light meters out there so you've got to do some digging for reliable user feedback before you dive in and pay for one.

Thanks chromophore! The T5's went 12/12 11/29 and the HPS one's 11/30. I am very pleased this 2nd go around. Better than the 1st, they actually got some 'nutes this time. Lol
Looking good, but dropping yellow fans daily....I'm a little concerned there won't be any left before they are ready to cut.
The HPS girls have just a couple leaves with clorosis, but they are just starting to yellow. I'm pretty sure I'm done with that little 150W HPS. I think I'm going to P/U an 8 bulb 2 foot T5HO for that end of my closet and use CFL sidelighting.
That's where the mama plant is going in 1 month, she should be spectacular. I have already been tying that Lady down, she is a bush!...and thirsty! She is so wide and tall, (relatively speaking as far as tall) she needs her own light.
Go Stumpies! :thumbsup:

Those are beautiful!

Losing a lot of those yellow fan leaves...I'm getting nervous, I'm only 38 day's in. :(