Subscribed. You have some serious patience. Can't wait to see the results!
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Subscribed. You have some serious patience. Can't wait to see the results!
Got to thinking about this while e-mailing Fox Farms about the situation...
Since you just transplanted into a 20 gallon pot with fresh FFOF, what does your soil probe say is the difference in ph between the old rootball and the outside edge of fresh soil you added during the transplant? Since the fresh soil hasn't been depleted, ammended or aged, there should be a discernable difference between the two.
Pretty good a customer service at Fox Farms...
I wrote them this afternoon with your basic background, where our plants were from (acidic Indonesian soil) and your desire to keep the ph down. Hopefully it helps, but here's the reply e-mail I just recieved:
Hello Rusty,
It sounds like you guys have a good grasp on the principles of soil science and indoor gardening. Hopefully I can add a few pieces of information, both practical and technical, that will help find answer to the underlying questions in your e-mail. The first area of concern is testing the soil pH.
Ocean Forest is pH buffered with oyster shell to be in the 6.3 to 6.8 pH range. The most reliable method for home gardeners to test their soil pH is to gather some samples from different plants, at different depths in the soil; mix the soil with an equal amount of purified water; let stand for an hour and test with a digital pen. Most soil probes, for pH or moisture, are very inaccurate and unreliable. I would not give a soil probe reading much value.
So, the initial soil pH is going to be in the previously mentioned range. The pH can change upwards or downwards over time due to several factors which may or may not come into play. Acidification can be caused by the degradation of peat, the accumulation of acidifying salts, rapid microbial activity, and the loss of buffering capacity. A rise in soil pH is usually associated with water quality; water hardness and alkalinity can build up over time, even with the application of nutrient solutions at the proper pH range. Salts can raise or lower the pH of the soil depending on the selective uptake of plants. Carbonate Ions in the tap water (well water also) can buffer acidity and build up in the soil, raising the pH of the soil over time. Oyster Shell is also mainly carbonate atoms, and will buffer any acidity as long as is stays in the soil. This website has some great in-depth resources on soil chemistry and pH:
SSC 102 Soil Chemistry
Plants that evolve in acidic soils have adapted their diet to be demanding of Iron (available) and sensitive to Phosphorous (un-available). This is because of the inherent availability and un-availability of those nutrients at low pH ranges, and those plants will be angry if Phosphorous is applied heavily, or the soil pH is too high. Most plants have evolved to grow in slightly acidic soils (6.5) where nutrient availability is generalized.
I hope this information is useful and helps explain our products and the pH regulating activities used by gardeners. Let me know if you have any more questions about this or any other topic. Good Luck!
Joe Alcorn
Customer Service & Technical Support
P.O. Box 787
Arcata, CA 95518
(707)-443-4369 main
(707)-269-4458 fax
[email protected]
Crap. I ammend my water ph with phosphoric acid. Guess it's something I'll need to keep an eye on.
Anyway...I hope this is as useful to you as it is for me. I'll take a look at his provided link in a bit. Time for some Ding Dongs and a soda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
Thanks for posting that!!!! :hippy:
There is a difference, there was also one watering. So the stuff had a week to adjust. The new is 5.8-6.0 or so. So the entire mass is evening out through normal diffusion/osmolality. Remember I identified the problem before the transplant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
Now there is the possibility the meter is way off on the pH. But it does show a trend, regardless to higher pH. There has to be some salt in my water supply that is causing this, dang I do not want to go back to RO:mad:
It is looking better with the main top leaves reaching up to the light again, so something right is happening, and I think it is also greener.
Need to correct the statement. Soil in the edges is 5.0.
Also note.....Fox Farms says pH of 6.5 in bag, soil tester shows 4.5
Soil tester shows water 4.5, but is by drop test 6.5.
Trend there too????
Looks better - greener - today
I'd think so. Looks like the soil probe is a couple whole points off. Beware of trusting that it is 2 points off at higher ph values though. It might not be a sliding-scale difference at higher ph's. (might be one point difference, might be 3 points difference)
I'm formulating a plan after reading the e-mail to compensate for the issues of lockout in lower ph soils. Might even revert back to Grow Big instead of Tiger Bloom, and I am stopping the Cha Ching altogether. (PO4 tollerance issues)
<sigh> Learning is such a bitch sometimes... :jointsmile:
Well, was gone overnight so she got a chance to settle a little. No change except it is greener. Still not ready for any amount of water. I would say current water content is perfect, not too wet or dry. Still have the big gradient in pH between the old root ball and the new soil. So my latest simple additive to change (lower) the pH is the Cal/Mag additive. Mixed up a 2 cup batch at pH 5.0 (ended up being 2 ml) and and moved off the new dirt from the old root ball and watered over the top of that and pushed the new soil back over the top.
I also wonder if this a normal behavior for this species as it flowers. It is always possible, though I highly doubt it. The fastest and best response was when I gave the molasses. So cal/mag is similar and takes much less to lower the pH. Tomorrow will tell me. Much warmer now, so not too worried about cold, in fact I changed the fan to circulate over the tops under the light.
I will hopefully have some photos later, been a busy time and haven't had time to download and edit for multiple projects.
Attachment 273221
Topping and shortening internode lengths.
Attachment 273223
A top
Attachment 273222
The whole look
Holy shit man, its like Little Shop of Horrors in there! :jointsmile:
Beautiful! :hippy:
Very slowly it is coming around. I have been giving very small amounts of water with high concentrations of acidic nutes/additives. I shall outline, and the process is still ongoing.
Once it was clear we were too alkaline and too wet, we cleared the new potting soil off the top of the root ball and gave a liter of water with molasses pH'd to 5.0. This resulted in the tops reaching to the lights again and improved green color.
Next day I gave PhosphoLoad, pH'd to 5.5 in the same manner in a liter of water. Maybe greener next day but not as reaching to the light.
Day next, I gave cal/mag pH'd to 5.0. (note this is almost exactly the same as giving molasses) 2 ml in a liter and poured around the outside on the new potting mix. Much greener 2 days later when I returned from out of town and reaching for the light again. So a day without water was in the middle.
Day next I gave 2 cups of water pH'd to 4 with distilled white vinegar. Will see results soon. Went and bought pH Down as I do not want to continue to give a bunch of salts.
Overall the plant is looking better, still have the clawing, but no new clawing.
The topping is so impressive I will try and not space out a pic today to show the huge difference.
Attachment 273328
Thar she be.
Okay, she has turned the corner. Looks good again. Back to giving regular watering and feeding some. The bottom never seemed to want to come back so it got trimmed. this lead to looking at the tops under a 'scope and had some interesting findings.
The tops have minimal very tiny trichomes. Nothing to write home about for sure, in fact, quite discouraging after all this time. I can only hope in the next 30-60 days it comes around.
Some have praised my patience, but it sure is running thin after seeing that.
Even after trimming, the canopy fills a 4 x 5 foot grow space, I am allowing the tops to grow up now, no further training to go sideways. There are about 30 distinct tops out of 4 main branches. When I put her in she was like 16" tall.......
Also I have pollenated a branch of her with Poker Face pollen and seeds are growing. So I will, in the future, have a new toy to try out. The way things stand now, I am not going to keep her mother alive. She must really get a lot better if she wants to have a regular place in my garden.
Looking good WW. Will be interesting to see the ThaiPoker (or whatever you name 'em) seedlings. :thumbsup:
I'm running out of milk crates to raise the other plants, but I'd rather not start trimming 'em at this stage of the game. If I tuck-n-tie any more branches, I'll be covering other growing tips.
But if they ever fill-out, this will be worth the efforts and the headaches, lol. With all the bondage, I've kept them to 3' tall above soil level. I tried measuring the mainstems, and they'd be a tad over 6 foot without the bondage. The tallest growing tips you see are lower side branches, not the mainstem(s). Looks like there will be about 5 gallons of trim after harvest. Wish I had some bubble bags.
Teeny-tiny trichomes on some of the calyx's, and evidence of early trichomes (capitate stalks forming from the hairs) on some of the leaves. No odors yet, but am starting to see pistil die-off and seed-swell from the calyx's I pollinated with some of the Safari pollen I had.
Attachment 273473 Attachment 273474
Great on the fatherhood there Rusty. I can loan you my bags when the time comes if you want.
Wow, this thing is immense. This first picture is showing part of the light hood. As you can see there is no main top, just side tops growing all over. Since the pH has improved vertical growth has begun again. I am going to let the light burn it to keep it in check, got way too much plant as it is, that is a vertizontal hood, 4' diameter.
Attachment 273778
Not being used to this sized container, I am not so sure how much water to give on a regular basis. Me beginning to think that I have dry and wet spots. About 5 liters every other day seems to be the demand with maybe a slight trickle out of one of the drain holes. Not the same one each time either. 5 liters does not spend any time on top in a pot this size, poof, gone.
The tops are different, that is all I can say. Fluffy is still a pretty good description, airy another. I still do not see any trichomes without a microscope.
Attachment 273779
Generally it is dropping leaves on the bottom, not enough light penetrates, it is up to 1K watts now. I have trimmed it back again, this makes 3 major cut backs. Tried some after drying and it is terrible green taste. UCK.
Another bud view
Attachment 273780
Now, tomorrow makes 107 days since light reduction began,
60 days since beginning of flowering.
I am assuming from what I have seen so far, that another 40 days at a minimum will be required. I am getting impatient, especially without any outward sign of trichomes.
At least I am past half-way
Are the holes in the bottom large enough to stick a finger in? (the finger-dipstick mehtod)
When I went to 15 gallon pots, I added perlite and drilled a couple of 1/2 holes in the sides (about 1/2 way up) to aid with releasing moisture and providing a bit of air. If you add too much perlite, you can close the side holes with duct tape, lol. (personal experience)
Sure your wouldn't rather tie-down the reaching buds rather than cooking 'em? Growing tips are a terrible thing to waste, and it would suck to catch 'em on fire. :thumbsup:
I think getting too close will cook them before they catch fire. I actually gave a dose of phosphoload today. The holes in the bottom are 1" square. I don't know, maybe I am getting lazy, but I just want the damn thing to get done. If ever. LOL
Sure makes for an uneven canopy growing next to the other strains. Looks like mine are bulking-up again. Their history is to stretch when you're not looking though. I commend you on your sticking it out till the bitter end. If you can do this Thai indoors, you can do anything. Have you come across nanners at all? None spotted on mine. (yet)
Are you in the same room with other strains, or is this a dedicated space?
Did you have any success with the bubble bags, or are the capsules better/easier?
No nanners that I have noticed
Dedicated space
Well I cannot utilize the concentrate from bubble bags, so oil seems best for me, much easier than the bags on my back
:detective1:
Well, I think I have been learning much. I maybe have been under watering. No nanners still Rusty. I harvested the first seeds off of it today, been about 3 weeks or so since I pollenated it.
Attachment 274225
The single seed I looked at was ripe, so what the heck eh?:woohoo:
So I have learned how well Phosphoload works in the proper application. The next photo shows a space of stretching in the plant top followed by becoming more dense. The stretch was just as she recovered from her 'incident' and the stoppage coincided with the application of 1ml of Phosphoload. The plant has displayed no other untoward tendencies since the application except a desire for more water. 3/4 gallon a day has no runoff if applied slowly:weedpoke:
Attachment 274227
And finally the whole canopy. I had to move the light up to it's maximum today, the tops were 5" from the bulb. It is beginning to get odor and I noticed trichomes on the seed pods.
Attachment 274226
:thumbsup:
Mind you the space that is occupied is 4x5 feet and the canopy is 16" thick or more
Hey Wash,
Very cool you're doing Thai.. I still dream about it from the 70's. I'm also experimenting with sativa dominant plants now so I'm definitely interested in what you're learning. In my case, I have a bit over 6' of vertical space to the edge of my reflectors and have found if I flip the ones I have at ~22", they end up toping out right about 6' looking like a Christmas tree. Having good luck on Greenhouse Super Lemon Haze, but am thinking of trying Hawaiian Snow as well.. With both being hybrids, they only go 12 weeks on the long side and not as long as it looks like yours will take.
So you're a the end of week 9 in flower now; how long do you expect it to go? 15-16 weeks?
Peace, Farmer Rich
Your guess is as good as mine, I am counting in days, and figure 110 to be my 'magic number' for guestimation purposes, but the plant will tell me, I am sure
Apparently mine are on the "until hell freezes over" schedule, lol. Not the plant for an impatient gardener.
WW....very interesting grow....i am watching....excellent job.....good luck with those seeds,
Been there, lived that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
I've been following your log with keen interest. The first place I ever heard about culling males was in Thailand early 70's. I'm new so I don't have much to offer except it has been great following your log. Great work!
I just supply the worry and water, the plant does the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by stjr2k
I think today makes 75 days since flower show. I am encouraged this week as I see some trichomes on the stressed bottoms and upon a trim of bottom stuff I noted the underside of the leaves have a fair dusting.
Soil pH is now 5.6, plant is happy as a clam, bulking, nice color green, dropping a few bottom leaves due to top canopy density. Second pic is just one bud and not the main cola.
Water consumption is definitely up also. I see more bulking than vertical this week for sure.
Attachment 274502
Attachment 274503
All I can say is... Gorgeous! Nostalgia is starting to set in. I truly admire your patience and it appears your reward is finally at hand. Thanks for sharing the ride.
Well another week passes. Remember this is one single plant. I harvested the seed branches off her, don't want to induce the "I got laid" hormones more than I have to. Been having issues with yellowing again. Soil pH is running 5.8. Vast quantities of water to get runoff and I think I am just under watering. Let's hope. No ferts this week, just pH adjusted water (6.0).
The harvested stuff does have some small amber trichs, so I will cure it and get a taste I hope. :stoned:
Attachment 274744
So, that is the canopy, some is now getting heavy and falling down. Especially when I give enough water. It has warmed up here so water use is going up even though humidity is running 95% 24/7
Just the main stem
Attachment 274745
And, standing back as far as possible
Attachment 274746
wow
Man that is looking good. What i wouldnt give to have .01% of yours and Rusty's knowledge haha. You just might need a chainsaw come time to harvest haha
monster sativa buds! looking great. been watching the whole grow and wow do those buds pack on slowly but surely:thumbsup:;)
bs expert.a coworker with his nexus one always tries to show me how cool his device is but when i try to swipe on the home screen its about as smooth as sandpaper.The only droid ive ever seen that isnt god awful is the captivate. Until the response time / shuddering / or whatever it is is fixed ill never own a droid.hopefull m4v to wmv converter can solve itYou're kidding right? I live in the UK and we have 3G and HSPDA most places (7.2 mbps at peak). Please tell me that Verizon isn't /still/ on CDMA (100kbps). Is their network steam-powered?
WW...I strongly suggest you report this joker and see if the mods will clean-up the threads he's infected.
done did yesterday
I went to the garden today and found a baby in with the Thai. Must have had a seed fall off when I harvested the branch. Healthy looking little bugger. So that answers the question of which is the first new seed to try out of my pollenated plants. Needless to say, it got transplanted into an appropriately sized container with a label of Thai x Poker Face.
Pretty cool. Are the leaves showing long and skinny, or shorter and fatter? Probably a bit too soon to recognize whether it's an indica or sativa dominate. But I'm real curious what the PokerFace will do with the Thai genes.
I did learn something first-hand from growing the Thai...it's not really an indoor strain, but with enough experience, space and time, it's possible. However, it's still not something I'd recommend for a novice. I crossed mine with a version of the White Satin. I've named the strain Satin Thai if it's a keeper. Haven't germed 'em yet though.
Are you planning to keep this thread going with the new arrival?