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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Protesters say Israel had an assassination list. Israel says soldiers fired only in self-defence. So what really happened on 31 May? Catrina Stewart reports
Jamal Elshayyal, a journalist with al-Jazeera, woke with a start to the opening salvos of an Israeli assault that would transform the decks of the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish vessel bound for Gaza, into a bloodbath.
From the ship's position deep in international waters, satellite images of Israeli speedboats and helicopters approaching the vessel were beamed across the globe before communications were abruptly cut off, leaving the events on the Marmara to unfold away from the eyes of the world.
Six days after the bloody assault that left nine foreign protesters, mainly Turks, dead, nobody can recount with any conviction precisely what happened that night. The convoy of ships, whose passengers included writers, politicians and journalists, had been expected for weeks, with organisers loudly broadcasting their plans to run Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip and draw international attention to the situation there.
From the beginning, it was clear that Israeli forces were concentrating in their largest numbers on the Marmara, a ship carrying some 550 peace activists. The remaining five boats were much smaller and easily commandeered. After the Marmara was subdued, the passengers silenced, and their recording equipment confiscated, Israel disseminated a carefully choreographed account of the events that night that would dominate the airwaves for the first 48 hours.
Only as eyewitnesses, traumatised by their experiences, started to return to their home countries, were serious questions raised about the veracity of the Israeli version of events. Israeli commandos initiated the attack on the Marmara with stun grenades, paintballs and rubber-cased steel bullets. They were met with water hoses as the ship's passengers tried to form a defensive cordon to prevent soldiers from reaching the wheelhouse. Next, the helicopters started their approach, hovering overhead as they tried to disgorge commandos.
From the other ships, passengers looked on helplessly: "The worst thing was seeing the helicopter come up because I knew they were going to invade," said Ewa Jasiewicz, a 32-year-old organiser. "You could hear the screams when they started shooting ... We wanted to stop and go back but there wouldn't have been anything we could have done."
From the moment the helicopters arrived, the sequence of events becomes confused. The dizzying number of claims and counter-claims serves only to present an incomplete account of a military operation that went badly, badly wrong. More than 1.7 million viewers have pored over the edited YouTube footage posted by the Israeli navy since Wednesday. In the dramatic clip, commandos rappel down on to the deck from a helicopter, where they are met by angry activists armed with iron bars and sticks.
This is a critical point, for Israel has rallied domestic opinion on the crucial claim that its soldiers dropped into a meticulously planned riot for which they were completely unprepared. Panicked, they acted in self-defence after they landed, shooting only those who threatened them.
The video is problematic, though. The images of angry protesters are striking, but they lack context. What happened before? What happened next? Had the soldiers started shooting when they descended to the deck? The only account offered by the Israelis of what happened next is left to Staff Sergeant S, a commando who claims he shot six of the protesters.
The last of 15 to arrive on the deck, he said he saw that two of his colleagues had gunshot wounds. Pushing others into a protective cordon around the injured soldiers, he shot at the protesters to force them to fall back. It's a neat account, but several eyewitness accounts tell a very different story.
Mr Elshayyal, a reporter for the Arab channel al-Jazeera, was standing to one side of the ship and had a view of the front and back of the vessel when the fighting started. By his account, soldiers fired down on the protesters from the helicopters before an Israeli soldier had even set foot on the ship. A man next to him was shot through the top of his head, dying instantly.
"What I saw were shots being fired from the helicopter above and moments later from below ?? from the ships," Mr Elshayyal said. "As far as I am concerned, it's a lie to say they only started shooting on deck."
At least two other eyewitnesses saw soldiers firing from above the ships before they landed on the Marmara's deck. It is possible that this is what prompted the fierce resistance to the soldiers when they dropped down. Several passengers recount how organisers urged their peers to stop hitting the soldiers, aware of how it would harm their claim to be peaceful protesters.
Others on the ship claim they raised a white flag, but say that it was ignored. They also used a loudspeaker to reiterate their message of surrender and requested that the injured be taken off the ship to get medical assistance. Again, they were ignored.
At some point early on, the activists dragged three, possibly four, injured soldiers to a lower deck, either to keep as hostages or for their own safety. It was then, several passengers say, that the situation quickly deteriorated. Israel has insisted that the protesters took two of the soldiers' pistols and used them, but others claim the pistols were taken away to prove that Israel planned to use live rounds.
Below, the protesters rummaged through captured soldiers' belongings and claimed to unearth a document that they allege is a list of people Israel intended to assassinate. The booklet, written in Hebrew and in English, contained some photographs of passengers on the Marmara, including the leader of IHH, the Turkish charity that provided two of the ships, an 88-year-old priest and Ra'ad Salah, head of the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel, Mr Elshayyal said.
A military spokesman, Lt Col Avital Leibowitz, insisted soldiers acted in self-defence and that she "was not aware" of any list. But one thing is fast becoming clear ?? many of the dead were shot multiple times at point-blank range. One was a journalist taking photographs. "A man was shot ... between the eyebrows, which indicates that it was not an attack that took place from self-defence," Hassan Ghani, a passenger, said in an account posted on YouTube. "The soldier had time to set up the shot." Mattias Gardell, a Swedish activist, told the TT news bureau: "The Israelis committed premeditated murder ... Two people were killed by shots in the forehead, one was shot in the back of the head and one in the chest."
When Israeli troops had subdued the ship, they rounded up the passengers, bound their wrists, in some cases forcing activists into stress positions, and prevented them from using toilets. Mr Elshayyal said he was given just three sips of water before he was taken off the ship more than 24 hours later.
Their ordeal, of course, was not yet over. Accused of entering Israel illegally, the captives were transferred to an Israeli prison, where many were held in cramped cells and denied phone calls. Furious, Turkey sent three planes to transport the activists out of Israel, threatening to sever all diplomatic ties if they were not all released.
Meanwhile, much of the video footage confiscated from Marmara passengers remains undisclosed, and Israel has sought to undermine some eyewitness accounts by alleging some of the passengers were terrorist sympathisers bent on martyrdom.
Questions remain unanswered on both sides. But without a full and transparent airing of all the evidence, the truth of that dreadful night on the Marmara may never come to light.
In the meantime, the organisers say they will seek again and again to breach Israel's defences. Scottish protester Ali El-Awaisi said: "We sent six ships this time. Next time it will be 30 ships."
The hijacking of the truth: Film evidence 'destroyed' - Middle East, World - The Independent
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Im sure that Norways boycot of Israel will be devastating lol.....the international powerhouse that they are.:)
I see all aboard the latest "flotilla" that was boarded by Israeli commandos were all smiles and candy......funny stuff. Apparently all aboard got the message REAL fast.
Navy boards 'Rachel Corrie' off Gaza
Increasingly vocal and defiant Iran now says they will escort flotillas to run the blockade. Iran sure is scaaaaaaaared of Obama arent they.
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/...n.html?_r=2&hp
The mossad has infiltrated the Iranian Revolutionary gaurd ages ago.....what a joke, Iran is irrelavent....bring it on Religous Crazies ad Islamic Kooks.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynMO3uo5lwE[/YOUTUBE]
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
TEHRAN ?? Iran??s foreign minister has called on the United Nations Security Council to adopt a resolution against the Zionist regime to prevent Tel Aviv from committing further crimes.
Iran believes that the Security Council should regard the Israeli attack on the Freedom Flotilla as a threat to the international peace and security and adopt a resolution under the Chapter VII of the UN Charter, Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki told an emergency meeting of the Organization of the Islamic Conference in Jeddah on Sunday.
The Israeli military attacked the Freedom Flotilla in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea early on May 31, 2010, killing 9 people on board the six ships, mostly Turkish nationals, injuring about 50 others. Some human rights activists are still missing.
The attack triggered an international outcry.
Bring Zionist leaders to book
Mottaki also suggested that all should cooperate to bring the Zionist leaders behind the May 31 crime to justice.
The Security Council, the Human Rights Council, the UN General Assembly and other UN institutions as well as other international organizations should take practical measures to put the perpetrators on trial, he insisted.
Mottaki called Israeli??s attack on the aid convoy an act of state terrorism and piracy.
??The international community must realize that the raid on aid ships has pushed the sensitive Middle East region into a highly volatile situation,? he stated.
He went on to say that the Palestine issue ??is no longer an Arab or Muslim issue, rather it has been turned into the most important human rights issue in the world.?
He also hailed the idea proposed by the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to establish a fact-finding committee about the May 31 tragedy
tehran times : Iran urges action on Israel under UN chapter VII
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
So this is how you fight your battles...? With someone elses thoughts, writings, cartoons and effort? It doesn't get much lazier or uninspiring than someone not having the ability to think for themself, yet are perfectltly willing to be molded into a neo-muslim mouthpiece, unarmed with facts. Or is copy-n-paste all you are capable of adding to this topic?
Your incredibaly uninsightful blogcrap is laughable and a pitiful way to make YOUR point. (still not sure you even have a point...) :jointsmile:
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Isreal is gonna defend itself.....what would other nations do? Let the boats pass without checking and just "HOPE" there are no bomb making parts or weapons on board? Yea......don't think so. Never gonna happen.......way to go Hamas child molesters.....ur PR campaign failed on everyone except Helen Thomas of the White House Press Corps....
The radical islamic CONSERVATIVES in the Middle East SMELL weakness in Washington, and they are right.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
ur PR campaign failed on everyone except Helen Thomas of the White House Press Corps....
Seems lost on the media the fact that she said the Jews should go back to Germany and Poland. Is she refering to the Nazi concentration camps in those two countries, or is that just a coincidence? Gee. A prejudiced progressive spouting hate speach. Imagine that. :jointsmile:
Anyway...For those that haven't read-up on the creation of the Israeli state back in 1947, pre World War 2...the region was a British holding.
United Nations 1947 Partition Plan for Palestine
The UN went back through existing historical and biblical texts, and determined that Israel should have it's own state, and that it belongs where it is now. This is why Ahmadickahead (Iran's puppet president) denies the holocaust. Why...? Because without the holocaust, there would have been no state of Israel mandated by the UN. Without the mandate, they would be free to eliminate the opposition. Any ideas whom the next opposition will be once they achieve their goal? Europe? USA? ...
One can either take 5 or 10 minutes to read and understand the past, or be doomed to talk out of their ass forever. Personally, I prefer to read and understand.
Do I understand why the Arabs are ticked at Isreal for having their own state recognized by the entirety of the world...? Sure. But being pissed that you didn't think of colonial-style statehood earlier, is no excuse to preach the destruction of a race of peoples with a valid claim to the land. For centuries the land was occupied by Muslims, Jews, and Christians in tribal and inter-tribal alliances. The Muslims want you to believe the land was taken from them, which is rediculous in the face of our current understanding of old-world governance and tribal divisions.
Does anyone in here know anything about the 12th Imam? Any clues what they (the shiites) are planning to do to hasten the arrival of the al Mahdi and assure total destruction of Israel? Do you really think those centifuges are for 'peaceful' nuclear power? Not according to his 12th Imam rhetoric and habitual hate speak.
The 12th Imam
If the floatilla's aren't playing by international rules, they damn well deserve to pay the price.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
So this is how you fight your battles...? With someone elses thoughts, writings, cartoons and effort? It doesn't get much lazier or uninspiring than someone not having the ability to think for themself, yet are perfectltly willing to be molded into a neo-muslim mouthpiece, unarmed with facts. Or is copy-n-paste all you are capable of adding to this topic?
Your incredibaly uninsightful blogcrap is laughable and a pitiful way to make YOUR point. (still not sure you even have a point...) :jointsmile:
No, I am well capable of responding to your criticism. However, I choose to post the truth of what is actually going on in Gaza. Not the biased version of what is going on. I am not pro-Islam by any means, but I sympathize with the Palestinians being murdered by Jews on a daily basis.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
way to go Hamas child molesters.....
Source?
You should read the Talmud before you talk about Hamas being child molesters.
Quote:
Sick and Insane Teachings of the Talmud
Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix with honey and eat it.
Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.
Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.
Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.
Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."
Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.
Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that the Talmudic sage Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with. On one of his whorehouse romps, Rabbi Eleazar leanred that there was one particular prostitute residing in a whorehouse near the sea, who would receive a bag of money for her services. He took a bag of money and went to her, crossing seven rivers to do so. During their intercourse the prostitute farted. After this the whore told Rabbi Eleazar: "Just as this gas will never return to my anus, Rabbi Eleazar will never get to heaven."
Hagigah 27a. States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.
Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.
Gittin 70a. The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."
Gittin 69b. To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should "take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog's excrement as it loosens the limbs."
Pesahim 111a. It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads.
Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave..
Truth About the Talmud: Judaism's Holiest Book
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
It's obvious what side of the issue you're into parroting. But the evidence belies your erronious position, and your credibility wanes with each passing post.
By the looks of it, you are swimming alone in a sea of sharks...and you are floundering. Make YOUR case why we should agree. Not someone elses rhetoric and dogma. (but only if you are capable, of course) :thumbsup:
Perhaps the child molester reference has something to do with these kinds of activities:
The HAMAS marries 450 Child Brides
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
ur PR campaign failed on everyone except Helen Thomas of the White House Press Corps....
Guess who just retired?
FOXNews.com - Helen Thomas to Retire 'Effective Immediately' Following Uproar Over 'Palestine' Comments
Have a good one!:s4:
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
I wonder how you'd feel to be surrounded by about a billion people who would like nothing better than to wipe you off of the face of the earth. Oh guess what, after the Muslims wipe out Israel, they're coming for you. Do you realize that Israel has been in the cross hairs of evey Muslim country since it came into being? Wake up People and put down the bong for just a moment, I know Israel doesn't always make the best decisions, what country does? but.... the fact remains, Israel is not trying to take over other people's lands, (I know the PLO and Hamas will dispute that) They just want to live peacefully within their borders. The Palestinians have become a pawn of Iran, Syria and other terrorist regimes. With all that damm oil money and land Iran has,,,,,why don't they invite the Palestinians to live with them? Simple answer it doesn't work with their plans to wipe Israel off of the face of the earth.
Can you seriously believe that these humanitarian relief boats are all bringing in baby formula and rice?
I protested the war in Vietnam. I didn't believe there were WMD's in Iran but sometimes we have to protect ourselves when people want to attack us. If my enemy was trying to land boats near my shores, I'd be out there to do my best to check every single boat or blast them out of the water if they appeared to be dangerous.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud
A fucking disgrace this woman is, an entire career ended in a 1 minute clip with a HIDDEN CAMERA......love it. Anti-semitism at its finest. Ignorant ass people.
Check out the audio clip of the Flotilla captains telling the Israeli Navy to " Go Back To Aushwitz" and "remember 9/11"
Flotilla passengers: Go back to Auschwitz - Israel News, Ynetnews
Right now in 2010 Israel would wipe the deserts with Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas all at the same time......AGAIN.
Bunch of ignorant middle eastern rednecks plain and simple....."go back to aushwitz? Big thinkers on board those doomed flotillas huh:smokin:
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
They should send Helen Thomas to live in Poland since thats where she thinks Jews should live.....people with mind sets like this are a dying breed. Literally.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by boaz
http://www.jewishjournal.com
Why Glenn Beck Hurts Israel
by MJ Rosenberg
On Thursday, Fox News?? Glenn Beck devoted a segment of his television program to attacking me for condemning the Israeli raid on the Gaza-bound relief flotilla.
I have no problem with that. But I can??t help but feel a little sad that the Israeli government??s most vocal supporters are now on the extreme right. (My discomfort on that score was only heightened today when Beck endorsed a book by a notoriously anti-Semitic author.)
It??s no surprise that liberals are not too enamored with Israel these days??not with the Netanyahu government firmly choosing occupation and blockade over negotiations with the Palestinians.
Does that mean that the extreme right is more pro-Israel than progressives?
Actually, it means the opposite.
Progressives oppose Israeli policies that would almost inevitably lead to Israel??s dissolution. There is hardly a mainstream political figure in Israel, dead or living, (including current Defense Minister Ehud Barak and former Prime Ministers Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert) who hasn??t evinced the belief that Israel cannot survive if it maintains the occupation of the lands taken in 1967. Netanyahu??s choice of confrontation over negotiating the end of the occupation appears suicidal.
But that is the policy supported by right-wingers like Beck. They don??t admire Israel because of its intrinsic qualities but because they view it as fighting the good fight against the people they most despise: Arabs and Muslims. They will happily fight to the last Israeli in a struggle they view as part of the ??War on Terror.? If Israel is sacrificed in the name of that goal, so what? There are more important things to the right than the survival of one little Jewish country??like fighting Islam.
No doubt, the Israeli right welcomes this kind of support because beggars can??t be choosers. Nor do they much care that, when Israel finally chooses the path of peace with the Palestinians, which it will, these rightwing ??supporters? will disappear.
Israel is their proxy in the war against Islam. Once Israel stops fighting, you can count on Beck to denounce it for selling out to the socialists. (And that is appropriate. Pretty much every major institution in Israel??including the state itself, the agricultural and industrial sectors, and the military??was built by socialists.)
There is so much wrong with Beck??s response to me that I can??t respond to them all here although PoliticalCorrection.org (a project of Media Matters Action Network) does.
But there are a few points I do want to make.
continue . . .
Media Matters is a total front group for the Democrat Party going straight to their founders........well known amongst political junkies. Just google that group and enjoy the disturbing reading.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
A fucking disgrace this woman is, an entire career ended in a 1 minute clip with a HIDDEN CAMERA......love it. Anti-semitism at its finest. Ignorant ass people.
Check out the audio clip of the Flotilla captains telling the Israeli Navy to " Go Back To Aushwitz" and "remember 9/11"
Flotilla passengers: Go back to Auschwitz - Israel News, Ynetnews
Right now in 2010 Israel would wipe the deserts with Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas all at the same time......AGAIN.
Bunch of ignorant middle eastern rednecks plain and simple....."go back to aushwitz? Big thinkers on board those doomed flotillas huh:smokin:
Yeah, and Ynetnews is a Jewish supremacist news outlet. Go figure. Great sources you comeback with.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
Media Matters is a total front group for the Democrat Party going straight to their founders........well known amongst political junkies. Just google that group and enjoy the disturbing reading.
I take your word for it, I wasn't familiar with them. I was actually doing a dogpile search for General Patraeus' comments and came across that and thought it was kinda interesting. another perspective, anyways. I tend to agree with it. friends don't let friends drive drunk and allies don't let allies commit national suicide, which is what a lot of experts believe is happening right now with the newest round of "settlements".
Israel is a soveriegn country and can do what ever it wants, but lets be honest here, how long would Israel survive with out our assistance? How many more of our US soldiers will be killed in Iraq and Afgan because of Isreal's actions? This are my concerns.
But, hopefully we can keep this discussion free all the usual bs, especially now that some of the bozo's are gone. :rastasmoke:
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883
I guess if I was into hate speach and martyrdom against the USA and it's allies too, No War For Israel is where I'd get my propoganda as well.
Just a couple of follow-up questions, and I'm outta here...
Does this misguided hate make you feel better?
Do you think that posting that link would make us more comfortable with your copy-n-pasted rhetoric?
Does knowing that what you've been taught is only a minute portion of actual events, given from a socialists perspective, make you angry? If it doesn't it should. You've been played and you are still towing their party line. Or are you just another bullshit flamer wishing to stir a pot he has no understanding of...? Good luck with that, either way. :thumbsup:
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
I guess if I was into hate speach and martyrdom against the USA and it's allies too, No War For Israel is where I'd get my propoganda as well.
Just a couple of follow-up questions, and I'm outta here...
Does this misguided hate make you feel better?
Do you think that posting that link would make us more comfortable with your copy-n-pasted rhetoric?
Did you come into our home and post hate such as that and believe it's acceptable...?
Does knowing that what you've been taught is only a minute portion of actual events, given from a socialists perspective, make you angry? If it doesn't it should. You've been played and you are still towing their party line. Or are you just another bullshit flamer wishing to stir a pot he has no understanding of...? Good luck with that, either way. :thumbsup:
How do I qualify being a "hater?" Answer that. Just because I do not agree with an alliance with Israel? I am not flaming at all. Just posting valid information which is not in the "victor's" eyes. Israel is not a democracy. It is a tyrannical regime that does not have to do anything it does not want to.
How come Israel does not have to go through nuclear weapons inspections? Double standard.
Yes, Iran is using nuclear energy, but not for WMD's.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883
Yeah, and Ynetnews is a Jewish supremacist news outlet. Go figure. Great sources you comeback with.
Jewish Supremist......nice. The audio is all over the net ole buddy......hows this.....a little less Jewish supremist(LMAO) for ya?
Gaza flotilla: Go back to Auschwitz
if thats still to Jewish supremist for all you bigots
heres another
News Essentials: Audio from Flotilla ‘Activists’: ‘Shut Up, Go Back to Auschwitz
and another for ya:D
Audio/Video- WH Reporter and Flotilla passengers insult Jews - Washington Times
Sink the boats.:pimp: .......charge it to the game.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by boaz
I take your word for it, I wasn't familiar with them. I was actually doing a dogpile search for General Patraeus' comments and came across that and thought it was kinda interesting. another perspective, anyways. I tend to agree with it. friends don't let friends drive drunk and allies don't let allies commit national suicide, which is what a lot of experts believe is happening right now with the newest round of "settlements".
Israel is a soveriegn country and can do what ever it wants, but lets be honest here, how long would Israel survive with out our assistance? How many more of our US soldiers will be killed in Iraq and Afgan because of Isreal's actions? This are my concerns.
But, hopefully we can keep this discussion free all the usual bs, especially now that some of the bozo's are gone. :rastasmoke:
I just dont think ANY nation including our own is gonna tell Israel where and where it cant build settlements especially now that the majority see Obama as weak here and abroad.....i clearly remember watching for 4 days as the IDF DRAGGED jews from their settlements and MADE them leave, turning over it to the Palestinians outta some crack dream that that would change shit. It didnt and the rockets continued again. The war will never stop.....ever. even if all the Jews leave, you guys really believe Hezbollah is just gonna lay down their arms? If so your sadly,sadly, mistaken. Those islamic radical nuts seek a religous state throughout the middle east where women are nothing,music is outlawed, and people get their arms hacked off for taking a medicine shot from a westerner.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
I guess you have never heard any comments against the poor Palestinians before ...
Quote:
In September 1967 Moshe Dayan told senior staff in the Israeli Occupation Army in the West Bank that some 200,000 Palestinian Arabs had left the West Bank and Gaza Strip:
"we must understand the motives and causes of the continued emigration of the [Palestinian] Arabs, from both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and not to undermine these causes after all, we want to create a new map." (Righteous Victims, p. 338)
Moshe Dayan-A Brief Biography & Quotes
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883
How do I qualify being a "hater?" Answer that. Just because I do not agree with an alliance with Israel? I am not flaming at all. Just posting valid information which is not in the "victor's" eyes. Israel is not a democracy. It is a tyrannical regime that does not have to do anything it does not want to.
How come Israel does not have to go through nuclear weapons inspections? Double standard.
Yes, Iran is using nuclear energy, but not for WMD's.
stop using words like Tyranical regime, we listened to the sappy liberals call Bush a tyranical regime for 8 years, its lost all its meaning.
Have you even stepped foot in Israel? Or even the middle east? Im guessing NO......yeaaaa buddy......suuuuuuure......Israel is a tyranical regime......ahhhhhhhhh, thats rich.
You think America truly discloses all our WMD? You think China does? If so you haven't a clue how the game works. Judging by your claims on what Iran is building in secret bunkers in Mountains 1000 feet underground, you MUST work for the IAEA. Yea buddy......im sure that secret facility is peaceful.....of course it is.
Here's the child molester leader of Iran TODAY calling for The New World Order
Iran’s President Ahmadinejad calls for new world order | FreeorDie.org
Suuuuuure......he sounds like a stable, trustworthy guy. Idiot. Our side is winning if you couldn't tell.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
Suuuuuure......he sounds like a stable, trustworthy guy. Idiot. Our side is winning if you couldn't tell.
...and you resort to name calling. At least I have remained calm and in a respectful manner.
Do you know how much financial aid Israel contributes to America? None. All of Americans hard earned tax dollars goes towards Israel's wars.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
"WE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE, CONTROL AMERICA, AND THE AMERICANS KNOW IT."
I rest my case and have nothing else to add.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883
...and you resort to name calling. At least I have remained calm and in a respectful manner.
I beg your pardon...? You call the garbage you've posted "respectful"? Hardly. You seem to take the antagonist viewpoint without having the slightest clue what you are talking about, all the while attempting to deny and downplay the video evidence against your points. Seriously...you should really try and get good at this "I love terrorists" bullshit. Because right now, it's obvious that you are floundering and unable to properly express yourself.
There was a certain point where you went from funny, to laughable. I believe it was when you first opened your mouth, but would have to go back and double-check. :jointsmile:
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
I beg your pardon...? You call the garbage you've posted "respectful"? Hardly. You seem to take the antagonist viewpoint without having the slightest clue what you are talking about, all the while attempting to deny and downplay the video evidence against your points. Seriously...you should really try and get good at this "I love terrorists" bullshit. Because right now, it's obvious that you are floundering and unable to properly express yourself.
There was a certain point where you went from funny, to laughable. I believe it was when you first opened your mouth, but would have to go back and double-check. :jointsmile:
How do assume what I posted was garbage? It is certainly not what popular theory suggests. You are just part of the herd. Let members of this board decide for themselves.
I do know what I am talking about and do not agree with anything that comes on the electric toilet known as the television.
That's solely your opinion. What you call "terrorists" are the ones who have been invaded, fighting for their freedom. Is a person just going to stand there and let themselves get shot? No.
And you are saying the IOF(Israeli Occupation Forces) and the Mossad are not terrorists?
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883
...and you resort to name calling. At least I have remained calm and in a respectful manner.
Do you know how much financial aid Israel contributes to America? None. All of Americans hard earned tax dollars goes towards Israel's wars.
Reading back through what I wrote I agree it appeared I was calling you an idiot....my apologies....i was not. I should have been more clear in referring to the President of Iran as an idiot....not you. We may differ on politics but I do not think that people with different opinions on politics are idiots or should be banned from TV, Radio, or anywhere else. The fact that either one of us can debate on a public forum about our elected leaders is awsome to me.
I'd rather my hard earned tax dollars go to Israel (whose been fighting islamic conservative whackos for generations) than to shady mob groups like the unions and Acorn anyday.
Its regular folks with flip-cameras that will destroy the bigots this time around.....its just so suprising that soooooooo soon after the holocaust anti-semetism is rearing its nasty head again.....and once again society will have to chop off it's head with automatic weapons fire. God I hate racists, homophobes, and bigots. Ignorant cowards deep down.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
and now REUTERS has been busted again cropping photos outta the "Flotilla" incident showing the "pace activists terrorists" holding knives to the israeli soldiers. There were also 16 confirmed Hamas members aboard this boat of passion lol.
Does this mean Reuters is an Islamic Supremist outfit?
YID With LID: Reuters Brings Fauxtography to the Gaza Flotilla
story broke by little green footballs, who also helped end Dan Rathers bogus career built on puff piece opinion journalism.
This isnt reuters first attempt to doctor the facts.....they have been busted NUMEROUS times.
Adnan Hajj photographs controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reuters is now an irrelevant news agency who chooses what they see fit to print.......busted by regular joes in their pajamas who do more research than the entire research dept. at Reuters. Shits to easy.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIlDuce1883
...and you resort to name calling. At least I have remained calm and in a respectful manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
SNIPPET There was a certain point where you went from funny, to laughable. I believe it was when you first opened your mouth, but would have to go back and double-check. :jointsmile:
Rusty you just proved his point. Attempting to discredit another persons argument in this way discredits your position. You would do better sticking to facts that you can back up. It seems some in this thread think if they shout loud and long enough that their point of view will prevail. Similarly, repeating a half truth or lie often enough does not make it fact.
I am not interested in name calling, shouting. Similarly, I am not interested in half truths. I'll give an example. Someone pointed out that Israel was established by the UN and that this solution was rejected by the Arab League. Yes this is true but it is only part of the truth. Given some context and you may see it differently. At the time that the UN moved to partition Palestine the Jewish populations was between 6% and 12% of the total population and legally owned less than 3% of the land base. Yet they were awarded 52% of the land base under the partition plan - and the most productive land at that. (See Arieh L. Avneri (1984). The Claim of Dispossession: Jewish Land Settlement and the Arabs, 1878??1948, p224.) If established according to the UN partition, the newly formed Jewish state would have had and overwhelming Arab majority. The Arabs protested that this was not fair. In this light it is not an unreasonable position. They called for a democratic solution based on national referendum, a proposal rejected by the Zionist supporters, also for obvious reasons. It is also important to recall that this decision by the UN was taken at a time when colonial conquest was still the dominant mindset.
In this thread I have read a lot of BS about "Jihadis". This is thinly veiled racism. This term attempts to lump together anyone who opposes the expansionist policies of the Israeli state into one group that can be reviled by all. It is unacceptable.
To the topic at hand. Who was responsible for the disaster on the flotilla? My guess is that the truth lays somewhere in the middle. I am always amazed at how Israelis find themselves amongst murderous crowds and somehow they all walk away. Perhaps a bit bloodied but they walk away while they leave a trail of dead in their wake. Amazing that no Israelis died on that boat, eh? I do know this. Israel has all the evidence they need. If they have nothing to hide then why don't they simply return all of the cameras and footage that exists? Failure to do so is damning.
Finally, if you have not experienced life under occupation then you don't know what you are talking about; you should refrain for trying to understand the mindset of those that live with the day to day humiliation, denial, and death that the occupation brings about.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Israels blockade is COMPLETELY LEGAL under international law.
Yes, Israel has the LEGAL right to stop ships in international waters
Yes, Israel has the right to use force when stopping a ship
and sorry, this wasn't "piracy" under ANY legal definition
and this backs up what Im saying...
International Humanitarian Law - San Remo Manual 1994
This was a kooky PR attempt by islamic conservative NUTS plain and simple.....the terrorist sympathizers and bigots aboard got EXACTLY what they asked for. PLEASE.......send more flotillas Hamas.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
now the word "Jihadi" is racist? Whats next Mr. Politically Correct Police Officer? Is calling someone a "yankee" now racist? Pathetic......blah,blah,blah. Control freaks....people can say whatever they want. Get over it or move to another forum.....cry babies GALORE on this site.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Islandborn clearly shows that some people should not smoke or use cannabis in any manner. :D
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
See if you can engage in a reasonable debate on the issues. Try to respond with some sense of mutual respect. I have not disrespected you. Please show me the same courtesy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
Israels blockade is COMPLETELY LEGAL under international law.
Again, just saying it does not make is so. Can you back it up? Would you please cite relevant international laws or protocols that justify your statement? Don't just parrot what Mark Regev an others say. Show us that you have done your home work - that you have done some critical thinking on this issue. If you are relying on the San Remo Agreement please point to those articles that you think apply. More importantly, tell us why the San Remo Agreement takes precedent over the 1982 Law of the Seas Treaty which governs maritime law in international waters beyond 12 miles of a sovereign coast?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
Yes, Israel has the LEGAL right to stop ships in international waters.
Again, any chance that you can justify this? Don't just give us a link provided by Mark Regev, et al. Show us that you know what you are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
And this backs up what I'm saying:
The San Remo agreement being used by Israel to justify its attacks on the flotilla is only part of international maritime law. But accepting this as the governing body of law for the moment, there is nothing in the San Remo agreement that allows a belligerent state to murder civilians in international waters. The San Remo agreement allows countries to stop ??merchant vessels? in international waters under the following conditions:
-- If the vessels ??are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.?
In this case, the blockade of Gaza is an illegal action. U.N. Security Council Resolution 1860 censured Israel for collectively punishing the people of Gaza. The resolution calls for ??the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including food, fuel, and medical treatment.? And before you start with the tired line about how the UN is biased against Israel, note that this was not a resolution of General Assembly but rather the five permanent members of the UN including the United States.
--If the vessels ??engage[s] in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy?
--If vessels are ??act[ing] as auxiliaries to the enemy??s armed forces?
--If vessels ??are incorporated into or assist the enemy??s intelligence system?
--If vessels ??sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft?
--Or if vessels ??otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy??s military action.?
Note that these ships were inspected at a number of ports en route to Gaza. They were supplying relief supplies for civilians targeted by the illegal blockade. Had there been anything of note on board those ships it would have been front page news the next day.
A more relevant international treaty in the case of this attack is the 1982 Law of the Sea Treaty. This agreement allows for the ??innocent passage? of ships in international waters if their behavior is not deemed ??prejudicial to the peace, good order or the security? of the respective coastal state.
The Israeli attack took place 80 miles offshore, far outside of Israel??s sovereignty (which extends no further than 12 miles from Israel??s coast), in a zone where the Law of the Sea Treaty is the only basis for enforcement. It is clear why Israel and her appeasers do not want this treaty to apply as this attack would constitute a clear violation of the law. Not much different from what is going on off the coast of Somalia.
Again, where is the footage seized from the dozens of journalists on board? Why don't we get to see that? Where is it? You and I both know why it is being suppressed. It shows the murder of 9 civilians including 5 executed with shots to the back of the head and back.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
now the word "Jihadi" is racist? Whats next Mr. Politically Correct Police Officer? Is calling someone a "yankee" now racist? Pathetic......blah,blah,blah. Control freaks....people can say whatever they want. Get over it or move to another forum.....cry babies GALORE on this site.
Again, no need for disrespect. Have I disrespected you? It seems to be part of a strategy - get all worked up, jump up and down, yell and shout. Anything except debate the issues right?
You use "Jihadi" in reference to anyone who defends Palestinian rights. With Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan, the use of this word is highly politicized and evokes a visceral and predictable reaction. I don't call all apologists for Israel Kach supporters, or even Zionist. Blanketing everyone with the same term in an effort to denigrate them or their beliefs smacks of racism. Please tell me where I am wrong. I would be happy to be proven wrong. I am not beyond recognizing my own shortcomings when facts are put before me.
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Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsby
Blanketing everyone with the same term in an effort to denigrate them or their beliefs smacks of racism.
in some circumstances it shows a bias of some sort, but i don't think you can describe it as racism. the one thing that all jihadists have in common is a devotion to some fundamentalist form of islam. they come in all colors and, though a majority are from the middle east, from all over the world, so i really don't think that racism is the proper term.
racism is, however, the proper term if your goal is to engender a distrust of someone using the term "jihadist". though it has been over-used, it still elicits a certain dismay among the majority of westerners. it's a great defense when all reason has failed, just cry racism and you're sure to win a few of the more weak-minded fence-sitters to your side.
