Anyone else horrified their tax dollars buy death?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrinKyle

"Kinda funny. This fucked-up, USA is at fault, twisted reasonoing you state here, is the same thing by extention. Some dickwads came over, and dropped some grenades (passenger airplanes) at our feet. Only difference, our kids hopped a flight, went to their country, and payed-back the favor. There has not been another grenade dropped on our shores, since. But guranteed, were I in New York that day, and the grenades had been dropped at my feet by these 'children' of allah...I'd have blown their young fucking heads off...just like you said you'd do to Steve."

I was talking about Steve talking about children in VIETNAM, dropping grenades at his feet.... and I said I would do the same thing... because HE(Steve) invaded my(Vietnamese) homeland, for reasons to combat communism(Fact), thus trying to force our western policies(Democracy) on countries half a globe away. Just cause Steve was in Vietnam, doesn't mean the war was Right, or just, or needed. This also doesn't make me "HATE Vets" cause I disagree with a war. The war in Vietnam was UN-WINNABLE... THUS we LOST it.. we lost lives, we lost money, and we lost respect.

---

Bummer the comparitave allegory escaped you.
Not to single you out, but since most progressives bash the values our fighters enlist and fight for, you get lumped into this category. They bash the honor and integrity of everything that we service members hold dear, as if it were the policies of the soldiers that get us in the position all countries eventually find themselves in...which is being forced to protect values, resources, allies and borders. If the threat of communism was so benign, then where did all those nukes come from on both sides? Political, social and corporate espoionage and sabotage was very prevalent, chunks of Europe were being 'absorbed' by the USSR, an arms race dominated the economies, and people were dying as a direct result.
Also, all the talk of Vietnam, but none for the geo-political enviornment leading-up to the war? No talk of the "Korean conflict"? Again...progressives miss half the story in a misinformed attempt to lay blame on the feet of that big, bad America. Taken in the context of the (then) recent world conflict with Hitler and Mussolini, the 1940 Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies (indonesia) after the oil embargo...a moral decision was made to assist the UN in stabilizing the region with the addition of troops. History can be so boring. But it sure helps one to know your history, if making moral judgements regarding the governments and soldiers involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrinKyle

Now to the Iraq war. Like I said earlier, how history repeats it self, just like I am. How we(USA) have NOT learned from history and its repeating itself in Iraq. The fact of the matter is... the MAJORITY of the country you live in, disagree with the Iraq war and want us to pull out. The current president got voted in(landslide), running on that ticket. Whether he does it or not, is up to the goonies in DC.

---

Comparing apples and oranges. Regardless of your 'feelings', Saddam Hussein calimed he had nukes...he told this to the world often. He refused to comply with twenty-something UN resolutions, skirted sanctions with the oil-4-food bullshit, and failed to comply with UN inspectors. Ultimatelly, he paid a heavy price that was dished-out by his own courts. Altruistic of us...? Possibly not as he had tried to assinate Bush 1. But, in our defense, he attacked his own people (and Iranians, too) with nerve gas, and he and his sons regularly killed and raped ordinary citizens for sport.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrinKyle

I also wonder why the last president was so popular, he did everything right, and left the white house in better condition then he entered. He must have done a great job the last 8 years to earn one of the highest approval ratings any president has had since record began.

---

Because he has people like you writing his epitaph before having the complete stroy...again. Generally takes scholars and historians a decade or two to acquire, analyze, disseminate and understand the true mechanics of an administration. Progressives, anarchists, socialists, facists and liberals all started 'disseminating' his administration prior to his taking the oath of office. Me...? I'm glad he kept my country safe, regardless of the fallout. (the constitution demands he protect our safety, and I agree with his motives) We presently have a foothold in the region, with some tentative allies on the road the democracy. The bank 'bailout' was/is/always will be bullshit, tho...and I detested the resulting manipulations by congress.

A mad dictator deleted, and a sound course for democracy in the region. What they eventually chose to do with these tennents of democracy...I guess time will tell, but Iraq is now stable enough to defend herself, infrastructure is still being rebuilt after decades of neglect and schools and hospitals are springing-up all over the country. Mission Accompolished, to quote a famous banner.

Now to Afghanistan, where our enlisted will yet again defend our allies, our values and our rights...with my full support and prayers for their safe, successful return. :jointsmile:

God I love America!

they were just saying on the news yesterday, that the 'first 30-day approval ratings' were in, and Bush is ahead of Obama, was something like 41% vs 36% :D ... evidently,the kool-aid drinkers can't read the news, (no surprise, there), but Obama is committing 30,000 MORE troops to Afghanistan, and plans to be there for a few years ... so far, he has reversed positions on almost everything promised during the campaign ... after filling his cabinet with old Clinton retreads (including the 4 that had to step down, found to be tax cheats) ... my question, for the liberal airheads, is: WHERE THE HELL IS ALL THAT 'CHANGE' YOU IDIOTS WERE CREAMING YOUR JEANS OVER ??? ... gullibility is one thing, but voting against the good of your country, thinking only to gain a lax marijuana policy, is treason, in my book ... Liberals, you disgraced yourselves, again ... :smokin:

You forgot TIR, that I never said I supported Obama, and just stated what he ran on, and how he won. I'm a conservative, so I laugh when you all throw the "liberal" word at me, thinking that is a viable argument. I feel kinda sad that is the only thing I've pretty much read from you and rusty again and again.

Again, blame anyone but America. We can never do harm, besides, In god We Trust.

And Rusty, I find it funny you lump disagreeing with a war, with downplaying support for troops. Must be that "patriotic" word, that if you disagree with the government actions you are automatically un-patriotic. Cause whatever the US government does is the RIGHT thing, every time no matter what.

Btw, I was raised from both sides of the spectrum, and only then can you truly see the hypocritical arguments on both. (Grew up between Texas and Oregon.)

Like i said to OGG, its a lost cause. Respond you may, I shall not. This is clearly not a "I've won, so I won't type anymore.", but a "It really doesn't matter, so why waste each our times doing it."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrinKyle

And Rusty, I find it funny you lump disagreeing with a war, with downplaying support for troops. Must be that "patriotic" word, that if you disagree with the government actions you are automatically un-patriotic. Cause whatever the US government does is the RIGHT thing, every time no matter what.

---

No. I disagree with those that slam one war citing half-truths and inuendo regarding another war, as a basis to blindly disagree with all governmental policies. If you are comfortable with the facts of an argument, you should defend those ideals. But likely you should be informed as to what the fuck you are talking about. As I stated, this wasn't aimed directly at you, but your statement was in line with so many others that wish to blindly follow that which they were taught in the liberal cesspools loosely refered to as centers for 'higher' learning, instead of finding out the whole story, the origins of the conflicts, and the timelines involved. (the World War 2, Korean conflict and Vietnam example.) This is called context.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrinKyle

Btw, I was raised from both sides of the spectrum, and only then can you truly see the hypocritical arguments on both. (Grew up between Texas and Oregon.)

---

Sorry...Not impressed. Sounds like you're leaning too far twords the Oregon side, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrinKyle

...This is clearly not a "I've won, so I won't type anymore.", but a "It really doesn't matter, so why waste each our times doing it."

---

Clearly? Gee. I was just getting started. Was looking forward to your comments on context, origins and the false blame layed at the feet of our government and the soldiers that fight in your name.
If it doesn't matter any more, then what happened between your last post and this one? It concerned you enough to specifically answer my statements made in response to your statements, yet you got real vague here. Whatever. Altho I would never to assume my points are valid and shared by all, I believe this country is worth fighting for, and will debate any that wish to get their facts straight and counter my opinions with valid reasoning and/or insight. Cut-n-paste propoganda punks need not apply. :jointsmile:

Funny how I keep getting called a fascist when fascism lies at the far RIGHT of the political spectrum, and its basic agenda is repression, which I do not advocate in ANY way.

GrinKyle, I think you're right...some people are just immune to reason, and the bombs will fly on as long as such attitudes pervade with an arrogant shake of the head against the stupid bleeding-hearts and their "fascist" agenda of peace.

Thanks D/P: I will sadly miss the avatar. I don't care what it is, when it moves, it gets my attention--like the 2 legged horse running. I can't rep u, says spread the luv! I did and have, still doesn't work! Spring around the corner, pretty busy, sunny here!

I/R couldn't agree with you more. The big question during election was: Will BHO represent change. As I responded, yep---just a change in the name of the resident of WH! Which is ringing true.

Clinton re-jects: Yep. Today the attn general of U.S. was on T.V. saying they put a stop to DEA mmj dispensary raids!!! Right, nothing in writing, facts or anything else. He was speaking and I did hear it--then the late news, it was a brief statement saying they are stopping. Put local L.A.P.D. said they will con't to enforce the law. Basically, if they break they rules, they will get raided. That is o.k. But the A.G. saying that makes me recall don't talk- don't tell! Meaning this can re-start any day. Especially if U.S. don't make enough money off of them.

Our Gov't was so wrapped up in the 'Cold War' that we weren't watching these terrorist camps and doing anything about it, before it came to 911! They got our attention in '92 with the WTC, no one was navigating. I say, put stoners in charge of the gov't. We need a green growers party to unit liberals and conservatives! lol !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

Funny how I keep getting called a fascist when fascism lies at the far RIGHT of the political spectrum, and its basic agenda is repression, which I do not advocate in ANY way.

---

Those on the extreme right have been improperly labeled fascists for dozens of years, but try Googling liberal fascism...there's a cause or two you'd be interested in, I'm sure.

However, since you cared to comment...what do you believe a fascist and fascism is? Fascism Usually confused with marxism, but there's really too little difference between the two, and would be parsing minor details.

Looking at Osama's cabinet picks, and those he calls advisors...if you really do not advocate fascism...you bought the wrong CHANGE package, as it's getting pretty fucking hinkey in DC lately. My guess is he's got us headed tword a Soviet style economic collapse, and pushing of our nation twords the apocalypse in preperation for the impending return of the 12th Imam. But that's just my personal view at the moment, subject to change if he ever does anything within the constitution. (versus illegally gathering the power to the "central authority")

If fascist is too strong a word...perhaps communist has a sweeter ring? Either way...the views are anti-American.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painretreat

Our Gov't was so wrapped up in the 'Cold War' that we weren't watching these terrorist camps and doing anything about it, before it came to 911! They got our attention in '92 with the WTC, no one was navigating. I say, put stoners in charge of the gov't. We need a green growers party to unit liberals and conservatives! lol !

---

What breed of stoners...?
Bummer those oh-so-insightful democrats keep cutting the intelligence budget and handcuffing their efforts. I do agree with the dropping the ball thing, tho. Wouldn't have happened with a fully-funded intelligence service, I'd imagine.

Rusty...I never said I like Obama or that I believed much of his "change" rhetoric (not that it really matters, since he and I belong to different countries); I simply believe him to be the lesser of the two evils who ran. And before blaming him for the "Soviet-style collapse", let's not forget that said collapse began under a Republican administration.

While liberal fascism may in fact be a very real phenomenon (believe me, the bullshit inherent in mainstream liberalism makes me sick at times, too), but it in no way reflects my beliefs. I'm all for obeying a constitution, the government mostly minding its own business (but economic interference is necessary to stop corporations from pillaging the world), etc. I don't believe in any of the repression you associate with liberalism...what, may I ask, is even remotely fascist about being anti-war and anti-prohibition? I would genuinely like for you to explain to me how my views are oppressive and fascist. Or maybe that's just a kneejerk reaction you have to all ideas contrary to neo-conservative interventionism?

P.S., what's with all the "support the troops" talk? I support them by advocating that they be brought back home in one piece, before it's too late. I certainly don't want more fine young men to die so they can have a lovely heroic time playing soldiers and get their five minutes of posthumous glory. "Protecting values"...what about the values of other cultures? They're no less relevent, despite the narcissistic Manifest Destiny thinking that's still frighteningly ubiquitous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

Rusty...I hope education standards become much more anti-government and anti-authoritarian, and fast...
...I try not to let my near-radical views get twisted by peer pressure, fanatical teachings of a failed education system, or a media bias.

---

Ahh...the Osmosis method of absorbing facts. You expect anyone to believe this crock?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

The propagandists have done their job well. Every sexually expressive young lady who gets branded a whore, every gay forced to live in shame, every Islamic civilian killed for the protection of Christian nations, every STD acquired due to abstinence-only sex education, every struggling family that has to pay their tithe, every frustrated person who can't act on the desire due to the underlying abhorration of pleasure that permeates our society....this whole Judeo-Christian ethic has gone on long enough. As an obsolete form of oppression, it has to go.

---

Yeah...perhaps I'm just against those that pretend in one sentence to be sooo altruistic and open-minded to all the fags and whores, and in the next be so blatantly hateful and disrespectful to those that attempt to better themselves, and their surroundings. You are about as backwards and as insulting...as any other liberal I've openly laughed at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

...Whose holy book tells them to kill all the homosexuals, and outlines rules on the proper management of slaves? The Bible's one of the more repugnant texts ever penned.

---

Obviously you havn't read the Torah, or the Koran, nor the Bible. Slaves, whether endentured, captured or bought, are covered in the holy scripture, yes. Lets keep this in context, because your generalizations are borderline bullshit. How many Chrisitan terrorists have attacked countries or governments, worldwide, in the last 10 years? Last 20 years? Last 50 years? Last two hundred years...?
If you are feeling you identify with the poor oppressed black man, perhaps you should read about the centuries of slave history in Africa, prior to the arrival of europeans. (for starters)
The Africans have been buying, selling and capturing enemies, and making them slaves...since the crusades timeframe, long before the Dutch, Americans and others stumbled across the cheap labor force. Since the black chiefs felt little enough about his fellow Africans, to sell them into slavery in another country, then where is the shared blame? Where is Farahkans outrage at the original African oppressors?
Do you really think the African chiefs were blind to the slavery they were accomodating and encouraging? Got to the point of running out of neighbors, and were beginning to sell their own tribesmen and women. Among other nations, America profited from this fact, but the Africans got some good jewelry in exchange for selling their soul.
To come along and say we are the original sinners in the slave trade is at best, a sack of lies, and missing half the story. (again)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

No, I haven't been drinking too much liberal/humanist KoolAid...perhaps you've been drinking too much nationalistic/security-obsessed/xenophobic/army-loving/nod-in-approval-as-civilians-slowly-bleed-to-death brandy.
The reality is that the media is much more hospitable to corporate agendas than it is to the radical dissidents. But I'm not here to discredit anybody's views on the grounds that it must be that damned media...I'll give you all the respect of assuming you form your ideas with your own mind, which is what I expect in return.

---

Are you ok...? Haven't hit your head or anything...?
Altered-reality counts as bullshit. You have posted nothing but a watered-down version of liberal Fascist teachings, attempting to show how open you are to the progressive-leaning pimps and queers. My flag doesn't wave that way, and I am damn proud of it.

IDK...You look pretty fucking liberal to me. But I think you're on the right track...at least you are watering your radical views a tad, and pretending to know the evils of progressive liberalism as an over-the-top knee-jerk reaction to the unknown.

overgrowthegovt..... why is it that a canadian is trying to stir the political pot with an outboard motor in the US, when you don't even live here.... That smacks of the same political thinking as the US trying to bring democracy to countries that are run by nomadic tribes. Maybe you should re-think your loyalties....are they to canada?? or the US??
FWIW, if your not happy with the current political systems that are in place, I believe that you only have 2 real choices.... either become a professional politician so you can make changes in policy(thats what Obama lead the sheeple to believe), or move.

Whats your choice??

Steve...I have no national loyalties; we're all just people.

Rusty...I did not claim anywhere that Christians/Europeans started slavery or were the only slave-masters. I'm well aware that slavery was used virtually everywhere a few hundred years ago, and that the African slave trade was begun by Africans. I was merely saying Christians certainly weren't opposed to it. None of that is the real focus of this argument, though.

Your comment about the "fags and whores" was a nice illustration of the point I've been trying to make about conservative intolerance...thank you. I do support the "fags and whores", and I'm very proud of it. If you think everyone should practice heterosexual serial monogamy, go ahead.

But, please, please, please, give me an answer on why you keep calling me a fucking FASCIST! As I've said, Fascism is all about oppression, and there is NOTHING oppressive about what I'm advocating: peace, individual freedom, etc. Never call me a fucking Fascist again unless you explain why, and none of this "spouting liberal Fascism" bullshit. I believe armed intervention is a key component of Fascism, not advocating peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

I was merely saying Christians certainly weren't opposed to it. None of that is the real focus of this argument, though.

---

It's all part of the discussion. You keep telling us one thing out of the side of your mouth, and then twist facts to suit your theory about how we are the big bad USA...ugly, nasty christians...racist conservatives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

Your comment about the "fags and whores" was a nice illustration of the point I've been trying to make about conservative intolerance...thank you. I do support the "fags and whores", and I'm very proud of it. If you think everyone should practice heterosexual serial monogamy, go ahead.

---

Do I hang-out with fags and whores...? No.

Do I agree that they (gay's) should be allowed to hijack the Christian institution of marriage...? No, but civil ceremonies are ok in my book.

Really...I'm not impressed with your distain for our judeo-christian values. Do I lose sleep over your inferences or direct assault on our country or religion, or political affiliation...? No, but I do pray for you. :jointsmile:

But you seem to have no problem with painting me and my fellow christian Americans as intolerant and racist. In fact, I think we've been pretty damn tolerant. Every other sentance out of our mouth does not contain vile remarks about your church, your country, your choices or your values. Unlike you liberal hacks that strive to paint anybody that doesn't think along the like you, as a rascist homophobic fascist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

But, please, please, please, give me an answer on why you keep calling me a fucking FASCIST! As I've said, Fascism is all about oppression, and there is NOTHING oppressive about what I'm advocating: peace, individual freedom, etc. Never call me a fucking Fascist again unless you explain why, and none of this "spouting liberal Fascism" bullshit. I believe armed intervention is a key component of Fascism, not advocating peace.

---

Yes...you are a liberal fascist in thought and action. Violence is not mandatory with fascism. Words often do enough damage.

[I]Fascism:
Fascism's approach to politics is both populist--in that it seeks to activate "the people" as a whole against perceived oppressors or enemies-- and elitist--in that it treats the people's will as embodied in a select group, or often one supreme leader, from whom authority proceeds downward. Fascism seeks to organize a cadre-led mass movement in a drive to seize state power. It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state. Both as a movement and a regime, fascism uses mass organizations as a system of integration and control, and often uses organized violence to suppress opposition, although the scale of violence varies widely.

Fascism is hostile to Marxism, liberalism, and conservatism, yet it borrows concepts and practices from all three. Fascism rejects the principles of class struggle and workers' internationalism as threats to national or racial unity, yet it often exploits real grievances against capitalists and landowners through ethnic scapegoating or radical-sounding conspiracy theories. Fascism rejects the liberal doctrines of individual autonomy and rights, political pluralism, and representative government, yet it advocates broad popular participation in politics and may use parliamentary channels in its drive to power. Its vision of a "new order" clashes with the conservative attachment to tradition-based institutions and hierarchies, yet fascism often romanticizes the past as inspiration for national rebirth.

You walk the liberal fascist walk.
You talk the liberal fascist talk.
You rant the liberal fascist rants.
Sorry to say...you fit the liberal fascist title.

Do I reject individual autonomy and rights? No, I believe nothing is more important. I believe in virtually nothing in that description, and don't forget that "liberal fascism" was only coined in one book by Jonah Goldberg, a nationalistic reactionary convinced the liberals were responsible for all that was wrong with America, and that it's not taken seriously as a genuine ideology...just a conservative conspiracy, nothing more.

You say I don't tolerate your values, and that I try to paint you as a fascist? Let's cut the irony with a knife, especially with the second part of that sentence. I never said you're racist--I'm sure you're not. My quarrel is not with you as a person, but with certain ideas that perpetuate war.

All you did was provide a definition of fascism and then say I fit the bill, as if it's self-evident. All I am advocating is peace, and you have yet to explain to me what is fascistic about recommending we put away the bombs. I know we've gotten WIDELY side-tracked in this thread, but let's bring it back right here to what it's really about, the morality of war. "Violence isn't necessary for fascism--words often do enough damage." WHAT DAMAGE?

I think you equate me with an oppressive kind of liberalism where speech and thought is severely restricted by political correctness. I'm not politically correct and I don't seek to silence or oppress anybody. So again, WHAT DAMAGE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

and don't forget that "liberal fascism" was only coined in one book by Jonah Goldberg, a nationalistic reactionary convinced the liberals were responsible for all that was wrong with America, and that it's not taken seriously as a genuine ideology...just a conservative conspiracy, nothing more.

---

To you it's a conservative conspiracy. To the rest of us...it's an obvious title, but regardless...you disregard the content and the ideology of a book you've never read, simply by reading the reviews? At least you got your info from a reliable sourse, lol.

Well lets see...Clinton (before Bush II took office) saw the same reports, heard the same arguments, Obama's uncle Saddam kept reminding everyone in the world that he had nukes, and was giving the UN the middle finger as they tried to quell the situation with sanctions and embargo's. This all happened before George W Bush was elected to office, or is that just one of those forgettable little facts you keep trying to defend your "insight" with?

A little Iraq-attack timeline: Anyone recognize the players involved and cited...? Seems to me this is a liberal administration actually on the road to making some sense...yet when Bush II inherited the fiasco, Bush has gotten the blame. Childish, inaccurate and revisionist.

(After the election, but just before Clinton was taking office)
January 13, 1993: As Bill Clinton is about to take office, he states: "I am a Baptist. I believe in death-bed conversions. If he [Hussein] (Saddam...not Barack) wants a different relationship with the United States and the United Nations, all he has to do is change his behavior." (The New York Times, January 14, 1993)

January 14, 1993: In the face of criticism, particularly from The New York Times, that he might lift sanctions and even normalize relations with Iraq, Clinton backtracks: "There is no difference between my policy and the policy of the present Administration.... I have no intention of normalizing relations with him." (See The New York Times and Boston Globe, January 15, 1993) Incoming Secretary of State Warren Christopher: "I find it hard to share the Baptist belief in redemption.... I see no substantial change in the position and continuing total support for what the [Bush] administration has done."

January 12, 1995: While inspections are taking place, though not complete, Ambassador Madeleine Albright says the U.S. is "determined to oppose any modification of the sanctions regime until Iraq has moved to comply with all its outstanding obligations." She specifically cites the return of Kuwaiti weaponry and non-military equipment. (Reuters, January 12, 1995)
(After Clinton takes office)

May 12, 1996: On "60 Minutes," Lesley Stahl asks Albright: "We have heard that a half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. Is the price worth it?" Albright responds: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price-we think the price is worth it."

Late 1996: The United Nations begins "oil-for-food" program.

March 26, 1997: Albright, in her first major foreign policy address as Secretary of State: "We do not agree with the nations who argue that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted. Our view, which is unshakable, is that Iraq must prove its peaceful intentions. It can only do that by complying with all of the Security Council resolutions to which it is subjected. Is it possible to conceive of such a government under Saddam Hussein? When I was a professor, I taught that you have to consider all possibilities. As Secretary of State, I have to deal in the realm of reality and probability. And the evidence is overwhelming that Saddam Hussein's intentions will never be peaceful."

November 14, 1997: President Clinton. [During a standoff on weapons inspectors] "What he [Hussein] says his objective is, is to relieve the people of Iraq, and presumably the government, of the burden of the sanctions. What he has just done is to ensure that the sanctions will be there until the end of time or as long as he lasts. So I think that if his objective is to try to get back into the business of manufacturing vast stores of weapons of mass destruction and then try to either use them or sell them, then at some point the United States, and more than the United States, would be more than happy to try to stop that."

November 30, 1997: Ambassador Bill Richardson in the Washington Post: "To the extent Saddam used the inspectors' two-week absence to hide weapons, he has only delayed for Iraq the time it will take the UNSCOM team to ensure compliance, therefore further delaying any possibility of lifting sanctions."


If you'd like...there's more. But I'm fascinated by the left-wing hacks trying to blame everything on the conservatives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

You say I don't tolerate your values, and that I try to paint you as a fascist? Let's cut the irony with a knife, especially with the second part of that sentence. I never said you're racist--I'm sure you're not. My quarrel is not with you as a person, but with certain ideas that perpetuate war.

---

You slam my religion, my country, my patriotism and my values, and we have never met. Where were your concerns in the 1990's when the Clinton administration was going thru the above-cited timeframe...or was it ok back then because a liberal was in charge? Whatever...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

All you did was provide a definition of fascism and then say I fit the bill, as if it's self-evident.

---

No...all I did was to post the definition of fascism, as some in here are unaware of the ideology, it's goals and it's occational violent nature. You say you abhore violence, and continue to spout psychobabble in an attempt to sway others to your views of the necessity for radical, godless social reforms, regardless of the facts behind your anger. I say again...the education system has failed you tremendously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

All I am advocating is peace, and you have yet to explain to me what is fascistic about recommending we put away the bombs. I know we've gotten WIDELY side-tracked in this thread,

---

No... And this is the problem I have with your ideology. Because you refuse to put into context the story behind your fooliish words, the facts behind the decisions to go to war escape you, so you must be right, 'eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

I think you equate me with an oppressive kind of liberalism where speech and thought is severely restricted by political correctness. I'm not politically correct and I don't seek to silence or oppress anybody.

---

Same here. But my goal is to get you folks that twist and rewrite history at your leisure to understand...I am not sure I've ever been politically correct, but I will call bullshit when I see it, and defend my religion, my country and my philosophy against all invaders.

When something is worth fighting for, I do not roll-over and play dead. I expect my country to do the same. And since I believe every country has the same right to defend itself, as we have to defend our homes and families, it is often a necessary evil.

I think something needs to be cleared up. You seem to think that because I abhor the Republicans, I like the Democrats or think Clinton was a good president. On the contrary, I despise the Democratic Party (they're much too conservative), and believe Clinton to be a joke. Both parties persecute drugs, cater to corporations, maintain a bullying foreign policy, and are dominated by Christians. To paraphrase Gore Vidal, the only real difference between the parties is that the Democrats are cuter and prettier and more willing to make small compromises when the poor or the black or the anti-imperialists get out of line, and the Republicans are a bit stupider and more aggressive. So, there's no need to bash the Clinton administration...you're preaching to the choir. I'm not laying sole blame on the Republicans for the current nightmare, but on the American political system as a whole, which only allows for aristocrats or populists who

I'm just saying, you're dismissing my ideas on the grounds that they are not my own, that I am a mindless victim of liberal fascism and its prevalence in the failed education system. My ideas come from inconsistencies I notice in day-to-day life, books I have read independently of the school system (which never gave us anything really radical to read), and a mishmash of places. I don't know what education systems you're talking about (based on your age, you've never been educated in one), but where I come from the schools indoctrinate in the way of honouring the troops, respecting authority, being sexually modest, etc. I'm going to show you the respect of assuming that your views are your own and not those of your educators or the media. I expect the same in return. I know it's very popular nowadays to discredit any idea deemed liberal by blaming that damn liberal media or that damn liberally fascist school system, but it cuts no ice with me. We're two intelligent human beings discussing our opinions, and we shouldn't need to do that.

I don't keep trying to tell you your ideas aren't your own, that they come from FOX News or the pro-military propagandists.

I slam all patriotism because it is a harmful disease that breeds pride, arrogance and wars, in that order. To protect their values and way of life, people all over the world are willing to kill.

I refuse to put into context the story behind my foolish words? How's this...all the wars in the Middle East are about economic ulterior motives, protecting the tyrannical Israel, and keeping the Western values boot firmly on the face of other peoples who may resent the arrogance. Decades of oppressive, blood-sucking foreign policy got its retaliation with 9/11, which became the excuse for the horrendous war crimes that followed. The U.S. government is the most tyrannical and dangerous entity on this planet (they're mildly democratic towards their own people, but impose their imperialism on the rest of the world), and they are supported by patriots incapable of seeing through the bullshit (though they claim to see through the "liberal indoctrination" that somehow still results in wars, prohibition, economic and cultural imperialism, corporatism, and undying allegiance to Israel. I've yet to figure that one out--the "liberal indoctrination" doesn't seem to be working very well).

overgrowthegovt.... my daughters used to think like you do when they were in college.... that is until they entered the work place and had to actually earn a living and pay taxes like everybody else. Seems they have changed their minds, and are a little more tolerant. Maybe one day you too will see the light.

Have a nice life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

I'm just saying, you're dismissing my ideas on the grounds that they are not my own, that I am a mindless victim of liberal fascism and its prevalence in the failed education system.

---

Yup. That about sum's it up.
Your intolerance is unacceptable, and your insults are obviously mindless garbage that you've been digesting your entire (short-lived) life. Bummer so much of your intellect was wasted listening to those that teach you that I owe you a house, a car, a job, decriminalized drugs. That for you to question authority is a way to remind oppressors of your demands, and we will relent...opening our arms to you in blissful unity. Somewhere you have got it in your head that whining is a viable alternative to hard work and using ones brain for something other than a propoganda poster.

I work for what little I have, and I think your uninspired rantings of social injustice are a simple way for you to avoid the obvious, which is that you can't deal with life on life's terms, coupled with the realization that you are not as special as you've been brought-up to believe. Nothing will be handed to you on a silver platter. People won't be drawn to you just because of your overbearing half-informed method of screaming out injustices. Usually they will point and laugh, while keeping a suspicious eye on this commie-freak.

I owe you nothing, but you owe yourself the truth...which is either learn before you speak, or deal with the people like me challenging your every percieved insight with regards to this flawed concept of socialism, which you keep vomiting all over this forum. If your plan is to go through life with this burdensome chip on your shoulder...it will be you to blame. After all...it's you not respecting the artwork on the other side of the coin...and for all the wrong reasons.

Besides...I'm not going to let some commie shit all over my religion, my country, and my social ideology, without poking fun at their foolishness.

And also...I didn't even know that there were conscientious objectors in the anarchist movement. (nice cookbook, too)

I still wish there was an extra box on my tax returns, where I could donate an extra $10.00 to further defense department technologies, though.
Tag...you're it, lol.

Alright, your turn....

You, sir, make far too many assumptions about me. I'm aware that nobody owes me anything and I'm certainly no "commie", as you brand all left-leaning people. Nobody ever told me I was special, since I was raised by cold parents, but I'm aware of my creative and intellectual gifts, yes. Oh, I do think I'm owed decriminalized drugs, yes, since it's not for any paternalistic despots to tell me what I can do with my consciousness.

You don't strike me as being quite so much of a moron as your average traditionalist (you're capable of coherent speech, at any rate, which is rare), so it's quite sad that you've fallen victim to the reactionary, "liberal-media-hating", warmongering mindset. Such people grow up in say-grace families, become convinced that their country has the right to bloodily defend its idiotic values, that marriage is for sexual conformists, that any opposition to corporate pillaging is just commie talk, etc. They're incapable of any free thought, simply taking an aggressive stance for the ideas they were raised on. One nation under God, my country right or wrong, let's fight for our "freedom"...never moves past what was hammered into them from the cradle. But of course, in their mind their obsolete views are self-evident and that damn media is to blame for any dissidents...forget that the media is most hospitable to mainstream values and rarely endorses anything radical or anarchistic. It's that damn media.

Bottom line: my ideas allow for peace, equality and freedom from cultural indoctrination. Yours allow for war, corporate slavery and adherence to the same outdated teachings learned from Pa. Why do you think so many artists are dissidents? Could it be they have the ability to go beyond what they were brought up on? Hmmm. Few men of vision tend to think much of the status quo. The simple people...well, that's another matter. For them anyone who thinks outside the box will always be a freak and a threat.

Steve...don't think I'll ever crawl in bed with the status quo. Sorry. Too many epiphanies too early in life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

You don't strike me as being quite so much of a moron as your average traditionalist (you're capable of coherent speech, at any rate, which is rare)

---

At least you are working on your spelling and grammar. Is punctuation next on the list? Sorry, that's the best I can offer under these circumstances, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

You, sir, make far too many assumptions about me.
Bottom line: my ideas allow for peace, equality and freedom from cultural indoctrination. Yours allow for war, corporate slavery and adherence to the same outdated teachings learned from Pa.

---

This sums up our differences, and my opinions about you, in a nutshell.
You feel it's ok to bash me and my ideology, but you become offended when I take your own words and writings, and use them in kind against you.

I stand-by my summation of your schooling and half-thoughts. Reason being...I'm not the victim of an underbudget school raising shitloads of little anarchists raging against the machine of industrial capitalism. Don't like to work for the corporate 'slave drivers', then start your own business. Or is it work in general you abhore? Try taking your ideology all the way to it's natural conclusion, (can go one of two or three ways, ultimately) and see if you can find the 'reactionary' responses of your anti-violent (bullshit) social reforms. Anti-violent anarchism. Yeah, right. Yet another angry cult attempting to change their tactics to become relevant. Y'all still wearing black? (like your Pa did years ago?)

And your decision for the rest of us, that we are lesser people for feeling differently about morals and values...or that we should be angry about the lost freedoms and liberties. What lost personal freedoms and liberties? They are already ours, despite your insistance that the government is oppressing us. Look in the mirror. That is the person oppressing you. Don't like the laws...? Work to change them The mechanisms are there, in place. Learn to work within the rules, and you can move mountains. Rage against the machine...you'll get run-over without a second thought, nor a tear.

Humans, since the beginning of time, have been a warring people. An invasive virus in the firmament of life. According to one of the first laws of nature, if you are not ready and able to defend yourself, your family, your values and morals...you won't be among the survivors. There's no such thing as a eutopian society, and to chase it at the expense of reality, is dangerous folly.

Rusty, your wasting your breath(typing?). The child still hasn't matured or had enough of lifes experiences to have learnedthe rules, and how to use the rules to his advantage.
Seems that in the 60s and the 70s there were an awful lot of folks that thought like him in the Peoples Republic of Berkeley. The scary part is that these same folks are the ones that are teaching these ideals to our children and grand children, instead of teaching them common sense and how to think for themselves..

Peace

True, but without somebody presenting the conservative side of the equation, misinformation is the only commodity offered to the masses.

I know this is a breach of privacy but I dont care,
I got a negative feed back from OVERGROWTHEGOVERNMENT with the following.

"A veteran is just a retired murderer (WWII excepted) and I'll talk to them however they please if they strike me as arrogant and condescending, as was the case here. I exercised restraint, believe me. Feel free to worship at the veteran shrine."

He responded this way becasue I said he was disrespectfull when I left him a negative feed back.

All I got to say is "I rest my case"

one more thing we are all murderers, just because you never saw someones life leave theri body does not meen you didnt pull that trigger, or vote that guy in their, becasue you pull out your inocent card all the time is fact alone you are at fault as well as the rest of us. One man can also go to war with himself, even if it is to dilude his or her self. You are part of this world even if you hide from it you can not run from the truth. and those who accept their fate and move on to to their job, and try to make a differance those are the ones you need to listen to and give respect to, more than 99% of Veterans deserve your respect, because the proved their value by serving, this value is far more valuable than any other human value because it invloves all values that are good and not evil.
It involes, all aspects from compasion, restraint, honor, service, just to name a few, people who talk shit to people that deserve respect from everyone, are either Ignorant, or part of the problem. Either way it is a problem

And I worship nuthing, no kings, no gods, no men, no women, but I respect all to worship what they will, that is their choice not mine, to me worship is an evil word, and the way Over grow used it makes me think my point is proven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadSativa

I know this is a breach of privacy but I dont care,
I got a negative feed back from OVERGROWTHEGOVERNMENT with the following.

"A veteran is just a retired murderer (WWII excepted) and

---

Apparently, the only war that OVERGROWTHEGOVERNMENT feels was justified, and not just "murder", was our participation in WWII.

Do you, OVERGROWTHEGOVERNMENT, feel that the Patriots who fought England in the American Revolution were "murderers"?

Do you think that the Nazis were worse than Al Quaeda? They are different but radical Islamism, as practiced by Al Quaeda and similar groups is just as bad, if not worse, than Nazism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Breukelen advocaat

Instead of attacking Kabul, and other cities, we should have pattern-bombed, or nuked, the mountainous regions where Al-Quada operatives and leaders were holed up.

---

Hey Bruekelen :jointsmile:

I'm super positively sure you are a nice guy :D your on cannacom, but I do have to say I'm rather glad you're not actively running for defence secretary.

:)

Peace,
denial

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadSativa

He responded this way becasue I said he was disrespectfull when I left him a negative feed back.

---

Gee...did he spell something wrong...? If/when you leave a negative rep, one should damn well be ready to recieve the same in return. But whining like a scorned bitch or a defenseless child...is likely anti-productive. Politics is a bloodsport. Toughen-up. :thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadSativa

And I worship nuthing, no kings, no gods, no men, no women, but I respect all to worship what they will, that is their choice not mine, to me worship is an evil word, and the way Over grow used it makes me think my point is proven.

---

You respect those that chose to have faith, but you don't respect faith, and you think don't have a choice...? Perhaps you should explore that which you obviously know nothing about, before writing a single word about it. Makes one look foolish talkin' out of one's ass.

Churches nationwide help those with questions, find answers. They don't bite, they don't kidnap, they don't torture, you won't get infected, there's no dues or fees...but you might learn something positive in return, that can last the rest of your life.
And yes, some Christians smoke pot, too.
Christians For Cannabis Forums

^^??? to many questions to answer, but as far as faith goes, its just another word to me, I dont force my way of life on anyone, nor do I care what anyone worships or belives. The devil, alah, budah, Gilgamesh, the horned cow, Bush all the same to me. leaders of more propaganda. And bitching is something eles entirely, what I am doing is stepping up, because some one to defend his self is natural, someone to defend someone else is just and right. I dont give disrespect to any Vet, forgin or domestic. I just got alota love and respect for the domestic Vets. Im not sore about the feed back, but what he said is kinda, obviously .........well you know

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadSativa

I dont give disrespect to any Vet, forgin or domestic. I just got alota love and respect for the domestic Vets.

---

Am I the only one that sees the hypocrisy in this? Really...if you haven't thought-out your views, is this the time or place to be showing your confusion...?

Some viewpoints really turn my stomach. :wtf:

Rusty...my punctuation's impeccable, so what was with the gibe? That's all I have to say here, since it's apparent that we think very little of one another, neither of us is ever going to change our mind, and that we both think the other to be simply a brain-washed fool. Every single view you've expressed I believe to be pure bullshit, and vice versa, so very little ground is going to be gained either way.

Mississippi Steve...if believing that young people don't embrace your values because they haven't grown up yet helps you sleep at night, be my guest. We all have a tendency (myself included, I'll be the first to admit) to hold the view that people with different worldviews simply haven't evolved as much as we have.

Anyway, nice debating you both...I feel I did fairly well, considering I was outnumbered two to one in the last gasp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

Rusty...my punctuation's impeccable, so what was with the gibe?

---

Well...I could list my reasons alphabetically or in order of importance, your choice. Here's a sample tho...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

You don't strike me as being quite so much of a moron as your average traditionalist (you're capable of coherent speech, at any rate, which is rare)

---

Insulting a class of people because that are different than you is called what...? Just returning that which was freely given to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

Anyway, nice debating you both...I feel I did fairly well, considering I was outnumbered two to one in the last gasp.

---

Likewise. I know the feeling of being outnumbered very well. In forums like this, it's sometimes hard to even find another conservative, let alone getting one to join-in. I'm sure we'll be talkin' again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

...don't think I'll ever crawl in bed with the status quo. Sorry. Too many epiphanies too early in life.

---

Epiphanies to one, is a flashback to another, lol.

Rusty, I admit that that comment was insulting (neither of us have been as polite as we should be), but what does that have to do with punctuation? There were no commas or periods missing that I could notice.

Anyway, just wanted to say I'm sure you're a nice guy (who just got a little heated, like I did) and that our opposing ideologies needn't create any bad blood. I'm sure if we ever met we'd smoke a bowl and laugh about this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

Rusty, I admit that that comment was insulting (neither of us have been as polite as we should be), but what does that have to do with punctuation? There were no commas or periods missing that I could notice.

---

Twas jokingly (to me) returning insults being tossed-around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

I'm sure if we ever met we'd smoke a bowl and laugh about this.

---

...At the local gay bar, no doubt? <kidding>

Hahaa I'm straight, Rusty, but if you're looking I might know some folks (also kidding).

Been thinking about it...I guess I could make an exception for a Carol Channing karaoke night. :jointsmile:

I'll toke to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

...At the local gay bar, no doubt? <kidding>

---

LMAO
clever.

I like that you two were able to resolve this nicely. Yay for maturity.:thumbsup: