Other: There was no beginning.
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Other: There was no beginning.
Life is a gamble. We're always placing our bets. Very little is certain in this world. We live and breathe probabilities. We are constantly making rational calculations as to what we need to do, and how we should structure our lives, in order to secure the goals that we value. We are always wagering our time and energy on one strategy or another in pursuit of our own hopes and dreams. To be alive at all involves some risk.
Life is process. We are always pursuiing goals and placing our bets on what will work and what's not worth our trouble. We are engaged in that process every day. But, we are also typically engaged in avoidance behavioir concerning some of the things that really matter most. We sleepwalk through life. I believe that the deepest reality is spirituality. We can live on a physical level, and even on an intellectual level, and miss it completely. They physical is the level of the body, the intellectual is the level of the mind. But the spiritual is the level of the heart, that core capacity we all have where thought and feeling and will all come together.
If you bet on athiesm and win, then what do you win? Not much. Perhaps any sense pleasures that you indulged yoursefl in within the confines of this life that you would have avoided for moral reasons if you had been making the contrary bet. But, in the end, you wouldn't know that you won. So you won't even have the pleasure of knowing you were right.
Everyone has self interest and that's in no way an immoral or unworthy attitude.
i'm actually a government experiment. i was grown in a jar of organic matter, and as such, i have neither a belly button, nor nipples.
What he said ^Quote:
Originally Posted by junther22
I really don't understand how people can believe in God. It's a delusion. Seriously, how can anyone believe such a thing, when absolutely no concrete evidence exists for it?
I think there are more people that believe in a creator then who don't. Athiesm is an urban phenomenon.
I equate the spiritual with the emotional. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine, but we live for each other. Extended isolation is considered the cruelest of punishments. When we send people to jail for murder, you'd think that the best thing would be to keep bad people away from each other, but no, that's too cruel. People get lonely when they have no other murderers and rapists to talk to. We live for each other's company.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Did you even read my last post?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
So being right and having the "winning" bet might be two different things. Who says there isn't a "heaven" that accepts moral atheists and the like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
I take deep issue with this. Not listneing to the bible is NOT equal to no morals. I'm not going to do something I consider immoral because I'm an atheist. I might do something that the Bible considers immoral, because the Bible isn't the be all and end all to morality. There is nothing immoral about premarital sex. The only argument against it is "the bible said so". That's not a very good argument in my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
And again, there are more than two bets. Did you retain any information about my last post at all? How can you make a good bet when you only see two of the near-infinite amount of choices? Not that my bet's any better, but I can tell you that I see many more than just two choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
1/6th of the world is either atheist or agnostic. Yes, the believers outweigh the non-believers. That doesn't make either faction any more or less right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
There are only 2 choices, either there is a divine creator, or there isn't. The wager appeals to as many people as possible, the more rational person places his bet on God, realising that serving the Lord serves the self interest, which everyone shares, because there is promise of the afterlife. More people believing means more people believe, it doesn't make them right or wrong because we know God can't be definitively proven or disproven. You don't bet on God out of fear but out of love and faith and rationality when you comprehend what athiesm offers you holisticly. Athiests can be as moral as christians. The bible isn't the be all, end all. It's a lot of things. It gives wisdom and advice about moraility. Every choice we make, we make alone, God does not make it for us nor does another man. We are condemned to freedom and therefore responsible for our actions. I don't think pre marital sex is wrong, i don't have to believe that to think i and the universe was created.
Again, that's assuming that God wants or requires your worship. What if God despised your worship? It's not such a definite "yes or no" gamble, as you're trying to state. Believing that there is a God, is completely different than saying that you believe God has an afterlife for people who worship It.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
If there is a God, that doesn't automatically mean that you get to heaven, even assuming that you've met what you perceive as the requirements. What you perceive as requirements may in reality be quite different to what the actual requirements are, again assuming It's set up such an afterlife in the first place.
Just to be clear, I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic. I'm claiming ignorance. I'm not betting at all, I refused to play the game in the first place. Now that in itself may be a bet at the wheel, but it's got the exact same odds as the bet that you're making.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Who knows, maybe you get to place your bet after the wheel has been spun (after death, in case that wasn't clear), so to speak. So "rationally", as you like to put it, I may actually have the best chance of receiving a good afterlife.
If you believe the world was created, so be it. I've wouldn't want to argue that viewpoint. It's when you go beyond that single viewpoint that I call things into question. I hope you can see in this post that I'm arguing the philosophies you present that you believe this creator would posses, and saying that you have the rational conclusion, when it seems you haven't thought things out nearly enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
I go beyond that single viewpoint because there are many views from different people about the origins of God, so i made some available in this thread. Are they infallible? No. Do they make you think? Yes. And this my friend is all we can do and all we can know, that we are thinking, all the time. How we recieved this power is up to ponder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
It's fine to make people think, but claiming that the "rational" conclusion was to believe in God is ignorant at best. That's what I took issue with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
How does a rational gamber place his bets? Not always on the contender most likely to win, suprisingly enough. Not always on the option with the highest purse. A rational gamber seeks to maximise his/her gains over the long run and tends to place his bets in accordance with what is known now as expected value and is determined by the formula:
Bet: (chance X payoff) - cost = expected value.
Rational wagering is not always in accordance with chance only, or with payoff only, or even with cost only. It is a function of all three.
Eternal life may be a gift, but it can only be given to someone capable of recieving it. The wager is meant to break any tie in evidential considerations between athiesm and theism.
As a buddhist, I believe that I am a creation of my own mind. Therefore I created myself and the world around me. Ask me my views and I will say, "There is no God, and I am Him."
Basically, I am Buddha.
I'd like to pose a question.
You refer to the choice between atheism and belief as a wager, where on one side one has everything to gain, and on the other one has everything to lose.
But isn't the act of believing in God solely for one's own purposes (IE: the benefit of one's purportedly immortal soul), rather selfish? It doesn't matter whether it's the fear of hell or the desire for heaven that leads you to your belief. If you look at it as a bet, a wager, you're always looking at what is to be gained and lost for you.
And what if someone uses rational thinking to compare atheism and belief, and decides... "Well, maybe it's so. Maybe if I believe in a higher power, I will have more to gain than if I didn't." Then what? They might try to believe, though perhaps other rational thoughts may contradict this new line of thinking. But the very act of trying, all other goals regarding gain and loss aside, implies insincerity. If you try to love someone, do you really love them? If you try to believe, do you really believe? And even when you believe, there is always doubt, because belief is not the same thing as knowledge.
Can you choose to love God? Is it really that easy? Remember, the very act of trying implies failure. Likewise, should morals be a means to an end? Or should they flow naturally, incidental to your love for God?
I take it you play poker?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
And regardless, in order to make a rational decision on betting, you have to know the odds. Do you claim to know them?
It seems that you're willing to dedicate your life to God (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). So we know what you're willing to give up (the wager or cost) but that might not be all that you are wagering, you may unknowingly be wagering your afterlife. Your bet may unknowingly cost your soul. We don't know the odds of the bet, and we don't even know the payout.
There is no "rational" edge in a bet with unknown odds, an infinite amount of payouts which may include negative 'prizes', and you aren't even sure of what you're wagering. You're taking a stab in the dark, as am I. Neither of our bets have an advantage because neither of us even knows the game we're playing, assuming there is one.
And I've already shown you that an atheist is capable of receiving eternal life, if such a creator deemed it the qualification of eternal life. You haven't argued my previous point, but it seems like you keep stating that betting on theism is the probable winning bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Mankind creates morality as a painter creates a painting, through our choices in every day life, we decide what is good or bad. Morals should flow from the highest region. We should treat people as means, not means to an end.Quote:
Originally Posted by afghooey
The odds would be 50/50, i do not take stabs in the dark yet footstep after footstep into the light.
Check it out if you want: Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I checked it out, actually, and the Criticism section explains my viewpoint rather well, specifically the section that deals with the assumption that god rewards belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
The Atheist's wager pretty much sums up my belief as well.
They've done a good job of brainwashing the majority of the world then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Who is THEY? How were they created? ;)
People make their own choices about God, no one is brainwashed, expcept perhaps at an early age, as i was. However, having those beliefs forced on me at a young age, made me instantly reject God. Now i am mature enough to make my own mind up, i CHOOSE to believe in God, and i am much happier.
For every criticism, there is a rebuttle.
Then please, rebut my criticisms :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
I don't have the answers for everything, other more knowledgable scholors may be better advised to suit your needs. I have tried to express my opinions and reply to that which i can. I've stated pretty much all the information i have at my immediate knowledge about what i know about God and why i think my beliefs are justified. This is all i can do, for this thread shall not be able to answer whether there is or is not a God. Every individual must make his or her own mind up, regardless of what other people tell you.
So if this is the case, that you don't have immediate answers to the criticisms of views, do you relinquish the train of thought that the more "rational" view is to believe in God? For someone who doesn't have immediate answers to defend their own thoughts and beliefs, you sure know a lot about rationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
The philosophy i've posted all throughout this thread is comprehensive and rational, imo. I believe i am rational in holding my beliefs based on these theories as you probably believe you are rational for holding your own beliefs. There are two fundamental theories of knowledge: Rationalism and Empiricism. I can justify my belief in God with both.
that's fine in stating that you believe it's rational, but to say specifically that "a rational person does ...." would stand to reason that an irrational person does the opposite.
To state that the "more rational" person gambles on God, would imply that a less rational person gambles against God. I gamble against God, and criticize your reasoning. You cannot claim to be "more rational" if you can't defend your reasons against a less rational person... ie: me.
I'm asking if you're relinquishing the idea that your views are "more rational" than another's, I'm not asking if you're relinquishing the views themselves.
You're taking me out of context. Those statements came from a lot of steps before the conclusions. The reason it says the more rational person should believe in God follows from the premises before that statement. It's philosophy, there's no room for flip flopping, the theories attempt to their best ability to put forward why someone can justify believing in God. It does not say 'there is a God' It says based on the premises, it is rational to hold these views that there is a God.
Personally, i don't think i'm more rational then anyone for believing in God. Some people don't associate rationality with faith and some do.
I do believe everything has an explanation. Including the universe and why humanity is here on Earth. Perhaps the answer is the most simplest, yet the most complex.
What makes the Christian God so much more valid than any other god? Why is it he that is real? I'd like to know why, other than "because the Bible says so." And if that is your response, I'd like to know why the Bible is more credible than any other book like it. Really, there is no reason to believe in the Christian God rather than any other god, except that it all comes down to personal preference. So considering that, Christians have no argument for why they should believe the Christian God is the right and real one, rather than Allah, or the Sun god, or some other Pagan gods. What about Zeus? Most Christians deny the existence of Zeus and many other gods within greek mythology. But why can't they be right, and your Christian God be wrong?
I believe in Jesus Christ, i follow his philosophies to the best of my ability. I don't believe the issue should be which religion but that there's a divine creator, that's what i think. I believe Jesus Christ was reincarned as Ras Tafari, son of the Queen of Sheeba and the King of Soloman, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, His Imperial Majesty, was crowned Haile Selassie I. I am a follower of the head creator.
M Theory
Personally, if I had known this was going to be such a heady and wordy thread, I may have passed it by. When I stated that I was planted by aliens, it was how I felt at that moment. Personally I could care less if it is creation or evolution. I happen to know that this planet supports me and all my needs. Even synthetics come from Momma Earth. I no longer beleive in the other patriarchal gods, because of all the violence done in their names. Be it Allah, Jehovah, or Jesus...the followers have really not been nice to Momma or her inhabitants. I believe spiritual matters are private and Momma doesn't need me to prostelitize. Oh, and by the way I and most of Iceland believes in fairies. But I apoligize for invading this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
It's not out of context. You're saying the more rational person believes yadda yadda because of these steps, but when those steps were under scrutiny, and the argument about those steps and the conclusion brought us here, with yourself not having the answers to the arguments and criticisms, then it obviously can't be more rational if you can't defend those points within a rational means yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
It's like me saying that a more rational person believes that dogs taste like chocolate, and showing the steps that lead to that conclusion. Someone argues a few of those steps and thus the conclusion brought about from those steps. If I can't defend the steps that I used to get to the conclusion (ie, people have different perceptions of taste), then I can't claim that I have the more rational conclusion without being a liar.
So no, it's not out of context.
It'd be different if you said that it's "a" rational view, but going out of your way to say that a rational person "should" believe this, and "should" believe that. If you replaced it with "could", then I wouldn't be arguing what you're implying rational people "should" do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
I believe myself to be a rational person, and I have arguments as to why I should follow the points that you've laid out. Very specifically, the gambling part, where you assert that a more rational person does such and such in considering bets. Yes, that's true, but you claim the more rational person places his bet on God, when it's obvious that neither of us knows they expected value of the bet, nor the cost. For the sake of debate, we can assume that it's a 50/50 toss up between created vs not created, but even that we don't know for sure.
Odds are created from known information. Since we don't *know*, we shouldn't even assume the odds are 50/50.
I stated the philosophy. I didn't create it. The philosophers who created it claimed that a more rational person blah blah. Perhaps it should be mitigated into could believe. Like i said, i can't defend all the criticisms against it because i didn't create it. There are criticisms for everything, it depends on the conclusion. Do the criticisms outweigh the proposals sufficiently enough to discredit the theories? Imo, no, there are not enough criticisms to change my opinion on the matter. Imo, there are more proposals in favour of God then against, therefore, imo, more evidence that there is a God instead of there isn't. This is what we have to go by, since without definitive proof we can only speculate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
The afterlife provides an infinte reward, which a rational gamber seeks because he looks to improve his earnings or his winnings over the long run, since the afterlife is eternal, his reward is infinte. Unlike athiesm, which offers a finite reward. You die, that's it. Out of the two possibilities, i choose the infinite reward and i believe i am rational for doing so.
The odds are 50/50, either God exists or doesn't.
So you're saying it makes you feel better to believe there's more to life than...life itself?
I just see this whole gambling perspective where you feel the odds are better to live one way rather than another a little bit of a weird reason to hold a certain belief.
Maybe its just me
It's not the only reason, it's one of many. I look forward to the afterlife, some may not.
may provide an infinite award, may provide infinite punishment. This is one of the faulty assumptions that you have. You don't know this, you think it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
I don't want to become catty, but you're not reading a word I'm saying if you still think this way. The reward is UNKNOWN. People have made claims to a reward, but no one can know for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Again, it seems you're not paying attention to a single word. Being right and getting the best reward are not the same. There could be a God whose requirement for an afterlife is scepticism and disbelief. So even if the atheist is wrong, in this case, they win the prize that you're going after, and you get a really bad one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Odds, again, are made from known information. If I asked you if I was wearing a sock, to you it would be a 50/50 guess, but in reality, I either am or I am not. Why is it that I can get the question right 100% of the time if the odds to you are 50/50? Because the odds aren't 50/50. Odds *really* only work for things that haven't happened yet. I'm pretty sure the verdict for creating the universe is already in, we just don't know that verdict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Having said that, even if we assume the odds are 50/50 (which we have to because we have no information), belief in God doesn't guarantee the best prize, it could bank you the worst prize, being the negative infinite award.
You need to separate the idea of a GOD, with the idea of a Xian God. They share the same requirements of GOD status, but they are not the same.
Do I have to write you a flow chart or a matrix for you to stop saying that you have the best odds? You only believe you have the best odds because you aren't considering all of the information and possibilities, which I've pointed out at least three times in this thread.
I guess nobody wanted to answer my question. Oh well.
Wtf, everyone seems really keen on discussing their parents having sex :wtf:
To me this thread seems like a false poll. You're asking whether or not we believe in creation. I don't. I believe in evolution. I got here because of the evolution of the human race. Every birth is a step, be it a small one, to even greater and more advanced human beings. Does it not strike you odd how we've not always been gifted with electricity and indoor plumbing? These things came with time. We evolved far enough to understand and comprehend things we simply could not 1,000 years ago. That's how I see it, anyway. Sorry if I came off a little aggressive, it's early in the morning and I'm getting ready to take a nap. :jointsmile:
The poll is over: Other is the winner.
I may or may not have been created by God. I personally choose to believe the teachings of Jesus Christ and Jah. Therefore i believe and have faith there is an afterlife where i will become one with God.
Thank you all for participating in this thread, i've said basically all i need to say and want to say. I don't feel like refuting anymore criticisms because it shall only end in an infinte regress.
Peace to all humanity.
I'd like to know a Sane and justified answer too, without using a bible as "proof".Quote:
Originally Posted by mfqr