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A path to faith with science
foskers said:
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Ahhh...nothing better to stir up controversy and anger than a religious post on a board full of "I don't give a fucks"...
Me being one of them...
I have no time for religion or god. Ever since the age of 8 I've been FORCED to go to church due to some bullshit scripture stating "As for me and my house, we will serve the lord."
Yet the reason god gives us the choice between heaven and hell is because he loves us and wants us to have that freedom. WHY exactly isn't that same thought applied to my having to go to church? You tell me.
I got no problems with religion and church and god and shit...but when people try to force it on me...I get pissed. Lol...
DO NOT think that that last sentence was aimed at you because I know it was my own choice to view this thread...I just wanted to put forth my ideas and beliefs the same as you.
Besides...the bible teaches that you should obey gods law first...then the law of the land. Smoking marijuana is illegal. Your breaking a law of the land. And in doing so...breaking gods law. Therefore you are sinning...excuse?
I understand how you feel foskers. When I was a kid my dad tried to force me to go to church too. I felt the people at his church didn't have real love and were fake. And I was right. When I got older I just wouldn't go and my Dad would lock the house and not let me back inside. I think it just pushes people farther away from God, I think God wants people to come to him on his own. It's not wrong to ask your child to come to church, but if they really really don't want to go they should just let them be and let them receive the consequences of their actions good or bad. But that doesn't mean a parent must stop raising them or teaching them what's right or wrong. And it doesn't mean a child doesn't have to listen or obey the rules of the household. I'm sorry that happened to you, and as I know that most professing Christians are fake and don't have the real love of Jesus that just makes it more confusing and heart wrenching and frustrating.
I hope that you recognize that the God of the bible isn't fake and he's got true and pure love.
As for my using cannabis, please refer to my response in the macro evolution thread # 44.
http://boards.cannabis.com/spiritual...xamples-2.html
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A path to faith with science
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If you are going to use insults, and call me unreasonable and the like, then like you I will not waste my time speaking with you anymore.
Its obvious you werent looking for a discussion, you just wanted to state your beliefs and give the illusion that you wanted to listen and discuss things with others.
I come to these posts for the discussions, and to learn more about other posters, and see things from a different point of view. Even in this post I was able to gain a bit that I didnt know before. If you arent even willing to hold a discussion, then thank you for the bit of time you shared, and Ill note not to worry about attempting any sort of discussion with you again.
As a note though, its not very consistant to state that you will save your arguements for someone more reasonable, and then begin to argue against my views and post anyways.
You've said some things yourself that are not very nice either. Things that attack my beliefs and attack God. That makes me angry. ANd it makes me angry when my faith has been so often called blind when in reality they're the ones who often have blind faith. I don't think you were being reasonable. And it honestly wasn't my intention to verbally abuse you, and I apolagise that it came out that way. I'm sorry.
Yes I want to have conversations not just preach from a pulpit. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings and I hope to converse with you again. Have good day.
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A path to faith with science
Yes but the problem is where do you draw the line?
So much in the bible is lost in translation, or simply taken in a variety of senses. How do you seperate Gods law from mans Law?
The pope is against the use of condoms, but I can't seem to pinpoint a black and white area of teh bible that supports this "law", not to mention countless other religions who deem them okay. Contraception didn't even exist when the bible was written so how could it be outlawed.
(Unless we read a wee bit harder, I think I remeber somthing about "Thou shalt be smiteth is he whom wlaks on the earth with the iPod 90gb, and the lord shall bring down mighty vengance on those downloading music for free")
;)
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
You've said some things yourself that are not very nice either. Things that attack my beliefs and attack God. That makes me angry. ANd it makes me angry when my faith has been so often called blind when in reality they're the ones who often have blind faith. I don't think you were being reasonable. And it honestly wasn't my intention to verbally abuse you, and I apolagise that it came out that way. I'm sorry.
Yes I want to have conversations not just preach from a pulpit. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings and I hope to converse with you again. Have good day.
I guess that is just where we differ then.
I have no problems with people calling into question my beliefs and views, I think it gives me a chance to better learn about myself, and to see other points of view from a decent perspective.
As a note though, I wasnt attacking anyone, not even a specific religion, with what I said. I was merely pointing out inconsistancies, and random thoughts I had in regards to them. There are so many other, easier ways to attack christianity then what I said, if it was my intent, I would imagine I would have stuck to the tried and true methods.
I have "faith" in very little in my life. I accept that I know very little, and that everything I "know" could very well all be false.
If someone is questioning, or "attacking" your beliefs and faith, I would imagine it would be something to be grateful for. It gives you a chance to defend what you believe in, and in doing so, makes your faith stronger, and more solid, as you were able to flesh out a way to explain your point of view to another, and in turn understood more about your faith as well.
If something, or someone, cant stand up to the scrutiny and questioning of others, how strong can it be? I understand the dislike of people calling into doubt something you strongly believe in, as I am sure most do, but if your faith is weak enough for them doing so to harm it, there are greater problems on your hand. This is just speculation, but I would not find it hard to believe if your God encouraged questioning his word and his religion, to see what else is out there, with the hope that you still choose christianity over the rest, but having done so with a real understanding of everything that is out there. (This is not to say that any of this applies, or is directed to you persay)
It was a question I always had when I was going through some of my classes... how can people be so certain that a specific religion is the perfect one for them, if they havent experienced but a sliver at best, of all the religions out there. They would have no idea if another religion was better for them, made more sense to them, and garnered more of their belief, if they never knew about it, right?
I mean, even if they were immensely satisfied, and happy with everything that their religion was bringing them, enough so that they feel like it could never get any better... what if there was another religion that would have made them feel even better? Its hard to ever know in situations like that, and it is a bit of a burden in the realm of time spent to explore even a small portion of the religions out there... and I mean truely explore. To take the time to read the scriptures for the religion, to understand teh background, and the history, and to try to truely understand the religion and most aspects of it. A general glance wont do you any good, you cant know what it truely is like at a glance, or by taking another persons word for it.
I come from a strongly religious family, and I understand the resistance to real debate and dissection of a persons religion. Because in the end, even though it is nothing more then true faith, people dont like to admit that they believe in something which they can not prove anything about. They know its faith, but they dont want to admit that they have nothing more then faith as proof. Its an interesting little cycle. My family was extremely dismayed, to put it lightly, with my choice to no longer follow the roman catholic faith, and even more upset when I changed my major way back when to Philosophy and World Religions.
They did not like to hear about other religions, how they did things, or how things were different in comparison to catholicism. They did not like the questions, they did not like the focus on everything involved with their religion. It truely bothered them to be fully questioned in every sense of the word about their faith and religion. At the time, I didnt understand it, today, I understand it a bit better, but I am sure I still miss the subtle nuances involved. Even with understanding why they acted as such, I still dont "understand it" if you get what I mean. I know why they do it, but it still doesnt make much sense to me, basically.
This question is directed entirely towards you natureisawesome... You believe strongly in your religion, your faith is very strong, correct? You also believe that chrisitianity is "right", and wish to make others see so as well, to save them, correct? If this is the case, how much time have you spent looking into other religions? Exploring everything out there with yours, including reading up on some of the more amazing religious philosophers for chrisitanity? Really, what I am asking is, for all the certainty and strength of conviction you have with your beliefs and religion, how much have you tried to test your faith, and explore what is out there? If you havent explored much in the way of what else is out there, how do you personally know that christianity is the proper path for you?
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A path to faith with science
To imitator,
On one hand I don't have a problem with challenging my beliefs because as you pointed on it gives me an opportunity to witness to them and share ideas and information they may not have heard before or may have been so devastated by the wretchedness of this world to look for themselves. But on the other hand, when people attack my belief I become very angry because I am sure and convinced in my heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God is good and he doesn't deserve all the junk that people give him. Besides, it's like I told my friend once, you lash out at God, but even if the God of the bible isn't the true God you are willingly ignorant of the nature of this universe which obviously shows his character, and willingly ignorant of the spiritual Truth that has been revealed to you through your conscience. I think that's the most frustrating thing for me really. That's why I said to you that I felt you were being unreasonable. Because it's just a total farce how people pretend to not recognize all the evidence of God in the natural world. I don't need to get a phd in biology to see it. God make it so that you can have faith, that you have a logical and reasonable basis for your faith right now, with no delay. It may be not the greatest faith, but with time it is sure to grow.
I rejected my parents Christianity when I was younger and turned to the counterculture hoping to find the answers. I wanted the truth. I wanted the real answers. I was so sick of my parents bull and the worlds bull and everyone's nonsense I was furiated. But at the same time I was hurt and had a natural tendency to to things that were selfish and my being brought up in this world and culture I'm in trained me to recognize certain matters of morality that when examined did not hold true but simply fell apart. I was hurt and turned away from Christianity both because of what I believe my selfish nature and because of the false Christianity that's so evident in this word.
So I went out and tried to experience other ways of life and different perspectives. Hippies, bums, stoner's, rockers, I met them all and observed what went on in this world. And I found that while in some ways they did not amount to the wretched fake love and righteousness of my parents, they were all full of bull too. Nobody had any clear answers. It was all smoke and mirrors and deception and vanity. Oh so much vanity.
So more and more the realization dawned on me, until it bloomed into a wonderful realization. I realized that if there is a God, he must be someone reasonable, someone that has pure love. Someone who understands us and how we feel and created us for a purpose. More than anything I wanted a real purpose, something bigger than myself, something that would rescue me from the insanity of this world. Something clear and understandable, and a path to walk that brings forth the fruit desired. In the world, I found only a never ending circle of vanity. I still remember in my vanity, sitting on the bus in an ignorant display of romanticism and philosophic ism reading some philosophical book of nonsense trying to explain God's nature without any divine revelation. It was just nothing. There was no true substance. Nothing to hold onto. I realized it was all a big fat lie.
So my heart in a way, led my to God's word. I read it and I read Jesus' words. And I read his words I recognized in my heart that the words coming out of his mouth was unlike anything I'd ever heard in my life. He had a real way, that reaped real fruit. Not a blind way or in any way full of the foolishness and vanity of this world. He wouldn't give in to the bull of the people, and their willing ignorance. He was true to the death. And I recognized that no one else ever spoke like him. There never was anyone quite like him. He was reasonable, blameless and full of kindness. And he knew exactly where he was going. And I knew then that he was the light, and that everything I know about this world, the nature of the universe and the corruption of mankind and fitting with what I know, deeper than anyone knows by sight that this man is the way and he has the light and he is the light.
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This question is directed entirely towards you natureisawesome... You believe strongly in your religion, your faith is very strong, correct? You also believe that Christianity is "right", and wish to make others see so as well, to save them, correct? If this is the case, how much time have you spent looking into other religions? Exploring everything out there with yours, including reading up on some of the more amazing religious philosophers for Christianity? Really, what I am asking is, for all the certainty and strength of conviction you have with your beliefs and religion, how much have you tried to test your faith, and explore what is out there? If you haven't explored much in the way of what else is out there, how do you personally know that Christianity is the proper path for you?
I have heard this reasoning before. I don't choose a religion because it's the best one. Best doesn't mean the true one. If the true religion was some very small religion that you would have to search for, then I suppose I would have searched longer and studied more religions than I have to this point. But here's another thing about it. It's true that there are hundreds and hundreds of religions out there. But they can all be split up into much fewer such as pantheism, monotheism, polytheism etc.
Some people say, don't knock it till you've tried it. But this statement is unreasonable. There are many things we never do to see how much we like it because we know from simple observation and using our common sense that it's not good.
It all starts with a conviction. And your conviction can be right and logical and based on careful observation, or it can be based on ignorance and selfishness and a bad attitude. So I took my conviction to the bible to check it out. And from the beginning and then more and more I found my faith being built up and confirmed more and more by what I learned in the bible and from the outside world.
And it's hard to explain to some people, because somethings some people just don't understand the way you do, like when a parent tells his children not to do something and they just don't understand. But I have learned so much, and I know in my heart with a knowledge deeper than what any other sense can know that my faith is true.
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A path to faith with science
I think that anyone who has had any serious studies in biology or medicine cannot deny that there is an intelligent creative force behind what we call "Life". To do so is just plain ignorant. For what purpose would evolution bring along delicately balanced, complex and intelligent beings? If evolution and random chemical reactions were all that existed, wouldn't the path of less resistance be taken? We would not be humans, we would all just be rocks lying around. Rocks and other inanimate objects outlast everything living, so according to evolutionary law....there is no sense in evolving for millions of years to be something that can be destroyed in 48hs. due to someting as pasive lack of water intake.
Now, as to who the Inteligent Creative Force really is, and what religion has dibbs on the "Right to be the Only True Religion"... well the scope of such a debate cannot be fully carried out by long posts and witty replies. At most what can be done is an exposition of all pertinent info about major religions in an unbiased fashion, and leave it at that. Let the people beleive what they will. Anything else is stirring up a hornet's nest.
When considering what religion to believe in, if any, you should ask yourself: Why should I not beleive in this religion? Instead of choosing one right off the bat, choose them all and learn about them and then eliminate them one after the other according to any flaws or contradictions. As for rock solid proof of the authenticity of one religion over the others, there is none and you will never find any. True proof comes from within, and it is called Faith.
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A path to faith with science
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When considering what religion to believe in, if any, you should ask yourself: Why should I not beleive in this religion? Instead of choosing one right off the bat, choose them all and learn about them and then eliminate them one after the other according to any flaws or contradictions. As for rock solid proof of the authenticity of one religion over the others, there is none and you will never find any.
I wouldn't choose them ALL , that's dangerous. I think that's kind of the opposite. But to take from what you're saying sort of I would say you could get the information about them in a concise and summarized fashion and compare them with each other. If I was still seeking the right religion, then I would defenitely not close my mind to considering any of them before I've even considered them.
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True proof comes from within, and it is called Faith.
I would say that true faith is the logical extension of what we see and observe in the outside world and within ourseves especially.
Later.
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by Arc_of_Light
Now, as to who the Inteligent Creative Force really is, and what religion has dibbs on the "Right to be the Only True Religion"... well the scope of such a debate cannot be fully carried out by long posts and witty replies. At most what can be done is an exposition of all pertinent info about major religions in an unbiased fashion, and leave it at that. Let the people beleive what they will. Anything else is stirring up a hornet's nest.
I personally dont see why a pantheon of sorts isnt possibly the correct answer, if any is.
Just as christianity can say that there is plenty of evidence in this world to prove that what they believe in is true, so can many many other religions. Ignoring the incredibly long post I would have to make to explain my theory on gods and the creation of them... its not hard to fathom that perhaps the majority, or all of the worshiped gods exist. I always thought the part in 10 commandments "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", was a good sign that it was very possible.
I think I would be much more willing to accept and believe in a pantheon type setting then I would of just one religion being correct and all others before and after it are wrong. It just makes more sense.
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
So more and more the realization dawned on me, until it bloomed into a wonderful realization. I realized that if there is a God, he must be someone reasonable, someone that has pure love. Someone who understands us and how we feel and created us for a purpose. More than anything I wanted a real purpose, something bigger than myself, something that would rescue me from the insanity of this world. Something clear and understandable, and a path to walk that brings forth the fruit desired.
Are you sure this has NOTHING to do with your view of the world?
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Because it's just a total farce how people pretend to not recognize all the evidence of God in the natural world.
Yes, I realize this part of your post comes before the other part. Even so, it pretty much demonstrates the thought process. There was a time you felt empty, you found God, which was exactly the thing that you were hoping for. You wanted something bigger than you, a purpose, and to be rescued. Lo and behold, you found it in the Bible. Would you have ever adopted the Bible if you were content with your life? I can't say for sure, but probably not. It seems that the Bible only only became true when it fit your needs and desires
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
And it's hard to explain to some people, because somethings some people just don't understand the way you do, like when a parent tells his children not to do something and they just don't understand. But I have learned so much, and I know in my heart with a knowledge deeper than what any other sense can know that my faith is true.
I stopped blindly listening to my parents as soon as I developed a thing called reasoning. If my parents didn't have a valid reason for my doing or not doing something, they had to explain it to me. If they didn't have a valid reason, then there's obviously no need to follow the commands. And i was hardly a rebellious kid, i just figured that things need reasoning behind them.
nice try equating yourself with the concerned parent only looking out for the ignorant children, but parent's aren't always right, and we're not children.
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A path to faith with science
Religious arrogance, pride, and selfrighteousness will destroy organized religion. When will it end? It ends when the 'message' of Christ is realized. Love, equality, acceptance, forgiveness, life ...
Will the faithless ever see? Will the bible thumpers come to see? After they experience true Grace, I think they might. It depends upon their willingness to receive, understand, embrace and follow something pure.
:twocents:
Love
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A path to faith with science
I'm not sure there would be an argument if those arguing didn't either feel superior, threatened, or maybe even a little insecure.
Junk,
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by JunkYard
I'm not sure there would be an argument if those arguing didn't either feel superior, threatened, or maybe even a little insecure.
Junk,
You can argue without feeling any of those things. Not to say that isn't some people's motivation, but they certainly aren't mine.
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A path to faith with science
A person can certainly debate a topic without these motivators. I think argument is something different altogether, tho. I don't know your heart bro, so I cannot comment on your motivation, but more often than not these are the roots for argument.
What's the topic, anyway? :D
Junk
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A path to faith with science
I think most of it in this one is stemming from people disagreeing with other people's logic.
Science literally means knowledge, faith is the lack thereof, so I don't exactly know how the thread starter proposes jumping from trying to acquire more knowledge to just having faith, or even if that's the intent at all.
In any case, I disagree with many assumptions being used as fact that the thread starter is making, so I call them into question.
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A path to faith with science
Science is a study of facts; faith is more like [experiencing] something unseen, unverifiable in scientific terms.
The bible defines it as this:
Faith is the [substance] of things hoped for, and the [evidence] of things not seen. Only through personal experience can one come to faith. There are those whos faith is blind, lacking any evidence; those who follow for sake of following, hoping without substance, so to speak. (Vanity in its worst form, imo.) Blah!!
We all have science, Hardcore. A sound Faith however, is not so easily attained; it comes from experience.
Junk
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A path to faith with science
I like that idea. Is it saying that no one can convince you from your path except something supernatural?
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A path to faith with science
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A path to faith with science
This doesn't prove that God exists on any level. This is just explaining that we are alive, and that it is a miracle that we are alive. It's the same thing as intelligent design, except you explain it in-depth and lightly dabble on science. Science and God cannot be combined, because there is no real science that can prove it or disprove it, otherwise we would have already been able to prove or disprove it to everyone.
My mind is not changed. I will remain agnostic. I used to be a christian, but to me it's all just bullshit. What I truly think the people who wrote the bible saw were aliens from other planets, who were visiting us at the time. It's a fact that people in those times saw alien spacecraft, because there are drawings of them. It would certainly make sense for people back then to believe it was some sort of God.
I truly believe that this sort of thing was indeed written in the bible, however, it was removed from it. Yes, your bibles are edited. Why wouldn't they be? Don't you see that religion is just another system of control that has controlled the whole world for a millenium? Look at all the wars that have been started purely because one other set of people did not believe in that particular religion. A loving God wants to spread the word of him through conquest? Give me a break. No, I don't think Satan did it.
Religion has been the most powerful and effective system of control for thousands of years... and it still controls the world effectively. Look at what the Evangelicals are trying to accomplish. That's right, they want to control our government, and get rid of the separation of the church and state. Yes, let's all go back to medieval times where religion ruled all, and if you didn't believe in christianity or catholicism, you were a demon and had to be dealt with. Give me a break!
Anyway, I am not trying to offend anyone, just saying what I think. If you took any offense to it, I apologize.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in the supernatural. I, however, do not believe there is much of a probability of there being a God. It's possible, sure, but very improbable - at least in my eyes.
There's no reason to believe in religion unless you can't find happiness yourself, or you don't understand how to abide by your own set of morals. It's for sheep!
Again, I apologize if I offended anyone.
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A path to faith with science
I guess many things could be supernatural. talking donkeys for one. I really have a problem with that :p
But, if a donkey (which I've only seen in person a couple of time, I used to live in the country) talked to me, would I accept that as something that could *only* be explained by a higher power? or would i say that it could have been me... not hallucinating, because that draws comparisons to drugs, but daydreaming?
I honestly don't know. I guess it'd all depend on how surprised I was and how real it seemed. I guess what the donkey had to say would be important to. If it said "get a sandwich"..... hehe
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
I guess many things could be supernatural. talking donkeys for one. I really have a problem with that :p
But, if a donkey (which I've only seen in person a couple of time, I used to live in the country) talked to me, would I accept that as something that could *only* be explained by a higher power? or would i say that it could have been me... not hallucinating, because that draws comparisons to drugs, but daydreaming?
I honestly don't know. I guess it'd all depend on how surprised I was and how real it seemed. I guess what the donkey had to say would be important to. If it said "get a sandwich"..... hehe
It doesn't have to be attributed to some god or divine entity. That could be attributed to the supernatural, however. Or perhaps it could be attributed to evolution. Maybe somehow that donkey was a very rare breed who has evolved beyond all the others, and had gained enough intelligence to speak in a human way! Haha.
Ghosts, and whatever, I believe in (at least there's some sort of visual evidence of this, many around the world have claimed to see ghosts - but nobody has ever claimed to see God, only "feel" his presence. Of course, that's just them tricking themselves). I believe in the astral plane, all that stuff. I don't believe in a divine entity, because there's no reason to. Am I afraid to go to hell? No. If there was a god, I would go to hell... and that's fine with me. At least I would have lived my life the way I want to, rather than listening to some dude in a church, whose only want is to get your money from the donation plate. Lol, it's so lame. Religion is cult-like, doesn't anyone realize this? Brainwashed. I believe religion should be abolished from this Earth forever. What REAL good has it caused? Looking at it in the whole, throughout millenia, what good has it caused? Tell me. Wars to spread the influence and control of it? Is that good? Maybe to Satan, right, because he must have caused those wars. Haha.
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by mfqr
It doesn't have to be attributed to some god or divine entity. That could be attributed to the supernatural, however. Or perhaps it could be attributed to evolution. Maybe somehow that donkey was a very rare breed who has evolved beyond all the others, and had gained enough intelligence to speak in a human way! Haha.
I think this is why I'd be very hard to convince. For any event, there are a multitude of explanations on how it can occur. Maybe there was in ipod hidden in the donkey's hair, and it was chewing to look exactly like the words that it 'spoke' to me. There are tonnes of possibilities, it seems like whenever there's something we can't explain, people (in general) jump straight to god.
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie
I guess many things could be supernatural. talking donkeys for one. I really have a problem with that :p
But, if a donkey (which I've only seen in person a couple of time, I used to live in the country) talked to me, would I accept that as something that could *only* be explained by a higher power? or would i say that it could have been me... not hallucinating, because that draws comparisons to drugs, but daydreaming?
I honestly don't know. I guess it'd all depend on how surprised I was and how real it seemed. I guess what the donkey had to say would be important to. If it said "get a sandwich"..... hehe
I don't think you'll ever hear a donkey tell you to get a sandwich, haha! That would just be weird, or even a snake tricking you into eating a peice of fruit. ;)
Supernatural to me, is that realm where things cannot be verified through science. Things like spirits, on the lower scale [emotion] on a higher, [honesty] and [love] and [compassion]. Can we know their substance? What they are made of? No, but we can experience them subjectively. This to me is supernatural. Same with God and faith.
We try to make things complicated, or religious leaders do so in attempt to gain control. Christ on the other hand simply told us to love one another as he loved us. [without condition]
It is an amazing thing when you come to a point where love permeates your being...It is an amazing [experience] through which my faith has been established. That is 'supernatural'
Junk
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A path to faith with science
if your talking about god, i'm him.
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by jammin26
if your talking about god, i'm him.
Are you that I Am?
Or are you that Am Not?
Doesn't really matter friend
unless you got some pot.
:D
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A path to faith with science
hello natureisawesome, ive read that post and some of that stuff is interesting. to be honest only the stuff about the universe i.e outside of the world - really catches my attention. the sort of mind i have, i will read sections of that and seriously wonder. whether you copied it out of a book, who know's, but if youve haven't that's good. heres what i think, lifes fucking rediculos god is dead. there aint spirituality anymore. society is shit i need a spliff to see any good which is wrong . i know no one i have no friends but heres the riff baby... im god... baby im the mutha fuckin G.O.D till im dead which is gonna be a fuckin long time unless some cunt fucks me or i get run over or some shit then i'll see whats on the other side of this shit.
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A path to faith with science
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A path to faith with science
Imitator said:
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I personally dont see why a pantheon of sorts isnt possibly the correct answer, if any is.
Just as christianity can say that there is plenty of evidence in this world to prove that what they believe in is true, so can many many other religions. Ignoring the incredibly long post I would have to make to explain my theory on gods and the creation of them... its not hard to fathom that perhaps the majority, or all of the worshiped gods exist. I always thought the part in 10 commandments "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", was a good sign that it was very possible.
I think I would be much more willing to accept and believe in a pantheon type setting then I would of just one religion being correct and all others before and after it are wrong. It just makes more sense.
I would write back to this, but first remember that It was adressed in the original post.
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
So more and more the realization dawned on me, until it bloomed into a wonderful realization. I realized that if there is a God, he must be someone reasonable, someone that has pure love. Someone who understands us and how we feel and created us for a purpose. More than anything I wanted a real purpose, something bigger than myself, something that would rescue me from the insanity of this world. Something clear and understandable, and a path to walk that brings forth the fruit desired.
Hardcore newbie:
Are you sure this has NOTHING to do with your view of the world?
Of course it has to do with my view of the world. But my logic, conscience and common sense and observation worked to help me come to that conclusion. I recognise my bias.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Because it's just a total farce how people pretend to not recognize all the evidence of God in the natural world.
Hardcore newbie:
Yes, I realize this part of your post comes before the other part. Even so, it pretty much demonstrates the thought process. There was a time you felt empty, you found God, which was exactly the thing that you were hoping for. You wanted something bigger than you, a purpose, and to be rescued. Lo and behold, you found it in the Bible. Would you have ever adopted the Bible if you were content with your life? I can't say for sure, but probably not. It seems that the Bible only only became true when it fit your needs and desires
Why do so many always give the doubtful answer from the beginning. If my needs and desire were and are valid, which thier is no logical reason why they couldn't be, then the scenario would have be very similar to the scenario you gave above. That is, it would appear from an outside observer.
well, If you're doubtful of your own conscience then you'll probably be doubtful of others. But it's just one of those human experiences than nobody denies. Except this one they do.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
And it's hard to explain to some people, because somethings some people just don't understand the way you do, like when a parent tells his children not to do something and they just don't understand. But I have learned so much, and I know in my heart with a knowledge deeper than what any other sense can know that my faith is true.
hardcore newbie:
I stopped blindly listening to my parents as soon as I developed a thing called reasoning. If my parents didn't have a valid reason for my doing or not doing something, they had to explain it to me. If they didn't have a valid reason, then there's obviously no need to follow the commands. And i was hardly a rebellious kid, i just figured that things need reasoning behind them.
I believe in having a mind of your own, and testing things to see if they hold to be true, but i also beleive in listening to your parents and obeying them because they're your parents and they have authority over you and you would want your kids to be obedient children as well. That doesn't mean you have to be a robot and just belive what everbody says though.
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nice try equating yourself with the concerned parent only looking out for the ignorant children, but parent's aren't always right, and we're not children.
I thought you might take it that way. I never meant it that way. I was only using that as an example because the older person has had experiences that the younger hasn't and doesn't understand the same way.
No, I'm not your parent.
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A path to faith with science
Junkyard said:
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Religious arrogance, pride, and selfrighteousness will destroy organized religion. When will it end? It ends when the 'message' of Christ is realized. Love, equality, acceptance, forgiveness, life ...
Will the faithless ever see? Will the bible thumpers come to see? After they experience true Grace, I think they might. It depends upon their willingness to receive, understand, embrace and follow something pure.
True grace is found in Jesus Christ. And Love forgiveness and understanding too.
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A path to faith with science
OZo:
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This argument falls apart when causal relationships are assumed. As many philosophers have already pointed out.
Please elaborate.
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A path to faith with science
Junkyard:
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I'm not sure there would be an argument if those arguing didn't either feel superior, threatened, or maybe even a little insecure
Or maybe I'm just trying to do something good like save your soul. Why does it so often turned negative? Why so often the negative response first .
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A path to faith with science
Junkyard:
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A person can certainly debate a topic without these motivators. I think argument is something different altogether, tho. I don't know your heart bro, so I cannot comment on your motivation, but more often than not these are the roots for argument.
I don't want to argue at all. It's better than nothing but it's really the opposite direction I want to go.
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A path to faith with science
hardcore newbie:
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Science literally means knowledge, faith is the lack thereof, so I don't exactly know how the thread starter proposes jumping from trying to acquire more knowledge to just having faith, or even if that's the intent at all.
In any case, I disagree with many assumptions being used as fact that the thread starter is making, so I call them into question.
Scientific evidence can lead to faith. The observations and logic and common sense lead to faith. So your faith has a foundation.
You mean the axioms in my post? Please elaborate.
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A path to faith with science
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Junkyard said:
Science is a study of facts; faith is more like [experiencing] something unseen, unverifiable in scientific terms.
It's just what I said earlier in the post, true faith is a logical extention of the evidence of this world. In another part of the bible it says
" 2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. "
You see this casts light on why we walk by faith and not by sight. God gives us a recognition of his eternal nature, but we can't see him and so we have to believe in him without sight. Our outside bodily senses can't grasp something like that.
Recognise before I said you couldn't validate anything for a fact the way imitator wanted it unless you're eternal. Well we're not eternal ourselves but we recognise God is and that encompasses everything ( but we can't see Giod so we walk by faith ). and compare and use logic with the evidence of the outside world and you have both spiritual evidence and material evidence, spiritual being the greater ( but not without the material).
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A path to faith with science
hardcore newbie:
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I like that idea. Is it saying that no one can convince you from your path except something supernatural?
To convince you to a path to God, I would say you need recognition of his spiritual nature I think we need that to interperet our outside observations to recognise him, and tro recognise him in our hearts. How else would you recognise spiritual but with spiritual ?
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Junkyard:
Or maybe I'm just trying to do something good like save your soul. Why does it so often turned negative? Why so often the negative response first .
Realize this, natureisawsome: Only through Christ and by the Grace of God are we saved (This is my beleif) Salvation cannot, nor should it be forced upon anyone. We come to it in our own time, on our own terms, and only by the grace of God. We, as Christians, merely plant the seeds.
I'm afraid that by insisting others come to your stand, you are driving them away. Understand that they do not posses what you posses, bro. Try to remember when you were lost, and how you came to understand the Grace of God. Did it come with a conversation? Did it come through an argument, or debate?
I don't know your motivation; I only get a glimps of you from what you post. You may be trying to save souls, but that is not your charge. Your charge, as a Christian, is to simply spread the good news of the kingdom, assuming you are aware of that kingdom.
You have friends here, and I Am One of them.
Love
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
It's just what I said earlier in the post, true faith is a logical extention of the evidence of this world. In another part of the bible it says
" 2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. "
You see this casts light on why we walk by faith and not by sight. God gives us a recognition of his eternal nature, but we can't see him and so we have to believe in him without sight. Our outside bodily senses can't grasp something like that.
Recognise before I said you couldn't validate anything for a fact the way imitator wanted it unless you're eternal. Well we're not eternal ourselves but we recognise God is and that encompasses everything ( but we can't see Giod so we walk by faith ). and compare and use logic with the evidence of the outside world and you have both spiritual evidence and material evidence, spiritual being the greater ( but not without the material).
Well said
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A path to faith with science
mfqr:
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This doesn't prove that God exists on any level. This is just explaining that we are alive, and that it is a miracle that we are alive. It's the same thing as intelligent design, except you explain it in-depth and lightly dabble on science. Science and God cannot be combined, because there is no real science that can prove it or disprove it, otherwise we would have already been able to prove or disprove it to everyone.
A person has to be open for something to be proven to them. There can be proof, but we value in our minds and hearts what's reasonable as proof. SOme people see things with their own eyes and it's not proof enough. For some people with some things their never enough proof. It's just a lack of faith, it's not reasonable or logical.
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My mind is not changed. I will remain agnostic. I used to be a christian, but to me it's all just bullshit. What I truly think the people who wrote the bible saw were aliens from other planets, who were visiting us at the time. It's a fact that people in those times saw alien spacecraft, because there are drawings of them. It would certainly make sense for people back then to believe it was some sort of God.
can you show me some examples?
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I truly believe that this sort of thing was indeed written in the bible, however, it was removed from it. Yes, your bibles are edited. Why wouldn't they be? Don't you see that religion is just another system of control that has controlled the whole world for a millenium? Look at all the wars that have been started purely because one other set of people did not believe in that particular religion. A loving God wants to spread the word of him through conquest? Give me a break. No, I don't think Satan did it.
Excuse me, but about those aliens in the bible.. can you show me some evidence please?
And are you referring to the catholic church ? I already pointed out that the catholic church isn't Christian earlier in this thread. They're not Christian and Jesus did not teach us to have any kind of physcial warfare, the opposite actually. If you want me to explain a few things about the catholic babylon mystery religion another thread can be started about that later. ( Like when thsi thread is done at least), but otherwise let's leave the rcc out of this.
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Religion has been the most powerful and effective system of control for thousands of years... and it still controls the world effectively. Look at what the Evangelicals are trying to accomplish. That's right, they want to control our government, and get rid of the separation of the church and state. Yes, let's all go back to medieval times where religion ruled all, and if you didn't believe in christianity or catholicism, you were a demon and had to be dealt with. Give me a break!
The evangicals and everyone else who votes in a Democracy all judge easch other through the ballot so everyone is guilty. But again, evangicals are obviously not Christians either. And I know their false doctrine.
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There's no reason to believe in religion unless you can't find happiness yourself, or you don't understand how to abide by your own set of morals. It's for sheep!
I will reiterate a previous declaration in my post. There is no morality without God. And yes, I'm a sheep and I'd rather be a sheep than a wolf.
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A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Of course it has to do with my view of the world. But my logic, conscience and common sense and observation worked to help me come to that conclusion. I recognise my bias.
So why did you say that you think it's a total farce that people "pretend" to not recognize the existence of god? Other people might not have the same needs as you.[/quote]
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Why do so many always give the doubtful answer from the beginning. If my needs and desire were and are valid, which thier is no logical reason why they couldn't be, then the scenario would have be very similar to the scenario you gave above. That is, it would appear from an outside observer.
well, If you're doubtful of your own conscience then you'll probably be doubtful of others. But it's just one of those human experiences than nobody denies. Except this one they do.
I'm not saying that you didn't have needs, I'm saying that *if* you didn't have the need to be rescued, you probably never would have turned to the Bible. It's only when you realized your needs that the bible became fact to you. Some people don't have those needs, so they don't need the bible in return.
And I'm not sure what you mean by being doubtful of my conscious. If it's just a hypothetical, then I'll spell it out and say I'm quite happy with my moral system and my thought process.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I thought you might take it that way. I never meant it that way. I was only using that as an example because the older person has had experiences that the younger hasn't and doesn't understand the same way.
No, I'm not your parent.
Yeah, and that view is very condescending. There are quite a few analogies you could have chosen, but the parent and child is the one that you chose.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
You mean the axioms in my post? Please elaborate.
without reading the entire post again, I'll try and show you a few.
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Why? If it designed and created all things, then it knows the details about all things. This attribute is called omniscience.
that's assuming that this being didn't just throw things together for amusement and surprise. A being wouldn't have to be all knowing to create the universe. really fucking smart? yes. inifinitely smart? not necessarily. I'm sure God could devise a way of creating randomness that not even God would know the outcome of. maybe God would understand it after the fact, but during the creation of say... sand, It just used a random number for the molecules and so on. And if this isn't a possibility, then God isn't all powerful anyways (inability to generate a truly random number).
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It also remains possible that none of them are correct and God has chosen to remain anonymous. But if God did want to be known, it is impossible that God might fail. God is omnipotent and omniscient including perfect knowledge of the future.It is impossible that a perfectly powerful and all knowing God would fail to accomplish any goal. Now, where does that leave things?
If all the religions of the world are wrong, that makes God anonymous. Just because mankind has grasped the concept of deities, gods and God, that doesn't mean that we've found the right one. We might be close, but God could just be a prankster. Putting out ideas for everyone to grasp, everything but the right one. Knowing as much as God does, you think It'd have to spice things up from time to time.
And again, the pantheism. You said in a subsequent post when I asked why the universe couldn't be "supernatural", you said that the atom was only natural. Yes, that's what evidence points to, I agree, but to think that there's no possibility of the contrary, no matter how small, it's still an assumption that you must make to continue the argument.
This thread deals with the concept of all powerful beings and all knowing beings conflicting with free will, so instead of having that argument here, feel free to comment on that in the other thread.
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I will reiterate a previous declaration in my post. There is no morality without God. And yes, I'm a sheep and I'd rather be a sheep than a wolf.
I also disagree with this. For many reasons. It's my assumptions that animals don't believe in deities, yet many of them get along fine. Sheep for example :)
There might be more, but that's what I'll post today.
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A path to faith with science
mfqr
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It doesn't have to be attributed to some god or divine entity. That could be attributed to the supernatural, however. Or perhaps it could be attributed to evolution. Maybe somehow that donkey was a very rare breed who has evolved beyond all the others, and had gained enough intelligence to speak in a human way! Haha.
Yes it could possibly be a hallucination. But if you saw a talking donkey, they by itself opens the possiblity that the donkey really did talk, especially if you're sober. But you can to also take in what you know about the rest of the universe take that into account too.
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Ghosts, and whatever, I believe in (at least there's some sort of visual evidence of this, many around the world have claimed to see ghosts - but nobody has ever claimed to see God
That's not true. Moses saw God's back when He hid in a rock. And Abraham saw God with angels. ( although not in all of his glory), and Jacob wrestled with him, and He has appeared to others in the bible including the around 400 people after he was risen from the dead, and in his glory with Peter James and John on the mountain with Moses and Elijah. And Jesus is God and lots of people saw him and saw him doing miracles and healings ( supernatural phenomena). So that's not true.
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I believe religion should be abolished from this Earth forever. What REAL good has it caused?
A lot. A lot of people have claimed to follow a religion and were evil and violent. That doesnt make the bible wrong. It makes people wrong. If the bible taught people to be evil, now that would be another story.
That's a pretty strong judgement there and the fact that you "haha" about this topic shows you're not giving it the seriousness and consideration it deserves. Whether God exists or doesn't it
s a very serious matter. Na there's lots of reason to belive in God.
